Comparison Test: LED drop-in headlight bulbs vs. halogen bulbs [pics inside]

roadhard1960

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I am an easily confused person. In days of old I got a set of 7" Bosch round H4s for my 1967 Beetle. 12 volts. Very crisp pattern. A neighbor had Marchels with 100 watt H4. In any event his high beams were very bright and not in a vague way but in adrive 100 mph at night safely way. Later I had some crappy Cibies DOT code large rectangle H4s on my A1 Rabbit. Horrid pattern or maybe horrid output compared to the Bosch I was used to. Later I got a different set Cibie large rectangle but E-code. Much better. I added a relay kit which decreased the voltage drop to the bulbs which helped. I put Hella Ecodes in my A4 Jetta wagon. Better than DOT code.

Blah blah. All of the E-codes had fairly well defined cut offs. The rounds were the best, The glass Cibie Ecodes large rectangles were similar but not as crisp. Even the Hella Ecodes in the Jetta are fairly crisp. What is the story with the vague patterns in your test pictures? Even the built in fogs in my Hella Ecodes are crisp. Well not super laser crisp but not blob patterns?

I am rushing and may have missread the pics which are awesome as I am typing instead of going out to do chores.
 

2TDIs_1Cup

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This is an awesome project, I'm glad you started it. LED lighting has been a big fascination of mine. I look forward to any future updates :D
 

SilverGhost

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www.SuperBrightLEDs.com has started offering LED headlamp bulbs. I have been getting emails and looked at them quickly. I'm not going to be a guinea pig on this one as I already have a set from ebay. Anyone else checked them out?

Jason
 
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Digital Corpus

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$99 for a 70 CRI LED and 1200 lumens. At 6800K, the S/P ratio is probably something like 3 or more so that lumen output will appear brighter than one would think, but with such a low CRI, colors will be looking fugly.

A regular filament bulb will have greater than 95 CRI and 1400-1500 lumens at a CCT of 2800-3300K
 

tongsli

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$99 for a 70 CRI LED and 1200 lumens. At 6800K, the S/P ratio is probably something like 3 or more so that lumen output will appear brighter than one would think, but with such a low CRI, colors will be looking fugly.

A regular filament bulb will have greater than 95 CRI and 1400-1500 lumens at a CCT of 2800-3300K
Don't waste your money. I am finally convinced that no one will be successful in making a "drop-in" LED replacement which will perform (or have the same optics) the same as a bulb and reflector combination.

A true LED design is totally different and our cars are too old for anyone to spend the time and effort to make an effective LED solution.
 

VeeDubTDI

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$99 for a 70 CRI LED and 1200 lumens. At 6800K, the S/P ratio is probably something like 3 or more so that lumen output will appear brighter than one would think, but with such a low CRI, colors will be looking fugly.

A regular filament bulb will have greater than 95 CRI and 1400-1500 lumens at a CCT of 2800-3300K
70 CRI and 6800K is nothing to write home about, and a poor choice in my opinion. I'd want something closer to 4000-5000K and at least 80 CRI, preferably 90 CRI. The LED market is evolving rapidly and higher CRI diode packages are becoming more popular... give it a little while longer and you'll end up with a much better product.

Also, on my road trip last weekend, I saw a Suburban with drop-in LED headlights (the light quality was a dead give-away). They were fairly bright, but the beam control was very poor - too much light where you didn't need it and not enough where you did. It's pretty much the equivalent of running around with your high beams on all the time.
 

Chris Tobin

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I have heard good things about the LED replacement headlights from the guys at www.firewireleds.com. Here is the link to his headlight kits:

http://www.firewireleds.com/led-headlight-kit/

It is product that is brought in from oveseas, but he stands behind it. I want to put a set in my son's Mk4 Jetta and my Chevy Silverado.

He also owns www.allhids.com and tells me that the led conversion in much better than the HID conversions that he and others offer especially in stock halogen housings. His LED replacement use an LED on the top and bottom of the mount with the low beam on the bottom and high beam from the top so that they are supposed to give a good beam pattern...

I haven't had the time to pick up a pair to try in anything of my own yet, and the trucks I have seen them in have been in the daylight so I have not seen the cutoff for myself yet...
 

Digital Corpus

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Don't waste your money. I am finally convinced that no one will be successful in making a "drop-in" LED replacement which will perform (or have the same optics) the same as a bulb and reflector combination.
A true LED design is totally different and our cars are too old for anyone to spend the time and effort to make an effective LED solution.
Thebeautiful thing about headlights is that only the headlight assembly will not have many molding pitons. There are only 2 aftermarket variations that are out there right now. Furthermore, the headlight iself, the bulb, is something that is easily replaced and if we convert over to LED assembly instead of an incandescent/halogen bulb, it's really not that big of a deal as long as things are accounted for appropriately.

