Scott_DeWitt
Vendor
Doesn't the BHW have the A/C compressor on the drivers side?
B5v - AFN - 6 Speed - Conversion
- Thread starter Danielg42
- Start date
Danielg42
Veteran Member
Haha yep... turns out the 5 speed motor has a smaller diameter, as well as being shorter than my 6 speed motor.
It was worth a shot though.
Maybe if I could find a motor with the 73mm diameter and 100 mm length instead of 140mm length, it would bolt up.
It was worth a shot though.
Maybe if I could find a motor with the 73mm diameter and 100 mm length instead of 140mm length, it would bolt up.
CharlieT
Veteran Member
No, the motor on the BHW and AVF starters are identical length. It is the aluminum output housing that is longer on the AVF, to house the larger bearing due to lack of end support for the shaft.
I need to go check again. I am 99% sure the manual BGW (I know it is a unicorn) had this same starter motor in ETKA, so it has to fit !
CharlieT
Veteran Member
No. Pass side. But I suspect it is a different AC compressor to the one on the AFN. I know it is a fixed displacement compressor on the BHW, which is kinda wierd for VW of this era. Maybe that makes it shorter.... fingers crossed.
(all the other VWs seem to be variable displacement)
My BHW is on a road trip right now, so cannot take a look for a few days.
CharlieT
Veteran Member
OK. Did some research.
AFN uses AC compressor 8D0 260 805M, which has fittings out the rear (just as you show in your photo) and which will interfere with the starter
BHW and AVF use AC compressor 8D0 260 805Q, which has fittings out the top, and hence is shorter and does not interfere with the starter
For oil fittings:
BHW & AVF use 028 145 736AH
There is also a 028 145 736 AF, which uses a banjo fitting and makes it tighter to the block, and would thus clear the starter.
or
(thanks G60ing !!)
It is not clear if this type is needed, the AVF lists the AH type so I am fairly sure the BHW one will fit fine.
Same thing goes for turbo support bracket.
BHW lists 028 145 535B
AVF lists 028 145 535M for the manual
I am just going to delete the bracket.
For your situation, I think you have two choices.
1. Figure out all the correct AC compressor etc
2. Buy a 240mm SMF and use the BHW starter. It should be fine with a SMF, it will not fit a DMF.
My 01E is very noisy, and I suspect the SMF, hence why I am going to the effort of switching to a DMF. In a few weeks I should know if the SMF is really the cause of noise with the 01E.
The good news is I can breathe again, I have regained confidence I can fit the DMF and longer starter.. You had me worried !
AFN uses AC compressor 8D0 260 805M, which has fittings out the rear (just as you show in your photo) and which will interfere with the starter
BHW and AVF use AC compressor 8D0 260 805Q, which has fittings out the top, and hence is shorter and does not interfere with the starter
For oil fittings:
BHW & AVF use 028 145 736AH
There is also a 028 145 736 AF, which uses a banjo fitting and makes it tighter to the block, and would thus clear the starter.
or
(thanks G60ing !!)
It is not clear if this type is needed, the AVF lists the AH type so I am fairly sure the BHW one will fit fine.
Same thing goes for turbo support bracket.
BHW lists 028 145 535B
AVF lists 028 145 535M for the manual
I am just going to delete the bracket.
For your situation, I think you have two choices.
1. Figure out all the correct AC compressor etc
2. Buy a 240mm SMF and use the BHW starter. It should be fine with a SMF, it will not fit a DMF.
My 01E is very noisy, and I suspect the SMF, hence why I am going to the effort of switching to a DMF. In a few weeks I should know if the SMF is really the cause of noise with the 01E.
The good news is I can breathe again, I have regained confidence I can fit the DMF and longer starter.. You had me worried !
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JFettig
Vendor
Charlie, I have(had) the banjo style on my turbo return, its closer to the AC than anything if I remember correctly, at least on my setup.
I just e-mailed these guys about their 240mm SMF setup, look at the flywheel, does it look like they cut it out for the 5spd starter?
http://www.ringer-racing.com/product.sc?productId=99&categoryId=4
I just e-mailed these guys about their 240mm SMF setup, look at the flywheel, does it look like they cut it out for the 5spd starter?
http://www.ringer-racing.com/product.sc?productId=99&categoryId=4
CharlieT
Veteran Member
Jon, thx.
