Managing a sooty tailpipe

Andy_2009_JSW · Oct 5, 2015

Lightflyer1 said:
Yours right above mine. #88. Bob is normal then everything else tiny.

Yep, #88. Here's the HTML source. The "Bob," is a normal font, but the body is tiny. Somehow those font selections got included.

Code:

<!-- message --> 
<div id="post_message_4909775"> 
Bob,<br />  
<br /> 
<font face="Univers-Light"><font size="1"><font color="#231f20"><font face="Univers-Light"><font size="1"><font color="#231f20"><font face="Univers-Light"><font size="1"><font color="#231f20"><font face="Univers-Light"><font size="1"><font color="#231f20"><font face="Univers-Light"><font size="1"><font color="#231f20"><font face="Univers-Light"><font size="1"><font color="#231f20">  
<br />  I agree with you that it is not stated anywhere what the exact test conditions are that set the P0401 error.    we would think the value of concern is the pressure drop over the filter,  but since this varies all over the place, it has to be judged under a specific set of conditions.  (air mass flow, rpm, boost?...)<br /> 
  <br />

[SNIP]

but I would guess they were controlled at this time as well.  <br /> 
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font> 
</div>
 <!-- / message -->

meerschm · Oct 5, 2015

Does it look better now?

not sure what happened.

Andy_2009_JSW · Oct 5, 2015

meerschm said:
Does it look better now?

not sure what happened.

Nope. Those dozen+ font specifiers are now before "Bob," after your edit. No biggie.

meerschm · Oct 5, 2015

just deleted the line before "bob" I never saw any change in font.

Andy_2009_JSW · Oct 5, 2015

meerschm said:
Andy,

Thanks for the post. I was more than half way to your neck of the woods. went to Asheville NC to check out a rooftop tent. managed to get in and out of the state with just a little drizzle and some mud on the tires.

Cool.

your basic settings 78 sure looks to be over the 100 mbar difference which validates high values associated with the P0401. supposed to be over 200C, according to the note.

Curious. I can tell you all for sure that when this P0401 first showed up almost 15 months ago, the CEL came on within a few seconds of startup after it'd been sitting parked all day. No way it was 200C. That at-startup CEL happened several times; several other times it was when less than a mile from my house in the morning when letting off the gas to stop for a traffic light. I think at least once it happened when the engine was at temp and driving down the highway.

your 67 Basic settings is also much lower than the threshold Bob provided. (also validating the tie with P0401)

before the "switch" fiasco came out, I was considering getting the Emisions update to the ECU. A couple folks had suggested (and it seemed to make sense) that the update could have changed parameters to increase life of DPF. checked and called the dealer and verified there was not a recall for my car. there may have been a voluntary update i could have got, but never got motivated enough to get back with the dealer. Now I think I will wait a while and see what is up.

From what I've read the 23o6 update is only for 2010 models and later -- I have no idea why 2009's aren't included or what makes it not apply to them. I never got a letter from VW about it, and my car was at the dealer within the past month and no update was done that I'm aware of. But I'm curious about what makes it not apply to the 2009's.

I logged this in the OBD II area of VCDS. module 9 vehicle info. wonder if the id includes patch codes. (as a standard OBD function, it would be accessible at inspections stations, if they become motivated to look for it)

Mode 9 : Calibration Identification
Type 02 - VIN : 3VWPL71K89M272852 (Address E8)
Type 04 - Calibration ID : 03L997016P 8681 (Address E8)
Type 06 - Calibration Verification Number : 12FFD699 (Address E8)
Type 0A - Controller Name : ECM-Engine Control (Address E8)
Type 0B - In-use performance tracking :
OBD Monitoring Conditions Encountered count : 3087
Ignition cycle count : 6663
Conditions completion count / Specificied conditions encountered count
NMHC Catalyst : 447 / 186
NOx/SCR Catalyst : 0 / 0
NOx Adsorber : 1424 / 3087
PM Filter : 0 / 0
Exhaust Gas Sensor : 0 / 0
EGR and/or VVT : 2627 / 3067
Boost Pressure : 0 / 0 Fuel : 0 / 0

Interesting info/data -- I'll try to grab this same info from my JSW so we can compare.

What, if anything do you plan to do with the DPF and EGR filter in your car?

