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Old November 15th, 2018, 12:26   #1
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Exclamation German court considers first diesel driving ban on an autobahn

A German court is considering the first diesel ban on a German autobahn.

It's in German, but Chrome will translate the article for you.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik.../23636636.html

Quote:
Düsseldorf, Gelsenkirchen The Administrative Court Gelsenkirchen has opened a new chapter on the subject of driving bans: for the first time, a motorway is also affected. The decision concerning the Ruhrgebiet cities of Essen and Gelsenkirchen also applies to diesel engines of pollutant class 5 and petrol engines with Euro 2 standard.
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Old November 15th, 2018, 13:02   #2
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This is crazy making. My head is going to explode.
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Old November 15th, 2018, 14:35   #3
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It says in your quote that it applies to petrol engines as well, so I'm guessing it's only targeting older cars that met lower emissions standards. Still silly, but it's not a total ban on diesel.
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Old November 15th, 2018, 14:38   #4
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They already have regulation on older cars, gas and diesel, in certain areas under certain time periods. This is not really anything new. This is related to the colored tags the cars have.

Although I do not think it ever applied to anything on the open highways, just city centers, but someone who has or does live there hopefully will chime in on this.

But this is partly why the new Sprinter gets an electric version (not sold here), to be able to go into city centers at any time going forward.
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Old November 16th, 2018, 12:19   #5
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I'm ok with every internal combustion engine worldwide, Diesel or otherwise, being required to have particulate filters.
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Old November 18th, 2018, 12:17   #6
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It looks to me as if this was some lower court judge ( Richterin F) making this decision and if so you can be sure that it will taken to the highest court in the land.
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Old November 18th, 2018, 18:28   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
I'm ok with every internal combustion engine worldwide, Diesel or otherwise, being required to have particulate filters.
Maybe every new car built in the future, but you would have a difficult time getting all the old cars already built, to use a dpf. That would never happen.
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Old November 19th, 2018, 07:45   #8
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I wouldn't get too worked up about it , there's not many older vehicles on the road now, most diesels will be able to get the Green 4 emissions sticker. Hell my 1.8t corrado didn't have a catalyst but managed to pass( just) emissions without one and was given green sticker. Green is no restrictions on time in the city. Yellow is only allowed at certain time and red generally is not allowed now in most cities.

Their just making it difficult to allow a older pollution emitter on the road. Laws come into effect quick in Europe, most people accept it's for greater good even if they do moan about it initially.
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Old November 19th, 2018, 07:48   #9
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I have also been told that enthusiasts can get a permit for older classic status cars for special events, like car shows and parades and such, which is probably a good thing since that discourages old clunkers from just being used as daily drivers yet allows a way for the classics to remain legal and able to go to these functions.
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Old November 19th, 2018, 08:56   #10
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Yeah temp plates allow for that but their expensive and a bit of a pain to get sometimes. Suppose they don't want it easy for people to use them as a daily. I think they are exempt city restrictions but have to pass TUV and emissions for their particular year.

Used to have a mk2 GTI valver I used to put on temp plates for shows, got annoying after a while
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Old November 20th, 2018, 09:44   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 View Post
Maybe every new car built in the future, but you would have a difficult time getting all the old cars already built, to use a dpf. That would never happen.
I don't know about this in EU. I would expect they would pass laws requiring updates to equipment to access low emissions zones (and zones would expand over time). Eventually you would be so restricted on where your car would be legal either you junk it or update with newer emissions devices.

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Old November 20th, 2018, 11:29   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverGhost View Post
I don't know about this in EU. I would expect they would pass laws requiring updates to equipment to access low emissions zones (and zones would expand over time). Eventually you would be so restricted on where your car would be legal either you junk it or update with newer emissions devices.
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You can get kits fitted but some are stupidly expensive and it's cheaper to buy second-hand diesel with it from factory,No real market for the kits. You'd have to really, really want your car for sentimental value to have one. Then you have all your modifications declared to TUV and last time I checked when I left Germany it was about €59 per mod. EGR,DPF,exhaust system, power output Change, emissions certification- and so on.each individual mod so your entering the $1000 Mark easy just to have it certified. Plus the kit $$$$
Not really worth it for all the work required.

In germany if you have a TDI it's usually a yellow or green sticker and red sticker for SDI or IDI
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Old November 27th, 2018, 05:14   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
They already have regulation on older cars, gas and diesel, in certain areas under certain time periods. This is not really anything new. This is related to the colored tags the cars have.

Although I do not think it ever applied to anything on the open highways, just city centers, but someone who has or does live there hopefully will chime in on this.