Daniel in Post #47 thinks that the starter blocks the oil return port in the block. But looking at it again, the starter is tilted due to the AC compressor interference. If it was level, then I think it clears the oil fitting.
Yes, they have undercut the flywheel to allow the 'standard' (shorter) starter to be used. That would be an option, although I am sticking to DMF myself.
Daniel in Post #47 thinks that the starter blocks the oil return port in the block. But looking at it again, the starter is tilted due to the AC compressor interference. If it was level, then I think it clears the oil fitting.
Yes, they have undercut the flywheel to allow the 'standard' (shorter) starter to be used. That would be an option, although I am sticking to DMF myself.
Danielg42
Veteran Member
Wow... I should have checked this at 1 am when I was playing with parts out in the garage.
You're spot on Charlie.... I just figured out that 6 speed starter fits perfectly, with maybe .25 in clearance to the oil return line, when I remove the AC compressor.
Here are some random comparisons of the 5 speed and 6 speed starters and my attempts to fix them together.
Starter housings?
What actually ended up working.
Soooo close!
Need to lengthen my wires! At least the 6 speed starter clears the motor mount without grinding though.
You're spot on Charlie.... I just figured out that 6 speed starter fits perfectly, with maybe .25 in clearance to the oil return line, when I remove the AC compressor.
Here are some random comparisons of the 5 speed and 6 speed starters and my attempts to fix them together.
Starter housings?
What actually ended up working.
Soooo close!
Need to lengthen my wires! At least the 6 speed starter clears the motor mount without grinding though.
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Danielg42
Veteran Member
Also, Mr. Demon_diesel over here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4063805&postcount=95
Is using a starter with the part number: 03G 911 023
It LOOKS substantially shorter in comparison to my 6 speed starter?
Maybe I'll ask him to measure the length of the motor.
Is using a starter with the part number: 03G 911 023
It LOOKS substantially shorter in comparison to my 6 speed starter?
Maybe I'll ask him to measure the length of the motor.
CharlieT
Veteran Member
Great !! glad to know it fits.
Nice to see someone else using millimeters...
Nice to see someone else using millimeters...
Scott_DeWitt
Vendor
Not sure if it matters but there was a tooth ring gear change in the later 2000 model years.Also, Mr. Demon_diesel over here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4063805&postcount=95
Is using a starter with the part number: 03G 911 023
It LOOKS substantially shorter in comparison to my 6 speed starter?
Maybe I'll ask him to measure the length of the motor.
Frans
TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor , w/Business number
There are 2 different starters for the pd130. Long and a short one. I did found a short one. Let me know if you need it Daniel and I will ship it right away
Danielg42
Veteran Member
Oh really! So there is a correct part... if you could send it out, that would be great.
I'll have to post the part number here.
It would be nice to not have to modify the AC bracket with spacers.
I'll have to post the part number here.
It would be nice to not have to modify the AC bracket with spacers.
CharlieT
Veteran Member
I don't think you can use any other starters...
To be clear, there are THREE different starters we are all talking about here :
1. The shortest one is from the 1.8T gas engine. It is shown in post #55, 1st photo, lower starter. You keep calling it a 5sp starter. It is actually a 1.8T starter (used on both auto or 5sp), and is DIFFERENT to the TDI starter (auto and 5sp). The 1.8T starter will not work for you, the motor is too weak for your TDI. It may work short term, but it will burn out and/or kill your battery and wiring.
2. The short TDI starter is 068 911 024F, and is used for auto TDI (such as BHW) and 5sp TDI only. It has a larger 1.7kW motor, needed for TDIs.
3. The long TDI starter is 068 911 024H, and is used exclusively on the TDIs with 6sp 01E boxes. This is because all 6sp 01Es with TDI run the 240mm DMF, and the 240mm DMF does not have an undercut behind the ring gear, thus the 'F' starter will not work. This starter also has the 1.7kW motor. The motor component is identical length to the 'F' starter.
If you still plan to run a 240mm DMF on a longitudinal TDI of this era, there is only ONE starter you can use. The 068 911 024H, the long one you already have. Nothing else will work (consistently).