$64,000 question. Currently just sitting on my hands waiting. DPF ashload is currently reporting as 180ml, which is getting up there. The CEL due to the clogging EGR filter is something I really don't care about -- hell, the whole EGR system effectively gets deleted ("fully blocked") on cars with the DPF delete mod, so I'm not that concerned.

But at some point that DPF and its ash is going to start restricting the exhaust to a point where performance, MPGs, etc start getting affected. Then it'll be decision time: $5K+ for new 2-piece DPF and cat, or half that for a DPF delete and ECU/DSG tunes.

This dieselgate/emissions circus is the wild card here. Will the feds and/or states require specific ECU updates and or mandatory SCR/DEF retrofits (depends on VW's proposals I suppose)? And if so, presumably they'd balk or somehow flag/fail ones that had their DPF fall off? I'm hoping that my DPF will hold out long enough to know if going the delete route is an option, or if all cars will [somehow] be required to be updated/checked. I definitely don't want to spend $2500 for a delete, and then months later be told I need to have a DPF and cat put in at $5500 in order to register/drive the car.

meerschm · Oct 5, 2015

the 200c temp is only for the Basic settings 78 conditions per the chart posted earlier.

we do not know exactly which conditions actually trigger the P0401 error, or when the test runs. heck, it could even set some flag that gets read on startup.

Matt-98AHU · Oct 6, 2015

Some very basic parameters it takes to set the code. Taken from the official repair manual, which is the same info Bentley publishers uses, found under the "Generic Scan Tool" section.

meerschm · Oct 6, 2015

So it looks like the P0401 can also be thrown for a high pressure EGR issue?

Matt-98AHU · Oct 6, 2015

meerschm said:
So it looks like the P0401 can also be thrown for a high pressure EGR issue?

Yes, the p0401 code does not differentiate which EGR is the cause. Strange that there isn't a VAG-specific DTC that helps differentiate which EGR is the culprit... You would think the ECM would be able to tell, unless both are being used at the same time....

Matt-98AHU · Oct 6, 2015

So yeah, that's why you run basic settings on both EGRs as well as the exhaust flap and BS for the L.P. EGR filter to help narrow down what the culprit is.

Unfortunately, outside of the DPF checkseet I found, VW's official repair manual info does not include using those as diagnostic tools.

Instead, VW gives the generic scantool repair and diag procedures in the repair manual and then include sophisticated, automatically generated "test plans" in their ODIS scantool based on trouble codes found. Test plans often times automatically run basic settings and use measured values to make the diagnostic process dumbed down. You are not shown what BS value it is running, you just see the results.

VW seemingly doesn't want their technicians and especially not the public to really better understand these systems. If a test plan isn't very conclusive or you otherwise become stumped, they have a technician's hotline you call. You have to fill in a bunch of info on their web-based ELSA program, write a story, attach ODIS log files and photos where necessary, submit it. ELSA generates an "access code" which you then use when you call the 800 number, give them the access code, they review the material and give you further suggestions on manual diagnostic procedures.

That's the frustrating part, knowing that those guys have access to additional information dealer technicians don't have, let alone the general public. There is a LOT more tricks buried in VW computer systems that even Ross-Tech hasn't figured out yet. As a former dealer tech, that's frustrating. The purposeful hiding of diagnostic and repair information. Nope, you're just expected to follow the "test plan" and don't question it the why's and how's. That never say well with me.

CNGVW · Oct 7, 2015

Matt this flow chart was build before they found cracked DPFs .
To dig a P0401 you would use the news TSB right.
In short is if it is Black/Black at the tail pipe and basic test is close to the 100msg. remove the EGR filter and wipe the inlet pipe black soot replace the DPF and EGR filter.

Matt-98AHU said:
Some very basic parameters it takes to set the code. Taken from the official repair manual, which is the same info Bentley publishers uses, found under the "Generic Scan Tool" section.

Matt-98AHU · Oct 7, 2015

CNGVW said:
Matt this flow chart was build before they found cracked DPFs .
To dig a P0401 you would use the news TSB right.
In short is if it is Black/Black at the tail pipe and basic test is close to the 100msg. remove the EGR filter and wipe the inlet pipe black soot replace the DPF and EGR filter.

