MB 300TD/320CDI, advice, discussion, help needed

As I have sold my Ibiza to a friend of mine, I have chosen to start a new project.

I know its no TDI but I also know there are many knowledgeable people on this forum, so I hope you dont mind me starting this thread.

As been already said in the thread title, I decided to start a buildup on a Mercedes Benz, taken a closer look and by advice from shadowmaker (Janne) the basic car will be a E-class with 3.0L turbodiesel engine and 177hp. Engine code OM606.962.

(IF I find one which is not busted by corrosion....)

I am not fixed on a certain hp number, my goals are to have a smokefree, responsive and powerful (for whatever that means*g*) DAILY DRIVER.

To have it smokefree is very important because cops here in Austria always keep an eye on bad smoking cars, and I dont want to get pulled over frequently. And, as a second, i dont think it looks very good on a street use Mercedes which smokes as hell...

To meet my requirements, I have had a nice pm traffic with Janne already, who pointed me in the right direction what hardware will be necessary, and explained important things to look after.

So I know already that I will need an upgraded pump (Myna diesel) get the AT reinforced, exhaust and good IC and of courses a way bigger turbo than the stock kkk k14....

In terms of which turbo to use I am still very confused, I would not limit the choice by the mechanics what will appear to be done, so anything from a single VNT up to a staged system can be done, but the choice of the correct turbo leads me into headache, as I dont know many people who tried out various constellations on this engines.

Janne gave me some hints in the Holset direction which are often used in this engines, but a single HX40 wont meet my requirements of good low end power and response and a smokefree engine.

On a other forum I read about the Holset. HE341Ve which is a variable vanes design, about the size of an GT3576 which should be good for 300-350hp, but as those turbos are not very common in europe it would cost about 2500€…

So I am still interessted in an alternative staged system, but as I am not very experienced in turbo matching mathematics, I would need some help finding a setup which works for above mentioned requirements...

So this is all regarding to the lucky case, that I find a decent basic car, with low mileage and not beeing eaten up by corrosion.

If this should turn out to be impossible, I would also like a E320 or even S320 CDI with the "old" inline 6 engine and 197hp from stock called OM613 ( not the V6 engine with 204 or 224hp...)

The benefit of these OM613 would be, that they can be pushed to about 250hp/550Nm only by remap, the E300 would need a different turbo, pump and a reinforced AT for that, so the higher purchase price for a newer CDI would be relativatet...

But, as i know myself good enough, I am quite sure, that a remap only will get boring sooner or later, so I would need to know where the limits of the CDI injection system are, in case I upgrade the stock GT2359V to something bigger...and what possibilitys do I have to increase fueling over the stock conditions max. level in the Hardware?

Any help, hints, helpful links and so on are greatly appreciated,

so long, Alex

The 320CDI's are not too expensive in the UK, a lot of car for the money IMO, a nice brabus one went for like £4k. I've spoken to a few crazy fins and they seem to prefer the mechanical om606, i would assume a mapper like yourself would be lost without an ECU to tweek though!!

Will be following this thread!! I do like BMW 330d's too though, more performance/handling than the luxury mercedes.

i would've go with 3571v it's pretty easy to find..IN JAPAN! )

bought me 341ve for around 500 dollar, had only a few hunderd hours on it as it came from a engine lab.. looks like new.. it has a DC motor and potentiometer as vane pos sensor so normally someone with little knowledge of microcontrollor can make this work..

You can get 300bhp from 320cdi V6 by only remap. With AMG-injectors (and bigger turbo) something around 430bhp should be doable (290bhp dynoed from 200cdi 4cyl).

But that's like small fishes compared to OM603 (3L 12v IDI) and OM606 (3L 24v IDI). 500bhp is kind of easy and 600bhp doesn't take a genius to build. Our project MB should be around 8-900bhp if we could use it's full potential, but for now we have to settle for around 700bhp. And it's a daily driver with tow bar...

The problem with these have been that electrical controlling is from Satan, so it has to go... Suprisingly that's not the case with our car. Another problem has been that no one has been giving rat's ass about low end power/handling. That's why there's alot of smoke (you can get ~300Nm @2000rpm from these without turbo ) to spool up big turbos (HX40, HX55, GT40...). Sequentials (or compounds for ultimate power) should be used...

Tomorrow we are trying to make a ~10,5s pass on 1/4mile and hope everything stays in one piece. We need to lower fueling from our previous 11,5s 149kmh pass (last 100m braking due to engine sidenoise) as we already know our engine is failing us soon (also 30C promised on weather forecast). We have been able to make some progress on AT and on other stuff though. After tomorrow the engine will be teared down and build for it's full potential... I just hope it doesn't explode before that...

