post fix DSG update failure - bricked cars with no solution from VW

turbobrick240

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I imagine they will get a fix figured out. But if they can't, I think they should have to pay out full msrp to the owners who didn't want the buyback option to begin with.
 

bhtooefr

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Ultimately, though, how is this any different from, say, the car being dropped off of a lift, resulting in it being totalled, during a recall repair?

In that case, the dealer's insurance company would offer fair market value, which is far less than what VW is offering on the buyback. (Now, a good dealer would offer something better for goodwill reasons, but that's not an obligation.)
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
The dealer, and thus their insurance company, has no claim to any liability beyond their responsibility. This is VoA/VAG's problem.

When we had scores of dead RX330s with bad brake boosters, and Toyota was scrambling to find out why they were failing, they (Toyota/Lexus) paid for rental cars for anyone without the use of their cars the entire time. And then I think offered some goodwill money on top of that. The dealers had nothing to do with that. We did not build the car, nor did we build the crappy brake boosters.
 

kjclow

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Here's the VCDS results the day before the fix:

Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 02E-927-770.clb
Part No SW: 02E 300 051 HW: 02E 927 770 AJ
Component: GSG DSG AG6 431 1814
Revision: 04843012 Serial number: 00000807010834
Coding: 0000020
Shop #: WSC 02069 000 90108
VCID: 50A59851C3401EC65A-8004
No fault code found.

And after the fix:

Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 02E-927-770.clb
Part No SW: 02E 300 052 HW: 02E 927 770 AJ
Component: GSG DSG AG6 431 8938
Revision: 04843012 Serial number: 00000807010834
Coding: 0000020
Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
VCID: 51A39D55C84A17CE55-8004

No fault code found.

A couple differences with my trans and meerschm.
1. Software(SW) version ends in 51 for my pre-fix compared to 50 for your software version
2. Hardware(HW) version ends in AJ while yours ends in AD
3. Component is different. What does 'component' mean"

Recall that my 2009 is fixed and on the road. No issues with DSG trans.
Why yours worked and theirs didn't is probably related to the different hardware version. AJ versus AD. I'm speculating that the second letter is referring to a newer or updated DSG.
 

kjclow

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Meanwhile, the point is that I've read a few places around here about dealers that say that if you signed up for the fix, you can't change your mind. And /my/ dealership is telling me that you can still change your mind if you haven't had the fix yet.
You can change your mind for the fix or buyback up until you give the keys to the dealer for either solution. I've got all the paperwork sitting on my kitchen table and am debating on my best course of action. Based on one post, I guess I need to check my build date and see if it possible that my 10 JSW may still be effected. That would be the deciding vote on the buyback.
 

psd1

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Wow, what a cluster. If it were happening to me I guess I would leave my car sitting at the dealership and find a loaner I really, really liked. Then just drive the hell out of it. If they can fix it, it will have less miles on it when returned/repaired. If they Can't fix it, it will have less miles on it and be worth more $ on buyback. Of course the decision to buy back rests with the owner, so drive the loaner until the last day possible.
 

740GLE

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The dealer, and thus their insurance company, has no claim to any liability beyond their responsibility. This is VoA/VAG's problem.
Agreed, but the dealer is the face of the company and while they don't have to make you whole, it should be in their best interest to compensate you as much as they can.

It's one of the main reason I hate the tiered dealer system the lobbyists tout in the customers best interests, when pushed, no one really takes responsibility.

Lets not forget these dealers also got "bailed out" by VWoA, sympathy for them doesn't run deep.

At least the dealer should be fighting for a loaner car comparable to what's sitting bricked.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
I think in cases like these, the dealers get stuck in the middle of a turd sandwich that they had no part in creating. But how they respond in the one-on-one can go a long way towards at the very least softening the blow. But having been on both sides, I can assure you that there are quite a few vehicle owners that storm in there, demand the moon, and think they deserve every bit of it.