Correct. I was simply posting it for the "malfunction criteria and threshold" values, to give a better idea of what the limits are to set the code in the first place, since that's what the question was. And I do not believe the TSB gives you the basic settings to run or what the threshold values there are, only that DPF checksheet I found in VW's servicenet had that...

meerschm · Oct 7, 2015

the TSB also says if you find no soot, proceed with other troubleshooting and fault isolation steps.

on a related note, i took another look at my data, and it is possible that some of the variation I see in the BS 78 values is correlated with the temperature value, more than the place in the DPF soot accumulation/regeneration cycle.

had a regen on the way to work, today, logged the event, and then ran the BS 78. pressure value was over 100 mbar, but the temp was pretty high

after parking for the day, I ran two more BS 78 checks, and got much lower values.

will be a while till I have time to plot the data, and note which was where in the DPF cycle.

Matt-98AHU · Oct 7, 2015

Here's another interesting find in my collection of VW repair data:

CBEA, CJAA measuring value block definitions PDF.

I don't have a commonrail car handy to connect to, but I know from experience that VCDS' label files for these engines isn't exactly complete. This helps fill the gaps.

Of particular interest is the labels for measured value block 91:

91 field 1: Maximum positive EGR regulation deviation
91 field 2: Maximum negative EGR regulation deviation
91 field 3: Air mass at mass air flow sensor, specified value
91 field 4: EGR regulation deviation

Mike, how does VCDS define those fields on your car?

I also had to laugh at MVB 64 field 4. The translator gave up out of frustration. LOL

EDIT: I just noticed that my browser has difficulty opening the PDF. I recommend right clicking and save as, then open using Acrobat. As with most VW repair info docs I've gotten from ERWIN, you have to first page down through 3 pages of warnings and click the "OK" button on the 3rd page. When doing this in my browser, it had difficulty. If anyone else experiences the same, try saving it first then opening in Acrobat.

meerschm · Oct 8, 2015

that pdf has some javascript which some browser configurations tag as risky.

I noticed the list does not include the 240 and 241 MB.

thanks for sharing.

Cgul · Oct 9, 2015

I guess I just want to complain at this point.

After many calls back and forth to my std dealer/service center, VW US, and TDi friends, I have realized that I am rather screwed.

Clocking in with 86k right now, I'm getting an intermittent check engine light, with an insufficient EGR flow code behind it. Dealers say that the EGR pre-filter (?) has failed along with having critically restricting levels of build up in the DPF. Had an "exhaust flap" issue (same symptoms, different diagnosis) little less than 10k ago, that resulted in getting it replaced. VW wont help me at all on this one, due to being 6k above the EPA mandated warranty, so the bill comes to $2,6XX...

I am going to hold off on the (immediate) replacement, (in the hopes that maybe I can do this one myself?), because I am 2 weeks away from a cross country move and cant drop a few extra g's at this point. So, I went ahead and had them just replace my ALSO simultaneously failed right rear wheel bearing, due to the discount, and the service center throwing in the diagnosis in all for $200.

On top of all of that they put me in a pitiful base, automatic Jetta...Guys...I miss my torque.

Has anyone had any experience with the replacement of the DPF? I have located the part for ~$180 but I am having trouble doing the same for a good source of help for the replacement process. On top of that is anyone even sure what the ERG pre-filter even is? Because I sure don't. (after I go to pick up today/tomorrow, ill update with the PN, because right now I am assuming the service writer is just confused on the description.)

Anyways... I think that I am mostly just frustrated, but above all, I'm bummed. Anybody have any advice on what to do next?

TL;DR Boo-hoo, I have a neat car and want to complain about the few issues I have, plus what else would I do on my first post?

wilcharl · Oct 9, 2015

CGUL ... you would be a good candidate for Dr. Bob (CNGVW's) fix... Its a good band-aid and will be an easy install.. Maybe even get you until VW takes action on the emissionsgate

Cgul · Oct 9, 2015

Wilcharl-
Do you mean the full CGN conversion? While I must admit that I giggle a little bit when I think about the fun that would come with the power bump, I just cant sacrafice my boot space and spare tire... Plus (unless I missed something) I think that that would be more than the replacement of both parts...Plus, like, a new turbo...and a set o' rubber.

