CBEA Balance shaft/oil pump module delete? cr170

Nick, not sure if its against the forums rules, but did you find a cheap sources for all those parts? If it does go against the rules feel free to pm me.

On the other end of the oil pump repair spectrum I've talked with the balance shaft repair people and it sounds like that mod at the current usd/gbp exhange rate is going to around 375.00 w/ shipping included, but an extra 125gbp deposit if you want to cross-ship. Supposedly some sources say that it is a little more involved than the bsm delete that you are planning but I really don't see how.

According to KMB they said I just need to drop the the BSM with the BSM alignment tool (T10255) in place and then just replace the shaft with the modified version, and as long as I dont loosen up the drive/intermediate gears it should go back together easy peasy. If you do mess with the gears you have to buy a new intermediate gear (around 180 from vw) since the gear backlash will be messed up, and the new gears come with a coating that wears away to set the lash correctly. Now I just need to make a decision to Delete or not to Delete.


Here the mail I got back from KMB in case it can help anyone in our situation.

"To be honest the kit 9 is fairly easy to install once the balance shaft modual is ready to be removed from the carAs you are looking at a kit 9 you will know you have gear drive system fitted to your car, regarding the intermediate gear, providing you do not loosen it from the modual which it is not necessary to do so there is no reason to replace it because when you replace the modual it will go back in exactly the same place with the same amount of clearance.
Once the oil sump is off turn the engine by hand until the timing tool we sell locates in the gearbox end of the balance shaft modual, this aligns the engine and modual ready for replacing the modual. Drop the modual off the engine, open it up, you will see inside two flat areas on the balance shafts, one on each where the weighted part of the shaft is, revolve the shafts so the flats are to the top so it would be possible to put a rule across the from one to the other, lift the shaft and oil pump out together and replace the new shaft and key so the flats are again at the top as when dismantling
Keeping it all very nice and clean put the unit back together torquing the lid down to 20nm and the 90 degrees on the 8mm bolts
Once this is done revolve the shafts so the timing tool again fits in the back of the modual and replace the modual to the engine using the same torque settings as before
At no time in the procedure after removing the modual turn the engine over as this will put the timing for the modual out of position"

You're also going to need a tap and a plug the size of the oil feed port from the block to the BSM. The BHW size which worked for me was 1/8" NPT (tap and plug), although the hole in your block may be different than the BHW.

Does anyone know if the newer CFFB 2.0 CR euro engines have this BSM, if so possible risk of failure?

paganfx4 said:

Nick, not sure if its against the forums rules, but did you find a cheap sources for all those parts? If it does go against the rules feel free to pm me.
On the other end of the oil pump repair spectrum I've talked with the balance shaft repair people and it sounds like that mod at the current usd/gbp exhange rate is going to around 375.00 w/ shipping included, but an extra 125gbp deposit if you want to cross-ship. Supposedly some sources say that it is a little more involved than the bsm delete that you are planning but I really don't see how.
According to KMB they said I just need to drop the the BSM with the BSM alignment tool (T10255) in place and then just replace the shaft with the modified version, and as long as I dont loosen up the drive/intermediate gears it should go back together easy peasy. If you do mess with the gears you have to buy a new intermediate gear (around 180 from vw) since the gear backlash will be messed up, and the new gears come with a coating that wears away to set the lash correctly. Now I just need to make a decision to Delete or not to Delete.
Here the mail I got back from KMB in case it can help anyone in our situation.

"To be honest the kit 9 is fairly easy to install once the balance shaft modual is ready to be removed from the carAs you are looking at a kit 9 you will know you have gear drive system fitted to your car, regarding the intermediate gear, providing you do not loosen it from the modual which it is not necessary to do so there is no reason to replace it because when you replace the modual it will go back in exactly the same place with the same amount of clearance.
Once the oil sump is off turn the engine by hand until the timing tool we sell locates in the gearbox end of the balance shaft modual, this aligns the engine and modual ready for replacing the modual. Drop the modual off the engine, open it up, you will see inside two flat areas on the balance shafts, one on each where the weighted part of the shaft is, revolve the shafts so the flats are to the top so it would be possible to put a rule across the from one to the other, lift the shaft and oil pump out together and replace the new shaft and key so the flats are again at the top as when dismantling
Keeping it all very nice and clean put the unit back together torquing the lid down to 20nm and the 90 degrees on the 8mm bolts
Once this is done revolve the shafts so the timing tool again fits in the back of the modual and replace the modual to the engine using the same torque settings as before
At no time in the procedure after removing the modual turn the engine over as this will put the timing for the modual out of position"

Click to expand...

