2.5 tdi v6 twin turbo project

eliasuk98 · Mar 8, 2011

hi,

as per my previous post i will be starting the project in the next couple of months so i think this is a good time to get all the dog work done and all the parts purchased.

i need advice on oil feed to the two kkk turbos,

1. would i just T- the existing oill feed pipe and split it to both turbos or create a new channel?

2. oil drain directly to the mid or lower sump?

3. position both turbos directly off the existing manifolds, will there be enough room on the b6 a4? or should i position them like the v6 rs4 b5 engine.

4. size of downpipe, i guess 3" for each head would be an overkill 2.5" should do?

5. head porting, i know Difas on this forum has achieved some good flow results almost 25% more flow, although i know stingray spoke about the heads already having a good flow, any knowledge whether porting to achieve around 350bhp and more is necessary.

6. did i read somewhere the the bosch cummins nozzles with a 143degree spray angle will work fine as it is only one degree of the original 142degree ones? dlla 143P894 has 800cc/30sec any good to see around 400bhp?

all the help and advice is most welcome.

thanks in advance

Diesel_Benz · Mar 8, 2011

A pair of VNT15's would be large for twin turbos on such a small engine, even 2.5" downpipes would be overkill.

1 degree spray angle is significant in direct injection. It can mean the difference between power and melted pistons.

eliasuk98 · Mar 9, 2011

i think in principle i cant see each head spinning up one kkk bv43 being a problem at all 4v per cylinder, in relation to my experience with a gt2559v on a 1.9pd, the turbo was designed for a 6cylinder 3.0 diesel, and the turbo spins up superbly. i think it should work but will never know for sure unless i try i guess. anymore info regards the turbos or anything i should be aware of is much appreciated

ForestTDI · Mar 9, 2011

Well, in my humble opinion, best way is to design it like Subaru on its "twinturbo" gas engine (sorry, dont know which one at this moment).

It is designed so, that in low rev everything runs thru smaller and after that bigger turbocharger. In middle rev opens the valve and it runs thru both turbochargers. In high rev everything thru bigger turbocharger (but now I am not sure if there is some valve which closes smaller turbocharger inlet or it is let to be spinned).

In this case I think that optimal could be hybrid like ARL turbocharger and second one something bigger than 2260 (maybe some Holset).

Finally, let me give you priceless advice: do not believe everything what Stingray says ... I believed and it was not smart decision - I got tricked.

adamss24 · Mar 9, 2011

You can tee into the oil supply line for the turbo and have an additional drain pipe for the 2nd turbo. It works but its overkill and you will need a block girdle to keep the crank from flexing. I believe you can get your power output with just a GTB2260vk, i am in the process of fitting one to my v6 tdi. You will need new manifolds fabricating and the space is tight on a v6... 2x BV43 will give such a smooth linear torque curve you will snap the input shaft on the gearbox with a heavy foot... The biggest problem is making a new inlet manifold, the injector lines are over-it. The heads flows enough but the engine can only take in soo much air... 300 bhp are not a problem with a GTB2260vk on a v6... What year is your b6 ? Early ones(Y reg 180 Bhp quattro sports) had all alloy intercoolers with cross over pipes to equalise the pressure between the side intercoolers, later ones had plastic ended intercoolers...

Scott_DeWitt · Mar 9, 2011

eliasuk98 said:
hi,

as per my previous post i will be starting the project in the next couple of months so i think this is a good time to get all the dog work done and all the parts purchased.

i need advice on oil feed to the two kkk turbos,

1. would i just T- the existing oill feed pipe and split it to both turbos or create a new channel?

2. oil drain directly to the mid or lower sump?

3. position both turbos directly off the existing manifolds, will there be enough room on the b6 a4? or should i position them like the v6 rs4 b5 engine.

4. size of downpipe, i guess 3" for each head would be an overkill 2.5" should do?

5. head porting, i know Difas on this forum has achieved some good flow results almost 25% more flow, although i know stingray spoke about the heads already having a good flow, any knowledge whether porting to achieve around 350bhp and more is necessary.

6. did i read somewhere the the bosch cummins nozzles with a 143degree spray angle will work fine as it is only one degree of the original 142degree ones? dlla 143P894 has 800cc/30sec any good to see around 400bhp?

all the help and advice is most welcome.

thanks in advance

1) yes

2) lower sump is always filled with oil, as is 1/2 of the upper sump. You will need to drain oil into the upper part of the upper sump.