To be clear, there are THREE different starters we are all talking about here :
1. The shortest one is from the 1.8T gas engine. It is shown in post #55, 1st photo, lower starter. You keep calling it a 5sp starter. It is actually a 1.8T starter (used on both auto or 5sp), and is DIFFERENT to the TDI starter (auto and 5sp). The 1.8T starter will not work for you, the motor is too weak for your TDI. It may work short term, but it will burn out and/or kill your battery and wiring.
2. The short TDI starter is 068 911 024F, and is used for auto TDI (such as BHW) and 5sp TDI only. It has a larger 1.7kW motor, needed for TDIs.
3. The long TDI starter is 068 911 024H, and is used exclusively on the TDIs with 6sp 01E boxes. This is because all 6sp 01Es with TDI run the 240mm DMF, and the 240mm DMF does not have an undercut behind the ring gear, thus the 'F' starter will not work. This starter also has the 1.7kW motor. The motor component is identical length to the 'F' starter.
If you still plan to run a 240mm DMF on a longitudinal TDI of this era, there is only ONE starter you can use. The 068 911 024H, the long one you already have. Nothing else will work (consistently).
Danielg42
Veteran Member
Right... I should call it the 5 speed 1.8t gasser starter.
I believe Frans is talking about a 4th starter, which we don't have a part number or have seen yet.
I believe Frans is talking about a 4th starter, which we don't have a part number or have seen yet.
CharlieT
Veteran Member
I am pretty sure it will be a 'F' starter, same as the BHW here.
It won't fit.
Sorry.
It won't fit.
Sorry.
Danielg42
Veteran Member
Well, with that in mind, I pushed it all into place last night.
It was 1:30 when I actually got it sitting straight.
Still have a long ways to go, but at least I'll be able to bolt up the axles and get the front end on, so mom will get off my case about the jackstands.
There is a 6 speed back there...
It was 1:30 when I actually got it sitting straight.
Still have a long ways to go, but at least I'll be able to bolt up the axles and get the front end on, so mom will get off my case about the jackstands.
There is a 6 speed back there...
JFettig
Vendor
I love how easy it is to work with the B5 engine bay!
Danielg42
Veteran Member
yea! It's so nice to just be able to walk in there.
One thing I need for next time I do a transmission/engine... is a transmission jack!
My cherry picker doesn't allow me to adjust the side to side angle of the lump and it is quite annoying when you're trying to lever one of the transmission mounts over the axles.
Another thing is... my shifter rods are not above the transmission! I didn't think to wire them up high, so they're no where near where they're supposed to be.
I'm going to try and drop the shifter box, then thread them up and over. Hopefully I don't have to move the engine/trans forward again to get the shifter hooked up right.
One thing I need for next time I do a transmission/engine... is a transmission jack!
My cherry picker doesn't allow me to adjust the side to side angle of the lump and it is quite annoying when you're trying to lever one of the transmission mounts over the axles.
Another thing is... my shifter rods are not above the transmission! I didn't think to wire them up high, so they're no where near where they're supposed to be.
I'm going to try and drop the shifter box, then thread them up and over. Hopefully I don't have to move the engine/trans forward again to get the shifter hooked up right.
Danielg42
Veteran Member
It's been a busy few weeks. Moved out of the parents house cause I got married. Anyway, I've been back on the project for a couple days.
Put the front end back on loosely, so it looks like a normal car in the driveway.
Got the shifter hooked up to the trans correctly, all the motor mounts bolted down, axles hooked up, clutch line/pedal bled, all but one coolant hose connection secured, engine and transmission filled with their respective oils, flushed the gas tank and put a couple gallons of diesel in there.
The next orders of business.
Connect the last coolant hose. The AFN has normal pipes going to the heater core, where as the 1.8t had plastic locking hose connectors, kind of like the radiator ones, so I have to cut them off.
Hook up the in tank fuel pump to the fuel filter. Planning to use an H pipe fitting to keep the fuel pressure down and hook the fuel pump relay to the fuel shut off solenoid on the pump.
WIRES! It's like my toyota all over again, but I'm going to be able to do it a lot more neatly.
First step is to get the starter cranking over when I turn the key.
Anyway, I've been back on the project for a couple days. Put the front end back on loosely, so it looks like a normal car in the driveway.