Its good to see the price for that, I wanted OEM parts for all of it so I just ordered from 1stvw. I'm not sure about sharing pricing? If not someone let me know and I can take it down. it was $580 for all the parts with shipping. I'm sure you might be able to get better pricing with shopping around.

QuickTD said:

Since the hole in the block is 8mm, I usually just use a 3/8-16 tap and plug the hole with a short 3/8 setscrew slathered in red loctite and bottomed in the threads. The 8mm hole is very close to the correct tap drill size for 3/8-16, (5/16") so it saves the pre-drilling step.

Click to expand...

Thanks QuickTD,
It will make it easy knowing the tap size!!

Nick, thanks for the price lowdown, for some reason I was getting much higher numbers for the delete, will have to look at 1stvw. Post an update once you get the delete installed, heck maybe even a repair log if you do those , I always forget get the camera when the guts are being spilled. If I do the balance repair fix I will do the same. Been watching the gbp/usd exchange market daily, trying to get a good deal on the repair

nick-w said:

Part numbers I think this is all I need.
N90889701 - 2x M10x80 Main cap bolts
03G103623A - CJAA windage tray
038115105C - CJAA oil pump
038115230A - CJAA oil pump chain
038115130 - CJAA chain tensioner
06A105209B - CJAA oil pump chain sprocket on crank
N90704006 - 3x M7x55 oil pump to block bolts
N0282222 - CJAA pickup tube oring
038115251B - CJAA oil pickup tube
N90945002 - 2x M7x21.5 pickup tube bolts
WHT004573 - 1x Timing sprocket bolt on crank
038103153Q - CJAA Front main flange and seal
03L115607A - dipstick + tube + orings

Click to expand...

Heres all the parts I bought. don't need the main cap bolts...they don't get disturbed when removing BSM. CJAA oil pump is same as ALH pump with BRM sprocket....save a bunch of money buying it that way. don't worry about dipstick...I bought CJAA to be safe when I did mine and u don't need it. CBEA dipstick works fine and reads same level as CJAA. Don't need CJAA front main flange ....just crank front seal 038103085E. Sorry I didn't get this posted sooner, been on OT the last month.


pickup tube
038115251B
pickup tube o-ring
N0282222
oil pump bolts x3
N90704006
oil pump chain
038115230A
crank sprocket
06A105209B
pickup tube bolts X2
N90945002
windage tray
03G103623A
crank front seal
038103085E
chain tensioner
038115130
Reinzosil sealant
D176404A2
CRANK BOLT
WHT004573
BRM oil pump sprocket
038115121A
alh oil pump
06A115105B
BRM oil pump sprocket bolt
N90365901

Obviously also need timing tools, gear puller, seal installer, and drill/tap/plug for oil feed hole.

BHW balance shaft delete write up on myturbodiesel....gotta pay $2 to sign up to see 2nd page. http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/o...air-and-delete-b5-passat-and-audi-tdi-engine/

That covers the process.

More info, it appears that the overseas audis changed from the "defective" 77mm key to the 100mm on 10.19.2009. Not sure if the US version got the 100m change at the same time though.

Here's a link http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-154035.html

Hth

£240 plus exchange for the kit (100mm shaft and balance shaft) I think its more economical to delete the damn thing.

I bought new shaft from IDParts and will the original replaced next oil change I'm at 70k and I think I will just delete the entire thing at timing belt.

Would have done the delete myself if I had not already done the timing belt at 100k. Let you guys know how the fix works out, my package is on the way from the UK right now. Sure hope the extra 23 mm makes a difference(fingers crossed).

Keep us posted

Got all the parts!! should be finished tomorrow!! Thanks for all the help guys!! I'll update with photos and a video!

paganfx4 said:

Nick, thanks for the price lowdown, for some reason I was getting much higher numbers for the delete, will have to look at 1stvw. Post an update once you get the delete installed, heck maybe even a repair log if you do those , I always forget get the camera when the guts are being spilled. If I do the balance repair fix I will do the same. Been watching the gbp/usd exchange market daily, trying to get a good deal on the repair

Click to expand...

You got it!! Take $130 off you don't need the flange just a new front main seal! $22 for it!

Nick how the delete go?

I just finished up with the BSM repair and it wasn't much trouble. Will post some pics of the wobbly balance shaft I removed that runs the oil pump. Didn't look as bad as the failed hexes but definitely on its way there, a very good idea bf my stg 3 turbo install.

I got the replacement shaft from IDparts yesterday.

It is indeed tiny. Going to have it replaced next oil change I'm at 70k btw.