BTW, apparently I will be picking up tomorrow, as I just realised that it is already 9:30 and probably won't be getting the call today.

meerschm · Oct 9, 2015

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4866599&postcount=5

the suggestion is not a conversion, but a modified EGR filter.

he pulled out the guts of a clogged filter, and replaced it with alternate filter media.

the idea is it would allow the EGR gasses to flow despite the cracked DPF which allows soot to pass through the DPF and into the EGR filter tube.

above is a line drawing of the EGR filter. below is a photo of the one Bob brought to the TDI fest over Labor day.

meerschm · Oct 9, 2015

but for immediate advice, you need to understand/find out if your car is still running the regeneration cycle for the DPF. I suspect it is, since you only have the check engine light on. (if the DPF was getting too much soot captured without an active regeneration cycle, the DPF lamp would be lit, as would the glow plug lamp.

you probably can drive it like this where are you moving to?

meerschm · Oct 9, 2015

a new x suffix (reconditioned) DPF 1K0-254-708-GX runs around $900 and a couple hundred for a new EGR tube.
1K0253120

you could do the work if you are a handy fella. a little complicated since you need to drop the subframe, axle half, and a boat load of sensors.

need a VCDS to tell the computer things are fine, ( I think)

for a very cheap DPF, you want to know the full story of where it came from. some have been reported diverted on the way to scrap because they were cracked.

how sooty is your tailpipe?

meerschm · Oct 9, 2015

You also could just get a new EGR filter and bolt it in. it will clog up sooner or later if the DPF stays, but will get you where you need to go. heck, might even last a year. all depends on how bad the DPF is cracked.

wilcharl · Oct 9, 2015

Someone posted that there filter clogged up almost immediately after just changing the filter. I think this was in the MKV discussion .. Dr. Bob's solution should last much longer and quite honestly I'm anxious for someone to be a guinea pig!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Matt-98AHU · Oct 9, 2015

wilcharl said:
Someone posted that there filter clogged up almost immediately after just changing the filter. I think this was in the MKV discussion .. Dr. Bob's solution should last much longer and quite honestly I'm anxious for someone to be a guinea pig!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yeah, that'll happen when the DPF is cracked and allowing soot by it...

meerschm · Oct 10, 2015

there are also folks who have driven quite a while with a cracked dpf,

it all depends on how large of a crack is in the DPF.

a fine point for discussion is what are the options.

what consequences would there be to driving for a while with a P0401 code from the low pressure EGR filter being clogged by soot bypassing a cracked DPF?

what is the range of time/miles for a replaced EGR filter to fill up again from a cracked DPF/P0401 error?

Cgul · Oct 10, 2015

Meerschm (and wilcharl,I just didn't know it yet),

First off,
THANK YOU! Dr. Bob's fix looks really quite promising, plus, II too am a fan of guineapigs, and don't hate being one in the slightest.

I had assumed that that egr assembly you linked, that I have found in diagram after diagram post dpf was the "pre-filter" so even though I (STILL) don't have my car back, its nice to be able to look at a potential parts list with some more confidence.

Tailpipe appears to only be moderately sooty (i think it looks worse than I would like to believe that it really is due to the white body), but having never had to wipe down before this issue, it has certainly gotten worse. (Also, only real baseline that I have is an old '97 Forrest green TDi (that while it was the first car i really worked on, it was my uncle's, so I did not have constant exposure to its idiosyncrasies), so my baseline may be wayyy off from really being "not that bad"

Ive got full vcds, so that shouldn't be a problem, and I would consider myself to be fairly handy. German sensors make me a little hesitant, but I find its easy to get over such hesitations 8 hours in to a 3 hour job.

The move...is a long one... And certianly not made shorter by my plan for the month of November. I have to get from the MI/IN border to LA on december 1st. But.... I also have a coast to coast stand up tour that is to go from current home, to Onterio, buff, up and down east coast, louisana, up to ks then zig zag across the west up to Portland and FINALLY down to LA. So. Rather a lot. Oh, and did I mention that I have successfully sold everything I own (aside from all of my tools and such, which will be living at my parent's house.) So that the entirety of this move-tour is to be completed in my jetta and nothing more than a roof rack and hitch mount cargo box?

I also am very interested in the timeline for the egr bandaid to clog and fail again.

And of that is too short of a life span, Dr bob's fix seems doable. And like a good way to get through dieselgate, though I may be better off using a card to have VW fix and crossing my fingers that they pony up and reimburse for the fixes related to the entire emissions system.

Sigh... Decisions, decisions.

meerschm · Oct 11, 2015

my guess for the fix is they will pull the NSC and beyond, and replace with a DEF-focused design. not clear at all that they would have to replace the DOC/DPF.