In these cases of the DSG 2009s, though, I bet VoA is going to be reimbursing for loaner/rental cars. If not, well, I am not sure the dealer can afford to do so for a very long time.
 

tadawson

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It's also not "fixed" as promised, so it would seem pretty obvious that the only choice is to revert . . . Nothing in the settlement stipulates that they have permission to indefinitely brick your car . . .
 

bhtooefr

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Again, reverting is installing a defeat device, AND it's actually going to be cheaper to finish the fix - most likely, the mechatronics unit needs to be replaced to get it to take any flash, whether it's a reversion or finishing the fix.
 

kjclow

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With all the hell that the EPA and CARB have already put VW through (not arguing the right or wrong of that), there is no way they are going to allow VW to undo any portion of the "fix". Sorry but it appears there are only two options for those hit with this. 1) wait for VW to figure out how to fix the dsg, or 2) wait for VW to decide they can't fix it and give you all the buyback money. Both options are wait and see.
 

bhtooefr

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They didn't fail to remove it, though - looks like they've successfully erased the DSG firmware. It's replacing it with the fixed firmware that's failing.

There may be an option in which the broken car gets returned to you, and you tow the car to a third party to attempt repairs. In that case, court cases may need to be involved for compensation, and as the fix isn't complete, you wouldn't be entitled to the restitution funds.
 

meerschm

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one item I have not shared is that my service advisor said that the cost of a loaner has exceeded the cost of a mechatronics unit, but even that would not fix the problem.

my guess is that the new software needs a later model unit. may be a technical reason for incompatibility, or may just be a bureaucratic issue of model year mismatch.
 

Woza

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2009 Jetta CR DSG. 2002 Jetta scrapped The ALH engine is being used in my Project
With all the hell that the EPA and CARB have already put VW through (not arguing the right or wrong of that), there is no way they are going to allow VW to undo any portion of the "fix". Sorry but it appears there are only two options for those hit with this. 1) wait for VW to figure out how to fix the dsg, or 2) wait for VW to decide they can't fix it and give you all the buyback money. Both options are wait and see.
I agree with kjclow. The court settlement as it stands is they can't undo the fix once it has been done, if they do they get the law down on them. I want the car back:( but right now VW America are in a quandry. I don't think they can force a buyback but it is big Corporate against me-citizen so it is a wait and see game. They won't answer any of my emails so far since Monday of this week. Tried to post on VWA but you can only post nice things on their fb page. Go Figuire:mad:
 

marmur99

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No need to be mad. You have a loaner, so give them time to figure it out. Since it seems that you're not the only one with a bricked car, sooner or later they will have to solve this problem. There's a deadline in the settlement and time is working against them - not against you.
Enjoy your loaner.
 

bhtooefr

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But the defeat device has already been removed, apparently, so it doesn't matter whether the fix is done or not.
 

tadawson

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In *your* opinion . . . I wholeheartedly disagree that a bricked car is in any way "fixed" . . .
 

bhtooefr

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I didn't say it was fixed, I said the defeat device was removed.

Reverting it would involve reinstalling the defeat device, and VW doesn't want to pay another $37,500 to do that, on top of replacing the mechatronics unit.
 

craigldavis

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Logic: If in the process of applying the EPA approved emissions repair, a component of the vehicle was rendered inoperable then:

VW or the dealer would need to make that component operable once again as it was a direct result of their action.

Corollary: If, while your car in in the possession of the mechanic, said mechanics actions broke something on your car (say he cracked the radio touch screen by accident) it would be thier reaponsibility to replace it.

Therefore: I would expect VW to replace the transmission components rendered inoperable by their actions.

Bonus: VW is required to give you a loaner car until they complete the repairs.

Practical translation: keep your loaner as long as you want. If they never fix your car you get a free loaner for life. VW probably won’t want that to happen so I’m sure they will eventually fix the transmission update issue or replace the components in to necessary to get your car operable again.
 

tadawson

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I didn't say it was fixed, I said the defeat device was removed.

Reverting it would involve reinstalling the defeat device, and VW doesn't want to pay another $37,500 to do that, on top of replacing the mechatronics unit.
What twisted, warped, failed logic are you using? Not working == not fixed, and putting it back as it was is not 'installing a defeat device', it's 'leaving it alone', since there was *NEVER* a legal requirement to fix that car. Kinda comes under double jeopardy - you can't be in violation for leaving it as it was, no matter the route to get there, since that car in that condition isn't illegal . . .
 

bhtooefr

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I'm using, the car had a defeat device on it - the car was legal to operate, but there was kinda this whole big lawsuit over the defeat device being there in the first place.