Sounds like a cool project. You guys get all the fun cars over there, it's not fair at all!

If you want a he351ve, they can be had for $200 plus shipping on this side of the pond.

OM606 with compounds or large VNT/VGT is the way. Or Eaton+large turbo Quite longer powerband since it can go way past the 5000rpm that you're stuck with PDs.

Whitbread said:

Sounds like a cool project. You guys get all the fun cars over there, it's not fair at all!

If you want a he351ve, they can be had for $200 plus shipping on this side of the pond.

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Might put one on a 13B just for the sake of it.. I also have a 551VE which is reserved for a 20B with 500Nm from 2000 rpm and 10.000rpm redline if I only had the time to built them

A little translation might be needed before the project actually starts:

In Finland "daily driver" means that you daily _dream_ about driving the car, not actually driving it.

In this perspective I suggest going with common rail technology and tuning it with single VNT or maybe two-stage, with bigger injectors if available. BMW 330d 204hp or Audi A4 2.7 TDI would be my choices for decent prized candidates.

One W210 E320CDI is going to get extreme beating by a fellow countryman, first with AMG injectors and single VNT, later with two turbos. That'll be interesting.

TDIfreak said:

A little translation might be needed before the project actually starts:

In Finland "daily driver" means that you daily _dream_ about driving the car, not actually driving it.

In this perspective I suggest going with common rail technology and tuning it with single VNT or maybe two-stage, with bigger injectors if available. BMW 330d 204hp or Audi A4 2.7 TDI would be my choices for decent prized candidates.

One W210 E320CDI is going to get extreme beating by a fellow countryman, first with AMG injectors and single VNT, later with two turbos. That'll be interesting.

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This one actually needs no translation. It has been doing ~20 000km every year lately and odo is over 350tkm . This one has been over 500bhp for some three years now. Tomorrow it's going to be driven to the track, raced and most likely driven back home too. Only trailer will be attached behind it as the owner is taking some firewood to the cottage with the same trip...

I bet 'tuikku' will be successfull with his 320cdi, but there is also one monster 320cdi being built. Target is 900bhp...

Having a section on this forum dedicated to MB Diesel performance would be GREAT! As other MB sites don't have the VERY insightful members as this one. I forsee many of us tdi diesel heads moving to BMW/MB at least here in the states as they become more available.

I wouldn't trade mine for anything and I've been through many cars. Chipping it has crossed my mind many times but not many tuners want to touch it.

shadowmaker said:

But that's like small fishes compared to OM603 (3L 12v IDI) and OM606 (3L 24v IDI). 500bhp is kind of easy and 600bhp doesn't take a genius to build. Our project MB should be around 8-900bhp if we could use it's full potential, but for now we have to settle for around 700bhp. And it's a daily driver with tow bar..

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Yeah, after $12,000 of modifications!

Having a section on this forum dedicated to MB Diesel performance would be GREAT! As other MB sites don't have the VERY insightful members as this one.

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I can think of three offhand that are far better sources for MB builders than a VW forum.

Pump 1500€ (not sure but would be enough)
Turbo depending on goals 500-1500€
Cooler and plumbing 500€
exhaust manifold. 500 if you don DIY. 300€ for DIY.
Transmission mods 1000-2000.

Way less than 12000$.

About the same to get VW to 300ihs hp. And if you chose the MB parts corectly you can get past 600hp easy.

We made two runs yesterday:

-2,0s(60ft), 7,7s(660ft), 11,4s/208kmh on the line.

-1,509s(60ft), 7,1s(660ft), 11,6s/151kmh on the line.

We didn't get tires hot enough for the first run + we were missing over one bar boost. Still that's our new record and I think that's the fastest ever trap for diesel MB.

For the second run we got tires heated up nicely and got amazing 60ft time. I say amazing as we are using a very old set of "street legal" slicks and original indipendent suspension (OEM springs/shocks) with only adjustable camber and harder bushings added. That's the best 60ft time for diesel MB by 0,1s and our record by 0,4s. After 60ft we were having some traction problems and looking from behind it went like a snake on 3rd gear. At 660ft we were 0,6s ahead the first run so our 10,5s target still seemed possible. It only needed a change miss to neutral and overrevving the engine and we are done for this summer... The car was "driveable", but I bet we bent some valves and maybe a rod too. No oil on the track though. This is motorsport...

For next summer we are not aiming for tens anymore and hopefully trap will be around 220kmh. The car will stay daily driver as weight reducing is for those who don't have enough power...

hatemi said:

Pump 1500€ (not sure but would be enough)
Turbo depending on goals 500-1500€
Cooler and plumbing 500€
exhaust manifold. 500 if you don DIY. 300€ for DIY.
Transmission mods 1000-2000.