$2700 does not seem like a wildly outrageous price. the parts retail for $1400 (plus a bit for seals and bolts..), and there is a bit of labor involved. living in LA, you will likely need a compliant vehicle, and sooner or later need fully functioning DPF.

you might also consider an independent mechanic.

glad to hear you have the VCDS, so whichever path you choose, you can make informed decisions along the way. would be interested in reports and progress.

would you be willing to run a couple basic settings and share the results?

(now, and once in a while)

conejo_a_cuatro · Oct 11, 2015

Soooooo, I'm now hearing a strange ticking sound from our engine at idle, and I swiped the tailpipe, out of curiosity, and there's a thin black film on the inside. Does this mean that my DPF is now cracked? I've got a little over 60k miles, so I assume I'm covered under warranty?

meerschm · Oct 11, 2015

conejo_a_cuatro said:
Soooooo, I'm now hearing a strange ticking sound from our engine at idle, and I swiped the tailpipe, out of curiosity, and there's a thin black film on the inside. Does this mean that my DPF is now cracked? I've got a little over 60k miles, so I assume I'm covered under warranty?

the ticking could be a few things. not likely related to DPF. there is an 80,000 mile emissions coverage on specific parts. but they only replace things when the engine computer decides to whine. and it seems some dealers do what they can to make the light go out, which could be by charging you for the related part not covered by warranty (EGR tube) you could have a discussion with a local dealer, but not all of them will do more than say we will look at it, if you bring it in, and perhaps pay for a diagnostic or regular service.

several folks have some soot in the tailpipe, and no codes. the question is how long it can be a little sooty and not cause the code.

Andy_2009_JSW · Oct 11, 2015

meerschm said:
I logged this in the OBD II area of VCDS. module 9 vehicle info. wonder if the id includes patch codes. (as a standard OBD function, it would be accessible at inspections stations, if they become motivated to look for it)

Mode 9 : Calibration Identification
Type 02 - VIN : 3VWPL71K89M272852 (Address E8)
Type 04 - Calibration ID : 03L997016P 8681 (Address E8)
Type 06 - Calibration Verification Number : 12FFD699 (Address E8)
Type 0A - Controller Name : ECM-Engine Control (Address E8)
Type 0B - In-use performance tracking :
OBD Monitoring Conditions Encountered count : 3087
Ignition cycle count : 6663
Conditions completion count / Specificied conditions encountered count
NMHC Catalyst : 447 / 186
NOx/SCR Catalyst : 0 / 0
NOx Adsorber : 1424 / 3087
PM Filter : 0 / 0
Exhaust Gas Sensor : 0 / 0
EGR and/or VVT : 2627 / 3067
Boost Pressure : 0 / 0
Fuel : 0 / 0

I'm running the latest Ross-Tech version, 15.7.1.0; it showed a few extra values:

Mode 9 : Calibration Identification

Type 02 - VIN : 3VWPL71K89M280210 (Address E8)
Type 04 - Calibration ID : 03L997016P (Address E8) <---same
Type 04 - Calibration ID : 02E300052 1985 (Address E9)
Type 06 - Calibration Verification Number : 12FFD699 (Address E8) <---same
Type 06 - Calibration Verification Number : 00006218 (Address E9)
Type 0A - Controller Name : ECM-Engine Control (Address E8)
Type 0A - Controller Name : TCM-TransmisCtrl (Address E9)
Type 0B - In-use performance tracking :
OBD Monitoring Conditions Encountered count : 2413
Ignition cycle count : 6133
Conditions completion count / Specificied conditions encountered count
NMHC Catalyst : 305 / 146
NOx/SCR Catalyst : 0 / 0
NOx Adsorber : 963 / 2413
PM Filter : 0 / 0
Exhaust Gas Sensor : 0 / 0
EGR and/or VVT : 2703 / 2411
Boost Pressure : 0 / 0
Fuel : 0 / 0

But it's noteworthy that the calibration ID and verification numbers are identical. Still not entirely sure just what they represent. In many embedded systems 'calibration' is a per-unit concept, and the values calibrated generally vary from unit to unit. Perhaps it has a bit-mapped meaning as opposed to a data integrity checksum one.

I'd be interested in these values for some TDIs that have 100K, 50K, and maybe 5K miles.

Managing a sooty tailpipe

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