I have never had a warm feeling about hex shaft oil pump drives since we lost several Ford racing engines due to the hexs oil pump drive shaft from the distributors broke under load.
It cost major bucks. At first we thought something got into the pump although there was no smoking gun, just smoking engines.
On the second engine we figured out that the shafts were brittle and would snap if the engine was revved up too quickly with oil not hot.
Since then I have been a little leery. The shaft on the VW is short and obviously not hard enough to be brittle, just poorly designed (along with many other "features").
I am luck to be an early adopter and have 220,000 miles on the 2009 CBEA which has many features for the unwary.
There seems to be a date where the engine factory began installing the longer 100 mm shafts. Is there anyway to know which might be in a particular 2009 TDI other than dropping the pan and pulling it out? also does the balance shaft that it fits into have to be replaced if the shaft were removed and found to be 77 mm and replaced with a 100 mm.
I understand from reading that the shafts and gears have to be replaced with new ones if one was to be changed since there is a wear-in coating for t hem to wear into the best mesh.
What are the option other than deleting the BSM altogether?
There seems to be much more information on European sites especially the UK about fixes for this problem. This is a $12.00 part that can trash the entire engine like the above reference to the FORD racing engine. personally I preferred the Chevy where the oil pump drive was driven off the cam and the distributor was driven off the oil pump shaft. If the drive failed the distributor quit and at least the engine stopped before it blew up in a big way. (well at racing engine speeds it really didn't take a lot of oil pressure loss to wipe out the bearings, but at least you had some parts to work with not like an engine that will happily run itself into the ground like the reduced oil pressure from the worn shaft or failed with a spooled up turbo.......

redbarron55 said:

Is there anyway to know which might be in a particular 2009 TDI other than dropping the pan and pulling it out?

Click to expand...

From kmb's email they told me if your car was built before November of 2009 it will have the 77mm hex. But removing the hex is the only way to see if it is worn. If you have vcds you can do an oil pressure test at a specific temperature to see if your pump is putting out factory spec but the only real way to see wear is to pull it out and look at it

also does the balance shaft that it fits into have to be replaced if the shaft were removed and found to be 77 mm and replaced with a 100 mm.

Click to expand...

The only way to fit the 100mm hex is to replace the female balance shaft with the new version (which vw doesn't sell) or get a balance shaft repair service do it, like I did.

I understand from reading that the shafts and gears have to be replaced with new ones if one was to be changed since there is a wear-in coating for them to wear into the best mesh.

Click to expand...

You don't need to replace the gears as long as you remove the BSM with the alignment tool (t10255) and don't loosen up any of the gears.

What are the option other than deleting the BSM altogether?

Click to expand...

As far as I can tell if you want to keep the BSM, the BSM shaft repair is the best you can get.

Here some pic of my cars hex and balance shaft @ 110k miles-

Thanks for the pictures and the date. My JSW was built 05/2009 so I assume that this is the short shaft. I feel that in the least I should replace the shaft when I have the timing belt scheduled for replacement. I am now at just just short of 223,000 miles.
I am more than a little worried looking at your shaft at ~ 100 k miles.
It looks like a really poor choice in the finish of the internal hex in the shaft. I assume they have done a better job on the oil pump side.
I like the looks of the UK shaft with the hex insert, but the core charge etc. is a little bit of a problem since I am not sure when I can get around to swapping it out.
If the first shaft went 223,000 miles then the second one in a worn balance shaft ID would probably not last as long.
As is usual the problems could be from either unfavorable tolerance stack or some trash passing the pump to trigger the failures.
Still poor design work in my opinion.

paganfx4 said:

Nick how the delete go?
I just finished up with the BSM repair and it wasn't much trouble. Will post some pics of the wobbly balance shaft I removed that runs the oil pump. Didn't look as bad as the failed hexes but definitely on its way there, a very good idea bf my stg 3 turbo install.

Click to expand...

Its great!! Super easy, I finished last week and been driving it all this week. The motor vibration is almost nothing! This is the dsg car just before a complete stop it will give a little shutter some times. other than that still super smooth!
I'll get a video up tomorrow so you can see it running!
This is a quick video I shot at night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2P3gXjN0k

QuickTD said:

Since the hole in the block is 8mm, I usually just use a 3/8-16 tap and plug the hole with a short 3/8 setscrew slathered in red loctite and bottomed in the threads. The 8mm hole is very close to the correct tap drill size for 3/8-16, (5/16") so it saves the pre-drilling step.

Click to expand...

Also thanks quickTD you nailed it on the tap size! Thanks for that one!

