NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

bhtooefr said:

Already mentioned, it's the fuel line recall.
And, the NHTSA's primary goal is to deal with safety issues. Unfortunately, there isn't strong consumer protection beyond safety hazards in the US.

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Unless you break in and run these new HPFP's on ToofTek lubricity enhancement additive at a 4:1 ratio made from virgin raped seed oil which is filtered down to 2 microns to remove all cosmic debris, to get your wear scar down to eleventy zer0 microns to cure the pumps rollers damn alignment problems, the risk is still eminent that you have a less than .5% failure rate, at least until NHTSA comes out with a more accurate figure.

In summary, worry more, drive less.

[FONT=&quot]Hey guys... a bit of background. I was looking to buy a VW GTI last spring until I discovered the TDI Golf. Did some research and discovered the HPFP issue. Couldn't buy into the chance of a $9000-$11000 repair, so I just gave up on VW and a fix and bought a GTI a couple of weeks ago. Last month I awoke to the Ed Wallace's Wheels radio show. I called and got on! I asked what he though about VW's HPFP issue and to my surprise, I didn't get a positive response from him. He still thinks it's not an issue and the failures were/are "driver stupidity" for putting gas in their diesels. The only thing I can tell him is everything that I've read, since I haven't experienced the failure first hand. So.. I was thinking maybe some of you that have first hand experience with a HPFP failure might like to give Ed a write...? I don't think you would get a welcome response if you called his show, but maybe a write might shed some light on him. ? I was going to include the last email response he sent to me, but that just doesn’t feel right, with out asking him first..? Anyway, if you guys would like to get your stories told, he might be an avenue. Well.. Let me take that back.. I don’t think he would side with ya. Anyway, I would think the more people that become aware of this, if it is truly an issue, the sooner a solution might show up. If you are interested, I can forward his email address to ya or you can google “ed wallace wheels”[/FONT]

Could be a long wait

Even the Passat ignition coil problem that gave VW a reliability black eye does not seem to have great % of customer complaints according to the N.H.T.S.A in this article from Jan 2011.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...oblem-identified-on-nearly-500000-vw-passats/

490000 vehicles from 2001-2006

14+21+199 complaints

.04%


I hope the HPFP issue does not take as long as this N.H.T.S.A investigation.

Hey All

It wasn't the Pump. I had that replaced 2 months ago. They said it was the Turbo.

They think a line loosened or leaked depriving the turbo's bearings and thus it failed.

$3400.00 I asked the extended warranty to reconsider since it happened at 114 thou and that is close to 100 thou but they declined.

I asked if it could of been the result of the mechanic when he worked on the pump failure 2 months and 7000 miles ago and he said that the turbo is on the other side and futher back.

Can I get confirmation on that , please.

My strategy is to find a trusted site mechanic and have him do it. I'll start calling in the am.

Spoke to a guy with an 05 TDI Rabbit and he hasn't had any problems with 140 thou other than a tank sender switch.

On Craigslist the 06 and before TDI's are demanding high prices. Sometimes as high as a high mileage 09 TDI (like mine).

Turbo

My options are to

Let me say a few things about the fuel pump issue.

On my old Cummins 24V... we had issues with this same sort of problem: injector pump failures. Our culprit in the Cummins engines were several key factors: lift pump design, faulty electronics on the injector pump (they were known to fail due to heat cycles of the engine), and most importantly... water / contamination. The #1 factor was when our lift pumps quit lifting fuel from the tanks and pushing it towards the IP. That being said... we upgraded to aftermarket pumps, such as F.A.S.S. or AirDog, and then we installed fuel pressure gauges that measured FP from the LP to the IP... we kept tabs on the pressure gauges and quite frankly... if the FP went sour, we knew to shut the vehicle down.

Perhaps maybe... just MAYBE... the Dodge Cummins VP-44 IP saga I've highlighted above is parallel to the Bosch fuel pump saga of the new VW TDI's??? I think that should be investigated. Whenever a fuel pump is fried and leaves metal behind in the form of shavings... it's obvious that there's no diesel present. Therefore, I conclude a lift pump problem.