Way less than 12000$.

About the same to get VW to 300ihs hp. And if you chose the MB parts corectly you can get past 600hp easy.

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That's about right. For OM603 you need better rods, but OM606 can be unopened up to +600bhp. We are still using original 23:1 compression on our project car.

I have similar thoughts along with Alex for another project, nothing too exotic, but significantly more than a tune.

I have just bought an 05 E280CDI 7G Avantgarde Estate (W11), have I mad a mistake in giving that to the wife and me keeping my Ibiza.(PD130 with 2260VK)

I would really like a seperate section on this forum for special projects as on here we have real characters with knowledge rather than the cardboard cut outs on the others forums that just regurgitate what has been said before. I have been a member for 5 years here and I think I was lurking probably for about 4 years before that.

Diesel_Benz, could you either pm me or post the other forums you were aluding too as I have searched and I only found one or two decent threads by the guy Tuikku.

I think the older straight 6 cylinder mercedes may not be a suitable solution in the UK as cars tend to rust here quickly anyway.

Regards
Chapelhill.

The Non-VW Group Diesel section is for you.

Here's two videos from yesterday.

First run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYl9XsRtssk

Second run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YS_dmaEiAE

hatemi said:

Pump 1500€ (not sure but would be enough)
Turbo depending on goals 500-1500€
Cooler and plumbing 500€
exhaust manifold. 500 if you don DIY. 300€ for DIY.
Transmission mods 1000-2000.

Way less than 12000$.

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You're missing the cost of custom connecting rods.

That's the best 60ft time for diesel MB by 0,1s and our record by 0,4s.

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Not really. My time is only .38s slower with "just" 160hp and traction issues off the line.

We are still using original 23:1 compression on our project car.

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22:1

chapelhill said:

Diesel_Benz, could you either pm me or post the other forums you were aluding too as I have searched and I only found one or two decent threads by the guy Tuikku.

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http://www.superturbodiesel.com/ is the primary source. PeachParts and Benzworld have very low-traffic and contribution in their performance section. Schuman's is outright dead.

I think the older straight 6 cylinder mercedes may not be a suitable solution in the UK as cars tend to rust here quickly anyway.

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The CDI models are great to start with. I know at least one person has produced over 300hp out of a 2.0L CDI with AMG injectors and large VNT turbo. The UK also got far more OM605 and OM606 models than the USA so they're great starting platforms as well.

I have driven an 97' E300 TD today, good condition, very little corrosion only on the right front fender and like new inside possibly due to its low mileage from only 135.000km.
Runs very smooth, good respone of AT actually nothing to complain about.

Tommorow i take a look at a mk 2000 320CDI which has about the same pricing but higher mileage 195.000km.

If its not what I expect, i'll take the 300td from today...

Diesel_Benz said:

You're missing the cost of custom connecting rods.

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Original OM606 are good for +600bhp. How much power you want?

Diesel_Benz said:

Not really. My time is only .38s slower with "just" 160hp and traction issues off the line.

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So you did 1.889s? That's very good with only 160bhp. Still I have to say that our 1,509s is excellent for a daily driver and OEM style rear suspension.

Diesel_Benz said:

22:1

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You might be right. We are using original compression.

shadowmaker said:

Here's two videos from yesterday.

First run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYl9XsRtssk

Second run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YS_dmaEiAE

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Wuahahaha, thats bad-ass

I love that sound coming from some kind of....uhm....BIG TURBO(s)

Add some power and go have some phun on track with your merc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW3C1AYQLnI

Good news, i have bought a car yesterday.

Its a E 320 CDI, mk '00.

I pick it up on friday and will post up some pictures next werk in an new "my build" thread.

The car needs a little work on the brakes and suspension partys like trailing arms and so on, so I will need a little time to get these things sorted out.

Regards, Alex

Your W210 is certainly different from a W124 190. Good luck on your project. Will be very interesting to see what you can do with an OM613. 2-stage turbocharging in the plans?

Well, if "somebody" would help me out with the turbo matching maths, YES *g*

I have a inquiry running for getting high flow injector nozzles manufactured already, I guess I will know next week if they can do it.

If I want the same Hp/weight relation like in my Ibiza, I will need about 450hp*g*

Roughly calculated, I will need a bit more max IQ like i have in the Ibiza now. 110-115....(compared to the ~100mg in the Ibiza) to achieve this...

You have a V-engine so of course you will put on it 2x gtb1756vk.

OM613 is an I-6.

@Majesty: Why stop at 2 turbos?

TDIMeister said:

@Majesty: Why stop at 2 turbos?

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Continue your thoughts please*g*

majesty78 said:

continue your thoughts please*g*

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ok, >2.