Got the shifter hooked up to the trans correctly, all the motor mounts bolted down, axles hooked up, clutch line/pedal bled, all but one coolant hose connection secured, engine and transmission filled with their respective oils, flushed the gas tank and put a couple gallons of diesel in there.
The next orders of business.
Connect the last coolant hose. The AFN has normal pipes going to the heater core, where as the 1.8t had plastic locking hose connectors, kind of like the radiator ones, so I have to cut them off.
Hook up the in tank fuel pump to the fuel filter. Planning to use an H pipe fitting to keep the fuel pressure down and hook the fuel pump relay to the fuel shut off solenoid on the pump.
WIRES! It's like my toyota all over again, but I'm going to be able to do it a lot more neatly.
First step is to get the starter cranking over when I turn the key.
SuperAdellic
Veteran Member
Congratulations! Hopefully she's okay with projects as you seem to be collecting them. Good work on the B5V so far. Keep it up. Wiring jobs get easier every time you do them.
Danielg42
Veteran Member
Thanks! She's fine with a bit of work on the car, as long as she gets to go shopping when I'm working.
I've got the ECU hooked up in its most basic form right now, but it's not starting.
The ground point on the engine wiring harness is grounded.
0V: Pins 1 - 24 - 46
The ecu power pin in my t10 yellow connector is to 12volts.
12V: Pins 23 - 45 - 68
And the ignition switch is matched to my passat's ignition switch.
Ignition switch: Pin 38
I also hooked up the kline and scanned it and got a nice batch of codes... half of which are probably from my brake pedal switches not being plugged in.
More work coming up on Thursday night!
I've got the ECU hooked up in its most basic form right now, but it's not starting.
The ground point on the engine wiring harness is grounded.
0V: Pins 1 - 24 - 46
The ecu power pin in my t10 yellow connector is to 12volts.
12V: Pins 23 - 45 - 68
And the ignition switch is matched to my passat's ignition switch.
Ignition switch: Pin 38
I also hooked up the kline and scanned it and got a nice batch of codes... half of which are probably from my brake pedal switches not being plugged in.
More work coming up on Thursday night!
Code:
Tuesday,12,February,2013,21:39:59:13230
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.4
Address 01: Engine Labels: Redir Fail!
Control Module Part Number: 028 906 021 CE
Component and/or Version: 1.9l R4 EDC 20SG 0803
Software Coding: 00002
Work Shop Code: WSC 00083
VCID: 54A7C4E6A4C8E1B8D5D
8 Faults Found:
00741 - Brake Pedal Monitoring
27-00 - Implausible Signal
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00777 - Accelerator Position Sensor (G79)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01265 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve (N18)
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
01262 - Solenoid Valve for Boost Pressure Control (N75)
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00527 - Intake Manifold Temperature Sensor (G72)
30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
01269 - Commencement of Injection Valve (N108)
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
01266 - Glow Plug Relay (J52)
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
Readiness: N/ADanielg42
Veteran Member
Ok, I know when I'm beat... your expert wiring help is needed :/
I've connected all the 'correct' wires I can find on the wiring diagram I've found here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3J0cunSJw4Ac0QtWk1YQTh6V3c/edit?usp=sharing
Specifically,
t6z pins 1 and 4
t10z pins 4 and 8
Before, I was just hooking up t10z - 4 (which hooks to pins 23-45-68 on the ECU) and the grounding point on the harness.
All these 'extra' wires that I've hooked up, seem to make no difference, as far as the codes on the ECU are concerned. Any education is appreciated!
I've connected all the 'correct' wires I can find on the wiring diagram I've found here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3J0cunSJw4Ac0QtWk1YQTh6V3c/edit?usp=sharing
Specifically,
t6z pins 1 and 4
t10z pins 4 and 8
Before, I was just hooking up t10z - 4 (which hooks to pins 23-45-68 on the ECU) and the grounding point on the harness.
All these 'extra' wires that I've hooked up, seem to make no difference, as far as the codes on the ECU are concerned. Any education is appreciated!
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Danielg42
Veteran Member
Hah!
Well I've eliminated some codes...
Here's what I'm fighting with currently.
Anything look like it would cause a 'no start' condition?
From what I'm reading, it should be able to at least run, albeit poorly, with the n108 code.
Well I've eliminated some codes...
Here's what I'm fighting with currently.