What's your opinion on my theory folks?

Your VP-44 isn't a 1:1 comparison to this Bosch CR TDI pump. This pump has a design flaw.

The VP-44 had issues with low inlet pressure which most people fixed with a more reliable lift pump. You could feed the CR TDI pump all the fuel you wanted and I think you'll still get failures.

What's your opinion on my theory folks?

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Not applicable

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/ACM18716976

Does anyone know if VW has responded to this request? NHTSA indicated that VW's response should be provided by 12/16/11.

WECoyote6 said:

Read this article this morning in The Wall Street Journal. FYI.

Jack

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...04802.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

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What we need is an article in The Wall Street Journal

VW TDI Common Rail Owners Worried About Safety Issues This Winter.

Article should start with: There has been an outbreak of ................

eddif

N252CE said:

[ Ed Wallace's Wheels Radio Show.
1) I didn't get a positive response from him.
2)He still thinks it's not an issue and the failures were/are "driver stupidity" for putting gas in their diesels.
3)I don't think you would get a welcome response if you called his show, but maybe a write might shed some light on him.
4) Well.. Let me take that back.. I don’t think he would side with ya.[/FONT]

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Hahahahaha! Do you really think this guy would actually listen? Sorry,but no use trying to talk to that idiot.

Due to all of the internet/news noise about the CR HPFP failures, perhaps compounded by a weak pump design, I suspect Bosch may be working on an improved replacement version. Has ANYONE any insider connections with Bosch/VW that might confirm any rumors of this?

Even if that were the case, I would urge any such person to consider their non-disclosure agreement very carefully. It would be nice if there were some sort of official communication in this matter, but owing to the big liability of all the cars out there, I doubt if this will happen unless someone in the government (i.e. NHTSA) issues a "thou shalt".

At this point, with Volkswagen's handling of the common fail problems, IMO it wouldn't be a bad thing if someone exposed their liability on that issue, and broke a NDA.

ARBY said:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/ACM18716976

Does anyone know if VW has responded to this request? NHTSA indicated that VW's response should be provided by 12/16/11.

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Wow, that's quite a letter. Assuming they provide detailed answers it would shed some light on the scale of the problem.

ARBY said:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/ACM18716976

Does anyone know if VW has responded to this request? NHTSA indicated that VW's response should be provided by 12/16/11.

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We will know when NHTSA makes the response available in their document section under EA11003 investigation. It seems I read somewhere that can take some time if sections of VW's responses have to be redacted.

If the link above fails to work at a future time go here and type in EA11003 in the search box and search. Then at the bottom of the search results page select Document Search.

Plus 3 Golfer said:

We will know when NHTSA makes the response available in their document section under EA11003 investigation. It seems I read somewhere that can take some time if sections of VW's responses have to be redacted.

If the link above fails to work at a future time go here and type in EA11003 in the search box and search. Then at the bottom of the search results page select Document Search.

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Part of the letter discusses confidentiality concerns. Though I've no experience with the government in the regulatory space, I have wrangled with them in litigation over confidentiality concerns. I wouldn't be surprised it if takes some time to hash out. That being said, this request is quite detailed and substantial, going into VW's method of fuel sampling and testing. The response, I'm sure, will be enlightening.

ARBY said:

Part of the letter discusses confidentiality concerns. Though I've no experience with the government in the regulatory space, I have wrangled with them in litigation over confidentiality concerns. I wouldn't be surprised it if takes some time to hash out. That being said, this request is quite detailed and substantial, going into VW's method of fuel sampling and testing. The response, I'm sure, will be enlightening.

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I can't wait for the response. I just hope that the technical aspects of the HPFP especially pump design and test paramenters, comparison with new Delphi pump design, and so forth are not redacted.