3) No room to position turbo off the manifolds. Study the 3.3 and 4.2 tdi and see how those were installed. which is close to how the B5 S4 turbos are mounted.

4)2 inch is good for your power levels. 2.25 is also good, 2.5 probably won't fit.

5) probably

6) deffered to the comment about melted pistons.

diffas · Mar 9, 2011

There rs little space behind the engine for two little vnt:s

I would go something like gtb1549/52vk that is good for 170hp/turbo. It will be hard and needs some serious thinking how it needs to be done.

Stock heads will not flow that much. I believe it's possible to reach 300hp with stock heads that are in excelent contition but not over. Main problem is that the swirling gets too high it restricts the flow. Reducing swirling is the thing here.

Hopefully I'll get some data from my engine that how it works with the ported BDG heads and 'new' pistons.

eliasuk98 · Mar 10, 2011

ForestTDI, i think once again in my opinion on a v6 engine it only makes sense to have a turbo on each head like most of the v6 petrol and diesel setups best power output, only question is using the right turbos, cant comment on stingray as havent had much dealing with him
Adamss24 ive been looking at the rs4 manifolds and they seem very similar in shape size and design to the v6 tdi, heres a pic http://www.audiforum.ca/gallery/files/2/7/2/7/header_and_turbo.jpg
if i can make it work like this would be great. would be a good idea if i can compare a kkk bv43 in size to the k04 standard rs4 turbo. seems like the oil drain is to the lower sump. ive been studing the inlet manifold modification, regards the fuel like i think i might just get the lines remade so that i can twist them out of the way of the new manifold??? any comments on doing that???
i think the map will sort the torque curve to allow it to be safe all round, I HOPE.
my b6 is on a 2002, what difference did the alloy ended intercoolers make when you say equalise the pressure??
Diffas im seriously looking forward to your power results, keep us posted.
Profi tuning in slovakia has modified a 2.5 tdi v6 achieving around 400bhp using two gt1852v's, once again i cant get any info of them, Forest TDI i can see from your sig your czech republic, have you heard of profi tuning in slovakia?

diffas · Mar 10, 2011

2.7bit exhaust manifolds are totally different. If you wanna go 'easy' way buy 3.3 v8 manifolds and cut off one channel.

eliasuk98 · Mar 10, 2011

Diffas i know they are different but if you look at the overall shape they are the same but with an extension piece that bends round and mounts onto the turbo, im not saying they will fit but im trying to base it on the same design principle so that i can modify the existing ones and mount the turbo's exactly the same poistion as the 2.7l rs4 engine, that way know they will fit in the a4,... 3.3 v8? now thats something to look at, cant find any pictures of it, i think im just going to modify the existing one to work

ForestTDI · Mar 10, 2011

Firstly I hope that I found right type of that Subaru engine. It is EJ20TT and it is not stright engine, so you can find some inspiration (if interested).

About Profi tuning: Stingray is closely cooperating with them (imho is interested). Once I talked to its owner, I gave him and strictly and stright question about Lupo and its problems and he was not able to give me serious answer. Lupo is known with its continuous problems (turbochargers, engines).

Their dyno graphs I saw are hard to believe - not because of its results but the way how it is done - corrections are pointless, overkilled.

My friend lend them camshaft to test it - no response, feedback, and camshaft still not returned or paid.

This is my opinion given by experiences of many serious people, which are interested in this sector ... maybe it is subjective and "the truth is out there"

eliasuk98 · Mar 10, 2011

interesting will take a look into that thanks

does anyone know if the pistons, rods crank from 3.0 tdi v6 will fit the 2.5 tdi v6 obviously boring it out?? that might be an interesting option to get the extra power???

TDIMeister · Mar 10, 2011

The walls between adjacent cylinders will be rather thin on 83mm pistons (your 2.5 actually has 78.3mm bores, so going to 83mm would be a substantial bump in displacement to 2.8L). The 2.5 has an 88mm bore spacing and the 2.7/3.0 90mm. This leaves you with 5mm between cylinders instead of 9.7mm that you have now and 7mm in the 2.7/3.0. Such a thin bore pitch has done before with gasser engines but is treading some uncharted territory in a TDI (we're putting 3.0 V6 pistons into a 2.0L 16V CR TDI with 88mm spacing, but inline engines tend to be somewhat stiffer structurally than vee engines).