70 CRI and 6800K is nothing to write home about, and a poor choice in my opinion. I'd want something closer to 4000-5000K and at least 80 CRI, preferably 90 CRI. The LED market is evolving rapidly and higher CRI diode packages are becoming more popular... give it a little while longer and you'll end up with a much better product.
Also, on my road trip last weekend, I saw a Suburban with drop-in LED headlights (the light quality was a dead give-away). They were fairly bright, but the beam control was very poor - too much light where you didn't need it and not enough where you did. It's pretty much the equivalent of running around with your high beams on all the time.
I'm very acquainted with Mouser's catalog and am even working on a custom lighting solution from work that required quite a bit of time going through one of the largest LED optics catalogs I've ever run across: ledil.com.

There are appropriate CRI and CCT numbers that correlate well and if an overdriven LED is utilized properly, you can compensate for the lack of lumens. I think you might be interested in the luminous efficiency of cones vs rods, near the bottom for scotopic, which gives us the S/P, scotopic to photopic ratio, which is the general ruling as to how useful a light is in mesopic conditions. However, most S/P rations are 'computed' via an LED's CCT instead of its spectral power distribution as there is alway a gap in lighting around the 480 nm region due to the limits of the technology.

Also, despite high CRI and due to that lower output around 480 nm, CRI isn't completely telling as to the quality of the light as color casts independent f the CCT can still be present. This is why spectral power distribution is the more accurate means of determining quality, though don't get me wrong as CRI still has its merit. If you want to read up more on SPD for light, have a gander at black bodies and Planck's Law. Here is a sight with a decent interactive interface

If you want to investigate CCT a little more, the Kruithof curve is a good example of understanding the aesthetic. Though it was not intended as a scientific guide, it follows closely to what we perceive as white under mesopic vision. For the level of light that is required when we flip on our headlights, going above ~4250 will start showing up paler and more blue as a result. It is possible to find small 90 CRI, 4000K LEDs in the current industry thankfully, but they are a rarity and hard to find.

I have heard good things about the LED replacement headlights from the guys at www.firewireleds.com. Here is the link to his headlight kits:

http://www.firewireleds.com/led-headlight-kit/

It is product that is brought in from oveseas, but he stands behind it. I want to put a set in my son's Mk4 Jetta and my Chevy Silverado.

He also owns www.allhids.com and tells me that the led conversion in much better than the HID conversions that he and others offer especially in stock halogen housings. His LED replacement use an LED on the top and bottom of the mount with the low beam on the bottom and high beam from the top so that they are supposed to give a good beam pattern...

I haven't had the time to pick up a pair to try in anything of my own yet, and the trucks I have seen them in have been in the daylight so I have not seen the cutoff for myself yet...
I'll have a look at them when time permits. I spent several hours last night disassembling one of my two keyboards and cleaning the whole thing after our [small] dog managed to find her way onto my desk and walk around on it. To fix a couple concerns with keystroke, I ended up greasing each and every key too.

Anyhow, they key thing I've noted this far about LED headlights is to stay away from COB designs. You need a small bar of light emission in order to mimic a filament. As such a single chip or due chip LED that is in the neighborhood of 2mm thick by 5mm wide, this is an *estimate* and I need to destroy a bulb or wait for a burn out to be more accurate, will produce the closest light output that isn't too dissimilar to a standard bulb.
 
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All of these products are bull.

I've been reading this thread with great interest. You've basically performed an experiment which basically proves to people that none of these products will ever do what they are claiming to be able to do.

Bear with me for a second, I'd like to give you a little background on me since anyone can say something in these forums and it doesn't really mean anything because for all we know the person whose post you are reading is making stuff up on the fly.....

I'm an electrician by trade but for the last few years I've been working project management for a very large New York City electrical contractor. We deal primarily with large scale infrastructural projects but I do have quite a bit of experience dealing with Highway and Streetlighting. I was already extremely familiar things like color temperatures, geometric optics and photometrics before ever applying that knowledge to car headlights. I'm going to try to give my two cents worth without being boring or getting too technical.

Whenever I read one of these lighting threads on a car forum I more often than not end up rolling my eyes backwards into my head and I'm usually forced to stop reading because I can't deal with nonsense. Every few months some scam artist comes out with a "new product" which they claim is the real deal this time around.