VW seems to be hanging their hat on ASTM D975. But we all know that there is no way that "all retail" fuel will ever be able to meet this spec. 100% of the time. All mechanical design processes have a factor of safety which should be based on real world operational parameters the device will see. Apparently, Bosch / VW neglected the uncertainly that exists in the real world. I can't wait for VW's responses to the questions relating to how much water and gas cause a failure.

Not sure about D975, but with ASTM test methods there is usually so much acceptable error built into the method, that some of them are basically worthless. I use on method that has acceptable error of 25% with same operator and same lab and 50% with two different operators in two different labs.

turborod said:

Hey All

It wasn't the Pump. I had that replaced 2 months ago. They said it was the Turbo.

They think a line loosened or leaked depriving the turbo's bearings and thus it failed.

$3400.00 I asked the extended warranty to reconsider since it happened at 114 thou and that is close to 100 thou but they declined.

I asked if it could of been the result of the mechanic when he worked on the pump failure 2 months and 7000 miles ago and he said that the turbo is on the other side and futher back.

Can I get confirmation on that , please.

My strategy is to find a trusted site mechanic and have him do it. I'll start calling in the am.

Spoke to a guy with an 05 TDI Rabbit and he hasn't had any problems with 140 thou other than a tank sender switch.

On Craigslist the 06 and before TDI's are demanding high prices. Sometimes as high as a high mileage 09 TDI (like mine).

Turbo

My options are to

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An $8000 repair, covered, and a $3400 repair, for a wasted turbo, not covered. Only $11,400 in repairs in 3 years.... once out of warranty.

Don't forget the $1700 for the intercooler kit!!

I had a customer of mine show up in a new Q7 TDi today that smelled like leaking diesel fuel when I was working on it. Got done working on it (maintenance) and he asked me about the fuel system... I started yappin about all the HPFP issues on the 2.0L and not so much on the V6. I asked did you spill any diesel while filling up, he says no he just got the car back from the local dealer who replaced the WHOLE fuel system ! He also said they had 2 other Q7s and a A3 in there for fuel system repairs. I told him about all the issues and quickly crossed off a 09 Touareg 2 TDi off my shopping list.

He will forward the info to NHTSA as I asked him to do it. I told him to contact Audi of America to express his concern about the issue if he was driving across the mojave desert and this happened etc. He likes to drive a lot and does trips like this so he isn't comfortable with a car that can leave him stranded in the desert or anywhere. Hes gonna collect every receipt and keep it for records. Hes never mis fueled the car, but has used bio diesel a few times.

I would love to buy a newer CR, as the V6 is sweet in that Q7 but I'm used to my B4 that won't quit running.

If you want a V6 TDI, get a 2.5 and swap it into an older Audi or B5 Passat.

VP44 pump. (Which doesn't have the best reputation, but as long as you keep it fed with fuel, they usually don't blow up, and if it does blow up, you just replace the pump, unlike a CR.)

The other problem that engine has is a poorly designed lubrication system, so they eat cams and lifters (IIRC if you idle too much).

DasTeknoViking said:

I had a customer of mine show up in a new Q7 TDi today that smelled like leaking diesel fuel when I was working on it. Got done working on it (maintenance) and he asked me about the fuel system... I started yappin about all the HPFP issues on the 2.0L and not so much on the V6. I asked did you spill any diesel while filling up, he says no he just got the car back from the local dealer who replaced the WHOLE fuel system ! He also said they had 2 other Q7s and a A3 in there for fuel system repairs. I told him about all the issues and quickly crossed off a 09 Touareg 2 TDi off my shopping list.

He will forward the info to NHTSA as I asked him to do it. I told him to contact Audi of America to express his concern about the issue if he was driving across the mojave desert and this happened etc. He likes to drive a lot and does trips like this so he isn't comfortable with a car that can leave him stranded in the desert or anywhere. Hes gonna collect every receipt and keep it for records. Hes never mis fueled the car, but has used bio diesel a few times.

I would love to buy a newer CR, as the V6 is sweet in that Q7 but I'm used to my B4 that won't quit running.