eliasuk98 · Mar 11, 2011

TDIMeister, thats interesting, useful info, now a 5mm spacing wall engineering wise (thats architectural engineering, my field lol) shouldnt be an issue as vast majority of the loading will be taken by the rest of the block, with the piston being in place should give the bores rigidity from collapsing too, however only without knowing the maths with movement etc couldnt say for sure if it will crack, is there anything in between TDIMeister to be on the safe side

TDIMeister · Mar 11, 2011

The term is bore distortion and the cylinder will, however minute and out of sight from the naked eye, move around and change shape as a result of the combination of differential thermal expansion, reaction loads of the piston side loading transmitted from the connecting rods, cylinder gas pressure, etc. At the same time, the cylinder head bolts will try to keep everything together and relatively rigid, causing the bore to deform with a too-small-for-the-naked-eye-to-detect cloverleaf pattern.

5mm is usually OK for gasoline engine, but I have not yet seen it for an OEM engineered Diesel because of higher loadings and gas pressure that needs to be sealed. But TDIsyncro's build is doing it anyway and the hope is that the fire rings will help seal the gas pressure and bore distortion will not be too high overall.

diffas · Jan 8, 2012

eliasuk98 said:
Diffas im seriously looking forward to your power results, keep us posted.

Nothing big output numbers yet. Currently just daily driving around and doing basic maintenances for B5-chassis.

With new software I reached 204kw/570nm with max 1.6bar boost and AFR ~16-17:1. I believe there are more power available but current turbo probably can't handle it - therefore fueling limiter above 4000rpm to reduce emp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn5vHWmMnPI

unclesfunnyonions · Jan 9, 2012

(we're putting 3.0 V6 pistons into a 2.0L 16V CR TDI with 88mm spacing, but inline engines tend to be somewhat stiffer structurally than vee engines).

Interesting, what will that make the overall capacity in cc's?

Alex.

diffas · Jan 9, 2012

1969cc->2067cc

TDIMeister · Jan 9, 2012

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3077473#post3077473

Rub87 · Jan 9, 2012

diffas said:
Nothing big output numbers yet. Currently just daily driving around and doing basic maintenances for B5-chassis. With new software I reached 204kw/570nm with max 1.6bar boost and AFR ~16-17:1. I believe there are more power available but current turbo probably can't handle it - therefore fueling limiter above 4000rpm to reduce emp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn5vHWmMnPI

Should have a bit more potential in it.. the engine I made was making more torque and possible power if it werent underfueled.. only 2 liter and 8 valves

diffas · Jan 9, 2012

Torque ain't the problem. I seriously don't need more torque that it already has...ok with quattro I probably would like put something like 650nm or so. With smoke there sure are some more power available, but that's not my kind of stuff really. I don't like facepalming when driving around smoky car. I think I would have some improvements when bolting on gtb2260v instead current stock-modified turbo.
EMP is the main problen atm. Something like 2.6-2.8bar @ 4500 full throttle. Maybe with tweaking EDC we can reduce EMP or not. I'm pretty happy with the current setup that's why no progress...keep in mind this is my daily job car running 25k miles/year.

There are loads of urban legends about high power 2.5tdi, but never seen anywhere.

Scott_DeWitt · Jan 9, 2012

moivw said:
One 2.5 built
0-100: 3.5s
1/4mile: 11.8s
Website with photos http://www.furious.pl/article/golf-dynosoft/index.htm

A bit of google translation (from polish):
Collectors wydechwowy 5-1 równoodległosciowy custom design their own
biturbo system
Custom inlet manifold
Intercooler prepared for the pressure of 4 bar
Fittings and elbows siikonowe Samco
Pompowtryski with improved performance
3.5 bar map sensor (we took stock of the past)
Nitro NX Advanced computer control (Carbon Superlight bottle)

Transmission:

Haldex controller would Jadzwin
Discs, clutch Radzikowski
Sachs Racing pressure
Circle of dual-mass: a series of
Transmission: 4 Golf 4 Motion with combined flange of Engines
Półośki custom made for about 500HP at www.polosie.pl

Neat but this is not a V6?

moivw · Jan 9, 2012

Looool
went too fast, sorry

ptit_lolo · Feb 6, 2012

No news?

adamss24 · Jan 28, 2015

Any news on that build ? I am too toying with the idea of building a twin turbo v6 tdi engine, i have a block and a pair of brand new heads which i will port soon, thinking to use CR turbos bv43a as they are compact enough...

2.5 tdi v6 twin turbo project

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