When dealing with Optics, there are four major classifications of photometrics. I am referring to the application of photometrics as they relate to streetlighting but believe me when I tell you the same terminology applies. The IESNA was founded in 1906 so these concepts of light geometry are by absolutely no means a new science. This is a type of engineering which has been around for 100 years and only relatively recently has begun to be applied to automotive lighting. Lithonia has a set of diagrams explaining the differences between Full Cutoff, Cutoff, Semi Cutoff and Non Cutoff Optics here:
http://www.lithonia.com/micro_webs/nighttimefriendly/cutoff.asp

The point Im trying to get to is that without optics, in other words, LENSES, "Full Cutoff" can absolutely never be achieved. In other words, an HID lamp can absolutely NEVER be "dropped in" to a reflector housing. They are designed to be focused through optics and anyone who tells you they have designed a high Lumen output lamp which can be dropped into a reflector housing is lying. If anyone has a problem with me saying that they can show me the DOT certification for their product and I'll eat my words but until they show me proof of their claims I will continue to call them what they are. Pretty much the same thing goes for LED lamps. The problem lies in the way the light travels from its source to the method of projection/reflection, i.e. "throwing" of the light. The light is being emitted from a different geometric point in space than where the housing was designed to reflect light from, and it's being emitted at a higher intensity than halogen reflectors are intended to reflect.

Some of the products I've seen show pictures of their product's "cutoff" which in my opinion are absolutely laughable. Their beam patterns are "Semi-Cutoff" at best. Blacking out part of the base of the lamp as I have seen some of these manufacturers do is not going to solve the problem either. Reflector housings will not only invariably fail to produce a "Full Cutoff", there is another problem at play here also. The focused light being emitted from an optical lens is going to be very uniform. If you are ever in a car with stock projectors you will notice that the headlights produce almost the exact same level of light throughout the entire illuminated area. The properties of a halogen reflector will never allow it to be thrown to that level of uniformity. Essentially you are going to end up with hot spots and cold spots in the thrown light. You would absolutely never see that with projector lenses.

The hot spots and cold spots may not seem like a big deal but I can pretty much guarantee if you attempt to drive a car on a rural road where that non uniform light is your only source of illumination you will almost definitely end up with a headache.
 
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Digital Corpus

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I don't disagree with you CF, though there is merit in the experiment. Because I'm running my headlamps at alternator voltage, I have more light and shortened life. Give or take, with 40-45 minutes of runtime over 5 days a week, I get about 6 months on a standard H7 bulb. I cannot recall if I put LL bulbs in last time.
I do want to counter a couple points, even if it is practically semantics. Also, given your background, I'm going to wager you know of the Finnish company, LEDIL. Though my background with lighting is nowhere near as extensive as yours, I'm familiar with the end result and always have a look out for how our human environment is changed from it. You've stated that the light output of lensed lighting applications creates a uniform/even output and though this is possible, it's largely uncommon, especially for streetlight img applications. The emitter plays a huge role in this as well.

Your other points are still quite valid and I love these forums for the sake of diverse backgrounds of each member. Thank you for your input regardless. I do like your first paragraph and it just points to showing that marketing can be taken too far too often.

As an aside from this, an H7 bulb has a filament parallel to the cylindrical bulb so a set/pair of LEDs is required for this application. I've not looked for them, but dimensional specs for the H7 standard is something I want to find and if that means that a custom fixture for specifically sized LEDs is required for proper orientation in a reflector, this is something I'm worth considering. However, I have too many projects in play for me to touch on any of this right now. Or still ;).
 
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There is merit in all experimentation. Like I said, I've been reading this thread with great interest and I will continue to do so. I'm impressed with your approach, as it is certainly more scientific in nature than most of the lighting upgrade threads I've seen.
 
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Some people may find some interesting reading in these links:


http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/2004/NHTSA+Illegal+Lighting+Crackdown+Continues


https://www.sema.org/?q=node/4182


http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/glare.html


Obviously most of this applies to HID and not LED but the principal is the same. The government may be slow to act but when that action comes there is no escaping from it. Eventually the people selling non approved equipment will be dealt with harshly and lose crap loads of money. I feel bad for the people who think they are making money off of this stuff. At the end of the day they are going to regret it all. They might as well give it up sooner than later and save themselves lots of trouble.
 

tongsli

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As an aside from this, an H7 bulb has a filament parallel to the cylindrical bulb so a set/pair of LEDs is required for this application. I've not looked for them, but dimensional specs for the H7 standard is something I want to find and if that means that a custom fixture for specifically sized LEDs is required for proper orientation in a reflector, this is something I'm worth considering. However, I have too many projects in play for me to touch on any of this right now. Or still ;).
I've tried several H7 COB(LED) configurations and all of them mount the COB too high. I found that if you pulled the LED back, it improved the focus and reflective "sharpness" of the light.

The problem then becomes fitting the entire bulb inside the stock housing. I don't know why it's so hard to simulate/build the location of the H7 Halogen bulb with a properly mounted LED.
 

VeeDubTDI

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The Murano LED projectors are interesting, and are probably similar to the Corolla's LED projectors. Anyone interested in LED lighting should consider these options.
 

SilverGhost

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Got these for tiggy - advertised to simulate light from a halogen bulb so that it still has a good pattern. I put them in the high beam - they get attention when you flash, and they light up the country roads well. Haven't found a good place to see how far they light up.