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Would be nice to have more details about why the Audi dealer decided to replace his whole fuel system. Did he have a pump failure or has Audi decided to be proactive and replace parts that may not have failed with parts that we still don't know if they will or will not fail?

This is a pretty isolated issue in the v6 tdi. Very few failures. There can be random failures with pumps that have no manufacturing flaw. Believe it or not the Equinox had quite a few HPFP failures. ON the gasoline model. Just pointing to 1 or 2 cases means nothing. I personally know of 3 touareg cases. 1 where the gas station had accidently put gas in the diesel hold tank. This happens more than you would like to believe.

The most interesting part of the letter (to me) is at the end, on pages 16 & 17, in discussing the new Delphi Polo HPFP design and how it, by inference, is vastly superior to the Bosch, non-guided, design. I'm sure VW will argue that adopting a "better" (Delphi/Polo) design does not necessarily mean that the older (Bosch) design was inherently flawed. If that premise is allowed, they would not be mandated to replace the current HPFP under recall. If VW is smart, they will get ahead of the curve PR wise and do a voluntary recall/replacement as soon as a qualified drop-in replacement can be engineered. Bosch could/should share in the cost of this.

Niner said:

An $8000 repair, covered, and a $3400 repair, for a wasted turbo, not covered. Only $11,400 in repairs in 3 years.... once out of warranty.

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Times change....I might be back in the VW fold soon. But am getting real tempted by the GTI....

kjclow said:

Would be nice to have more details about why the Audi dealer decided to replace his whole fuel system. Did he have a pump failure or has Audi decided to be proactive and replace parts that may not have failed with parts that we still don't know if they will or will not fail?

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Yeah hes a really good customer of mine, services multiple brand cars with me... What they told him was that they found metal shavings in the fuel filter and that the pump went bad. He was puzzled why they replaced so many things, I set him straight with answers. Like I said, hes worried the pump will crap out again and his wife isn't too comfortable with that thought. Till a fix comes around, I won't waste my time on one of these cars. Everyone who asks about my TDi wants to buy one, but I set them straight to NOT buy a new one. Don't want someone coming back at me later saying I led them to a money pit.

I guees it's a different ball game if your income is from working on cars. When people ask me about buying a VW diesel, I tell them that I am not responsible for any problems but that I love mine and don't worry too much about future issues. Anyone buying and car should do enough homework to feel comfortable about driving away in the car.

I looked at an old bmw several years ago. Took it for a short spin and all was going well until I turned on the defrost. Started blowing smoke into the car. Took it back and told they guy I'd give him $500 for it and start tearing it apart. He wanted $4000. I also had no room for a long term project, so walking away was a win-win.

No matter how things go, a Bosch diesel injector pump has its weaknesses. I think that all IP's do. In the case of the VP-44 on Dodge, it was either due to fuel starvation (which is true for ALL diesel injector pumps), or else due to the computers on top of the VP-44 failing as I have said already. Technical fact reported to me by over 50 mechanics & repair facilities I've spoken to in the past 10 years.

That being said, I think that the pump design on the VW may be attributed to either poor design of the lift pumps (thus causing fuel starvation), or via defective pump builds. ANY diesel injection pump that fails is due to either fuel starvation or poor manufacturing in my view.

For VW to have the position of "misfueling" or "bad fuel" simply does not satisfy me. I'm like many diesel folks who have used diesel from various sources and have seen mixed results. I seriously doubt that their view of the situation is 90% valid. Where's the proof?

I've scanned a lot of our posts on this thread, but I've yet to see an exact or specific cause... just theories abound. Think about it... why does an injector pump die? Answer: bad fuel, no fuel from the lift pump, or a bad pump.

Or, a cheapened design with higher pressure than before, being subjected to lousy fuel.

How much psi does the VW Tdi use in the injection process? 20K psi? 30k psi? Bosch has many products that could fit the bill. In your argument of a cheapened design... maybe, but I would say that Bosch would have addressed that by now.