But this is partly why the new Sprinter gets an electric version (not sold here), to be able to go into city centers at any time going forward.
With the turmoil in the political landscape in Germany, in recent elections, the AfD became a party to be reckoned with, taking votes from traditional CDU and CSU parties. In the recent state elections in Bavaria and Hessen, there was fear that the AfD would continue to gain, but in a surprise showing the Greens jumped up in percentage points, and will govern in a coalition with the CDU in Hessen. This 'diesel ban' is nothing more than a bone for the Greens, and will never get any further. The Constitutional court just recently struck down diesel bans that were to go into effect very shortly ib several cities.
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Old December 7th, 2018, 15:46   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intech View Post
With the turmoil in the political landscape in Germany, in recent elections, the AfD became a party to be reckoned with, taking votes from traditional CDU and CSU parties. In the recent state elections in Bavaria and Hessen, there was fear that the AfD would continue to gain, but in a surprise showing the Greens jumped up in percentage points, and will govern in a coalition with the CDU in Hessen. This 'diesel ban' is nothing more than a bone for the Greens, and will never get any further. The Constitutional court just recently struck down diesel bans that were to go into effect very shortly ib several cities.
I'm seeing the opposite...

German court bans older diesel cars in parts of Berlin
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Old December 9th, 2018, 06:17   #15
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It's kind of a complicated situation in Germany. I'll give it a try.

Upto now there were diesel restrictions in effect in big cities including Hannover where I live. One needed the green environment sticker which was granted to Euro 4 and newer which is from kind of mk5 and newer for you guys. This has been the case for some time.

More recently it has been found that NOx values are too high in many of the big cities and these values violate the EU directives on allowable levels.
These higher levels are monitored at particular locations in the cities where there are NOx sensor installations. There is argument if these stations are representative of actual levels in the city due to being only at certain locations. Also the cities themselves may have scored own goals here, because they (often tend to be liberal Greens in cities) tried to restrict traffic flow by converting 2 lane roads to single lane and closing off sections etc. in the hope that people will take the 'bus' but it didn't work out like that in reality, which ended up causing more congestion. In other words there are many ways to skin the cat to reduce NOx levels, i.e. synced traffic lights etc. My city Hannover for example is kind of more setup for cars like a north american city with a good road infrastructure and does not have the higher NOx values problem.

In any case earlier this year the Federal Admin. Court ruled cities can in fact setup their own restrictions about which cars can be prevented from entering the cities. Based on the NOx values from the installations they have started to restrict certain LIMITED sections of roads in major cities. Hamburg started it but it has now spread to Berlin, Essen etc. Basically they are now preventing all cars upto and including Euro 5 diesels. Only Euro 6 diesels are allowed now in these sections. Except for Stuttgart (Greens govt.) from January onwards will have a total ban on cars up to Euro 5 for example. The section of Autobahn mentioned in the article is an exception. This section goes through Essen an area which is one of the most densely populated in the world. There are many other Autobahns in the area, so it could be avoided.

However, this is where there the dilemma starts. Euro 5 cars are only a couple of years old and are now facing bans. So there is a lot of uproar and anger about this. The govt. also wants to avoid the bans because people have bought these new cars and supposedly the govt. represents the people. At the same time the diesel software manipulation scandal ties into this because alot of Euro 5 diesels are technically illegal. In the US VW got fined massive amounts and people got their money back, but that is not the case here. That would never happen in Europe. This is still an ongoing battle. Instead of compensation, VW etc. are trying to use their orginal crime as a means to generate new revenue i.e. sell more cars. They want to give people trade in discounts to buy new Euro 6 cars. There are hardware solutions that several companies have come up with to convert Euro4/5 to 6, but VW is trying its best to avoid having to implement those because that will cut into their revenue. In the mean time they pretended for some time that software updates are all that was needed until they were called out on it and are now trying to sell new cars. If the govt. tries to force them to implement the hardware solutions they try to shout foul and argue it could affect jobs due to loss of revenue. (This is a common trick often used in all areas of industry). Anyway things are still poised on this point where the govt. has to force VW etc. to bite the bullet or find a way to solve the problem. The cities are starting to clamp down so things are coming to a head. The ADAC ( US AAA) is in the mean time investigating the legitimacy of the NOx measurement installations, because in real terms NOx emissions have gone down over time. But the govt. has to move quickly because the cities are going to continue to clamp down on diesels. How far they will go is yet to be seen.

However this is where people see collusion between govt. and big business like most everywhere and have lost faith in the system on a variety of issues. The big center parties CDU/SPD are continously losing support. This ties into the point of why people are voting AfD (a right wing anti-foreigner party) and the greens. It is also somewhat generational. Older people with nostaglia are tending to vote AfD (also due to the refugees that came in) and younger people are voting for the Greens. There are a lot of parallels here to Brexit and other places.
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