Anything look like it would cause a 'no start' condition?
From what I'm reading, it should be able to at least run, albeit poorly, with the n108 code.
Code:
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01262 - Solenoid Valve for Boost Pressure Control (N75)
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00527 - Intake Manifold Temperature Sensor (G72)
29-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
01269 - Commencement of Injection Valve (N108)
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
01266 - Glow Plug Relay (J52)
31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - IntermittentDanielg42
Veteran Member
heyo!
Looks like I'm doomed to constantly learn.
note to self, check the wires and plugs! I managed to plug the three pin injection pump plug into another couple sensors, close by.
Serves me right for assuming all the plugs were unique! anyway, I got a bunch of smoke out of the exhaust yesterday night, but ran out of time before I got her started up.
Now that I know the main reason for my no-start, I'm a lot more confident.
We're back on track!
Looks like I'm doomed to constantly learn.
note to self, check the wires and plugs! I managed to plug the three pin injection pump plug into another couple sensors, close by.
Serves me right for assuming all the plugs were unique! anyway, I got a bunch of smoke out of the exhaust yesterday night, but ran out of time before I got her started up.
Now that I know the main reason for my no-start, I'm a lot more confident.
We're back on track!
deep_sea
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2011
- Location
- Bastrop, TX
- TDI
- '06 Jetta TDI 5spd, 1997 F350 Power Stroke, '13 Jetta TDI 6mt
I'm not a guru, but it looks as if you are on the right track to get this going. As I am talking to Frans about a kit also, I am very interested in seeing you get this done. I think I am going with a BHW and 6 spd to put into my 03 1.8T. Keep it up, looking good.
CharlieT
Veteran Member
I am in Houston and have done this swap twice now, so shout if you need some help.
Nice avatar, looks like a Boa AHV but I can't tell which ? I guess you are oil patch too ?
Danielg42
Veteran Member
Thanks for the encouragement!
I'm fighting with the exhaust pipe right now!
the AFN cat bolts to the 1.8t intermediate pipe, but it appears to be off 120 degrees... or maybe I just accidently bolted it together 120 degrees off and can rotate it to the correct orientation.
Hopefully the bolt pattern is an equilateral triangle, or I may need to do some exhaust welding.
I'm fighting with the exhaust pipe right now!
the AFN cat bolts to the 1.8t intermediate pipe, but it appears to be off 120 degrees... or maybe I just accidently bolted it together 120 degrees off and can rotate it to the correct orientation.
Hopefully the bolt pattern is an equilateral triangle, or I may need to do some exhaust welding.
Danielg42
Veteran Member
Had to cut the downpipe before it shoots back to the muffler...
In other news, I got it running... jumped the shut off solenoid to 12 volts. Not sure why the ECU isn't feeding it power yet.
Here's a short video of it running for the first time in a while! I'll get a better video up soon enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM_rw6EcRFY
I couldn't wait, so I drove around the block without the dash hooked up or even the vacuum lines for the turbo. It's going to be nice!
This week's goal is getting that all wired in correctly.
In other news, I got it running... jumped the shut off solenoid to 12 volts. Not sure why the ECU isn't feeding it power yet.
Here's a short video of it running for the first time in a while!
I'll get a better video up soon enough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM_rw6EcRFY
I couldn't wait, so I drove around the block without the dash hooked up or even the vacuum lines for the turbo. It's going to be nice!
This week's goal is getting that all wired in correctly.
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Danielg42
Veteran Member
Well the dash is all hooked up and functional. I've got everything coded.
The only sensor that seems to be in conflict is the Coolant Shortage Switch. Maybe the Audi one is grounded when it's full? or vice, versa... I'm gonna check it later tonight.
Oh and I need to find out which pin on the ECU is the fuel consumption pin, so I can hook up that part of the MFD.
got a guy to weld up my downpipe to the muffler, so it's properly quiet now.
6th gear is nice!
The only sensor that seems to be in conflict is the Coolant Shortage Switch. Maybe the Audi one is grounded when it's full? or vice, versa... I'm gonna check it later tonight.
Oh and I need to find out which pin on the ECU is the fuel consumption pin, so I can hook up that part of the MFD.
got a guy to weld up my downpipe to the muffler, so it's properly quiet now.
6th gear is nice!