Full parts list

03G103623A - CJAA windage tray
038115105C - CJAA oil pump
038115230A - CJAA oil pump chain
038115130 - CJAA chain tensioner
06A105209B - CJAA oil pump chain sprocket on crank
N90704006 - 3x M7x55 oil pump to block bolts
N0282222 - CJAA pickup tube oring
038115251B - CJAA oil pickup tube
N90945002 - 2x M7x21.5 pickup tube bolts
WHT004573 - 1x Timing sprocket bolt on crank
03L115607A - dipstick + tube + orings[/QUOTE]
I used all the parts on this list, you will need a new crank front seal 038103085E
Also like 1972SS454 said you can use the same old dipstick, But I opted for the cjaa one.
so my total was around $465ish after shipping

jimbote said:

Bob... everything in the kit looks good except for the oil pickup tube ... a cjaa or BRM tube would probably be best ... the BHW sump is completely different than the transverse sump... i do know an ALH/BEW tube will not work as it interferes with the convolutions in the CR/BRM style pan

Click to expand...

The pickup tube in that image is for Longitudinal vehicles. You will need the transverse unit (which is not shown). Whatever the case , I would sooner convert to the ALH oil pump system before attempting to do the Balance shaft delete.

INA said:

The pickup tube in that image is for Longitudinal vehicles. You will need the transverse unit (which is not shown). Whatever the case , I would sooner convert to the ALH oil pump system before attempting to do the Balance shaft delete.

Click to expand...

??? ALH oil pump system IS the balance shaft delete .... and the ALH pickup tube will not work with the brm/cbea/cjaa oil pan (interference issue).... you need the brm/cjaa oil pickup tube ... it's slightly different than the ALH/BEW tube...

jimbote said:

??? ALH oil pump system IS the balance shaft delete .... and the ALH pickup tube will not work with the brm/cbea/cjaa oil pan (interference issue).... you need the brm/cjaa oil pickup tube ... it's slightly different than the ALH/BEW tube...

Click to expand...

I am well aware of what the BSD kit is. We were the first company to document and make it work on the 2.0 TFSI back in 2007. Other companies have since then pieced together the kit and offer them to the public.

ALH is just an engine code. If you really want to get technical then any single standing oil pump from any of the 1.8T/1.9TDI/2.0 8V / 2.0 TDI engines will work. The oil pump out of all the single standing units that has the largest gear is 03G 115 105 at approx 60mm in diameter.
The hardest part to figure out is if your block has the M7 tap for "1.8T" oil pump chain tensioner. If not , then you will need a template , a steady hand , an M6 drill bit and an M7x1.0 tap.

As for oil pans ,
1.8T pick up tube = 06A115251
1.9 TDI ALH pick up tube = 06A115251
i.e. same pick up tube. I just tried the CJAA 2.0 TDI CR oil pan (03G103603AD) with the kicked out section onto a 1.8T block with the 1.8T pick up tube / pump and there was no interference so not sure what interference you are speaking of. Can you be more specific as it would be good for my notes.

INA your statement i quoted is contradictory and confusing ... just looking for clarification is all

jimbote said:

INA your statement i quoted is contradictory and confusing ... just looking for clarification is all

Click to expand...

I re-read what I posted. You can do a balance shaft delete i.e. remove the balancing gears (they need to be machined out) but most machine shops will charge $300-400 for the service considering what needs to be involved.
Hope that clears everything up.

Just to update this I used Nicks list below and used the old dip stick to save some money. I had a ALH pump in my hand at IDPARTS who helped me out a lot on the Upgrade. But I stayed with the CJAA pump. It has 50LB of pressure runs smooth as one with the balance shaft still in it and I think the engine spins up faster now.

nick-w said:

03G103623A - CJAA windage tray
038115105C - CJAA oil pump
038115230A - CJAA oil pump chain
038115130 - CJAA chain tensioner
06A105209B - CJAA oil pump chain sprocket on crank
N90704006 - 3x M7x55 oil pump to block bolts
N0282222 - CJAA pickup tube oring
038115251B - CJAA oil pickup tube
N90945002 - 2x M7x21.5 pickup tube bolts
WHT004573 - 1x Timing sprocket bolt on crank
03L115607A - dipstick + tube + orings

Click to expand...

I used all the parts on this list, you will need a new crank front seal 038103085E
Also like 1972SS454 said you can use the same old dipstick, But I opted for the cjaa one.
so my total was around $465ish after shipping[/QUOTE]

I just finished doing a BSM delete on my cbea. I found the list of parts very helpful. I ended up finding using a bunch of CJAA parts.
It is more responsive for sure. It's far more "growly" as it accelerates. Has anyone else experienced that, or have I possibly done something wrong. Timing belt was done at the same time, and all seemed to go well with that and pulleys line up properly.