On Amazon for $99 a pair, mod required to hold them in.

"OPT7 LED Headlight Bulbs w/ Clear Arc-Beam Kit - H7 - 60w 7,000Lm 6K Cool White CREE - 2 Yr Warranty"

Jason


Sent from my iPhone
 

tjpeterson96

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3,500 lumens per bulb sounds on par with HIDs. and with cooling fans built in so they wont over heat, and totally water proof. with a 2 year warranty? sounds almost too good to be true. any pics?
 

turbovan+tdi

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I"ve been using these and no fan to worry about.

 

Digital Corpus

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Again, I've not forgot about this thread. In addition, I've been watching Amazon and eBay for any contenders worthy of dropping some money.

For what it's worth, the above product, link to the H7 bulb variant, is not worth the money.

I don't know why it didn't dawn on me, but I decided to measure the filament inside the H7 bulb. It's a 1.4-1.5 mm diameter coil that is 4-4.5 mm tall. In the H7 bulb, the filament is aligned parallel to the direction the beam pattern. Nearly every single high quality LED headlight replacement build using a single chip, high-output, LED is a on a domed and square package of 5 mm height and width. Most cheap LED replacements are CoB, or Chip on Board LED that are *much* larger than this, which is why they do not align with the reflectors well. I'll update the first post as to why 90% of these headlights should be avoided later tonight.

I've just recently, *today* literally, come across a new drop in replacement that uses x2 1x4 array's of Lumileds Luxeon Z ES LED. It's on a 1.64 +/- 0.1 mm by 2.04 +/- 0.1 mm package and though is a CoB array, produced a ~1.64x8.16 mm array. This is larger than the specified 1.5x4.5 mm filament, but it's a whole lot closer to it than ever other LED replacement design I've seen. These LEDs are still being overdriven to produce the 4000 lm per bulb, datasheet states 2940 lm for x8 LEDs @ 6500K with 50% overdrive, but that's more reasonable than other who claim x2 or x3 what the datasheets state. This set will set me back $85, but I haven't seen a set I like more than this one after my initial test so many months ago.
 

Digital Corpus

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First port updated mostly though I'll refine it by the time I get the actual products in. I'm purchasing a set of the bulbs listed above with the addition of 18 (I'm grabbing 2 spares) of the 4000K, 150-180 lm, 90 CRI Luxeon Z ES to drop onto the PCBs for modification.

If the light output is greater than standard incandescent bulbs, I'm going to see if the driver is able to be easily de-potted and I'll be looking to modify the circuitry to bring down the overdrive for longer LED life and less heat output. The LEDs are assumed to being driven at ~233% of their nominal current and only need to be driven at ~125% nom. in order to produce 1500 lumens.
 

tongsli

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I've tried several H7 COB(LED) configurations and all of them mount the COB too high. I found that if you pulled the LED back, it improved the focus and reflective "sharpness" of the light.

The problem then becomes fitting the entire bulb inside the stock housing. I don't know why it's so hard to simulate/build the location of the H7 Halogen bulb with a properly mounted LED.
Still waiting for someone to realize the LED's they are mounting are too "high"
 

SilverGhost

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Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of these LEDs I got off Amazon, so far. Basically the same as the cheap Alibaba crap I got a couple years ago - they throw a bunch of light all over the place (no focus), but not very far down the road. They do work a little better, but still not as good as halogen. More useful for getting attention of inattentive driver than lighting up the road.

Jason
 

Digital Corpus

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So I wasn't prepared for this, but the headlights arrived today. I did a brief unboxing and this is what I can tell already:
  • Solid CNC'd pieced with set screws in the main heat dissipating fins that screw onto the base
  • TIM on the threads of the fins and the body
  • It appears that the 2 arrays of 4 LEDs are in parallel, not series, which isn't good for failure tolerance
  • The PCBs for the LEDs are aluminum substrate boards with TIM between them and the body
  • The CC regulator is pully potted, but it's the soft squishy potting
  • O-Rings and seals around the connectors so it likely meets the IP65 rating, but I can de-pot it to have a look at the circuit
    As shown in the product photos, the H1 mount is secured by 2 set screws so the replacement can be adjusted to fit inside the body properly
  • Despite having the "correctly" sized array of LEDs, the positioning is still suspect so a micrometer will be needed to give an accurate picture as to how these perform
I was not expecting this until next week so it may be 2 weeks before I have photos and my final conclusion formed.
 

tongsli

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I have resigned to the fact that I will need to buy a new car to get LED headlights. For now, OEM HID's with Halogen H7 high beams is the best I'm going to get in the MK4 headlamp.

I also want a full digital cluster(Like the Tiguan) with navigation in the center but nobody is going to make something like that for our cars.

 
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