The defeat device was removed as part of the repair process. A later part of the repair process failed, however.

Reverting the repair attempt would require reinstalling the defeat device.

That is illegal - even if it doesn't make the car illegal for the owner to drive, it is illegal for Volkswagen or the dealer to do it.
 

740GLE

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The fix was a software ECU and TCU upgrade to meet EPA compliance. As it's the driverline that was approved, heck the 2012-2014 Passat manual driveline hasn't been approved.

The ECU part took, yeah sure the "defeat device" portion of the ECU is removed, but it even reverting back to stock DSG tuning won't meet EPA requirements. I don't think the DSG software has very minimal effect with with how the engine creates NOx compared to the ECU program, but VW had to go the extra mile to get everything they could from stock emissions components, hence why they changed the shift paterns of the DSG.

Feeling it's an all or none.
 

whitedog

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I'm using, the car had a defeat device on it - the car was legal to operate, but there was kinda this whole big lawsuit over the defeat device being there in the first place.

The defeat device was removed as part of the repair process. A later part of the repair process failed, however.

Reverting the repair attempt would require reinstalling the defeat device.

That is illegal - even if it doesn't make the car illegal for the owner to drive, " it is illegal for Volkswagen or the dealer to do it".
I think that last part I put in quotes is close and may be true, but we, nor VW, nor the dealer knows for sure and they dont want to take the chance.

I haven't been following this thread very close so I'm not sure if TADawson has a bricked car, but if so, he should be putting his argument to VW because there is some validity to what he is saying. They may tell him to wet up a rope, but I feel that his energies are best put there.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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I went back to pick up another loner (was on the road the past few weeks)

also updated first post here with a summary (let me know or post here, and I will update the first post)

the service rep I talked to said VW called them today to verify that they still have all the cars affected. she considered this a hopeful sign. (why, I do not know)

I joked that the 2016 CC they gave me as a loner would be my daily driver for the next six months.

I asked them for a loaner with a roof rack. no dice.

plans to drive the JSW to upstate NY for some fishing next week, using the car top tent camper.

this is getting serious, interfering with a fishing trip!
Ha, if I were in the same boat as you, I'd spend some money on a Bosal hitch and just tow around a trailer in the loaner. VW would hate me, because I'd easily rack up 10-20K miles on a loaner by the time it was returned.

Personally, I think y'all with 2009 DSGs should file a class action, considering that VW has deep pockets.
 

tadawson

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Myself, I'd consider reporting it stolen . . . You own it, and they are keeping it against your will . . . (Not to mention having rendered it undriveable . . . what's that? Destruction of property?)
 

GoFaster

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^ I don't think that would end well. You're likely to end up with a non-functional car dropped in your driveway and a shop who will refuse to deal with you, and as for them having rendered it undriveable, the fact (and it IS a fact) that you were offered a rental car for the duration will mean you would get laughed out of court should it ever get that far.

"But the rental car uses more gas than my TDI did" - cry me a river; it's essentially being given to you for free.
"But the rental car won't tow my trailer" - I'm sure if you were NICE about it, and had a friendly chat with the rental agency, you could be put into something that will. (And bear in mind that the official towing rating of your TDI wasn't much, so if you were illegally towing a trailer that was over the car's towing rating ... yeah, that'll go over well.)
"But the rental car isn't as <whatever> as my TDI" - again, cry me a river, it's being offered to you for free.
 

tadawson

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So if I rob a jewelery store, and offersome piece of crap as a 'here, use this in the meantime' offering, that would be OK as well? Your logic escapes me . . . Demand return, and sue for damages. They clearly know how to make this right, but won't. Were there no fix, you could drive it indefinitely. Clearly there is no fix at this time, and a botched attempt does not change the situation . . . they just do it later, as has been the case all along, when they have it right. In the meantime, they are obligated to revert the car to original, known functional condition.

(And considering that a botched fix was not addressed in the settlement, I can't fathom that the court would prohibit a back out of the partial until they get it right, and *this* is the point that needs to be pressed with the court . . .)
 
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