Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

Perfectreign said:

LOL - one of my friends is an orthopedic therapist. She deals with people who survived these accidents and has to somehow help them to walk again.

She knowingly refers to motorcycles as "donorcycles."

Wish they'd ban them.

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Don't tell that to this almost-30-year experienced motorcyclist with a wall full of trophies from my roadracing career.

What's your favorite pastime? Would you be offended if somehow a bunch of people who have no knowledge or experience with whatever that pastime is, told you that you couldn't do it any more for whatever reason they could contrive up?

Let people do what they want to do, and keep your uninvolved fingers out of their matters.

Yes, you struck a nerve.

* * *

Why would this experienced motorcyclist with an expert roadracing license rather ride a 200 horsepower superbike than a <1 horsepower e-bike?

Because the superbike has thoroughly competent chassis, suspension, brakes, and tires, and is exceptionally good at doing what the (competent) rider asks of it. No, the bike doth not suffer fools, and it WILL bite back against incompetence.

The e-bikes have wheels that are too small (poor stability), bad suspension, bad brakes, and not much of a chassis.

That really depends on the e-bike, to be fair.

I agree with both of you on the equipment discussion, but the most important equipment is the same as the car. The brain of the person operating it. I ride bicycles in a lot of groups and learn to avoid those riders that don't always engage the gray matter. For me, helmet and lights are always on for any length of ride. The lights may stay off next week while I'm doing RAGBRAI.

gulfcoastguy said:

They are not yet to where I would accept them as an alternative to my TDI Sportwagen. In another 8 years or so they may be and I'll revisit the issue then.

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Yup, that's what I used to think too...until I bought an EV.

I drove our Sportwagen after a couple of weeks of driving the Mercedes B250e. By comparison, the TDI felt so crude...noise...vibrations...diesel exhaust smell...and turbo lag. All things that I accepted as "normal" but none of which exists in our EV.

Perfectreign said:

LOL - one of my friends is an orthopedic therapist. She deals with people who survived these accidents and has to somehow help them to walk again.

She knowingly refers to motorcycles as "donorcycles."

Wish they'd ban them.

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Not me; I might need their organs.

GoFaster said:

...
What's your favorite pastime? Would you be offended if somehow a bunch of people who have no knowledge or experience with whatever that pastime is, told you that you couldn't do it any more for whatever reason they could contrive up?
...

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Now THAT sounds a lot like the EPA with our diesels!

So, i was thinking at EV to replace my soon to be gone 09 JSW...what do you think about a 2012-13 Volt with approx 60K miles on it? Would cost a little bit more than what i get from my 09 JSW (in the 11-12K range).

Alternatively i can see some CPO 2013 with 35-40K for 14,900

I have also a question about the carger: can it be installed outdoor?

If i travel somewhere, do i need to bring the charger with me, or i can plug the car to a regular 120V outlet?

Thanks

So, I know that this is being a bit pedantic, but the charger is part of the car, you need the EVSE (which is what most people think is the charger).

The car should come with a 120 V EVSE - one end is a 120 volt wall plug, the other end plugs into the car's charging port. I believe it's outdoor-rated. If you want to plug into a 120 volt outlet, you'll need to have it with you.

If you go to a public charging station, you don't need your own EVSE - the charging station is its own EVSE.

At home, you can either use the 120 V EVSE that the car comes with, a second 120 V EVSE that you buy, or a 240 V EVSE (for faster charging). Make sure that if you buy another EVSE, it's outdoor rated if you want it outside.

bhtooefr said:

So, I know that this is being a bit pedantic, but the charger is part of the car, you need the EVSE (which is what most people think is the charger).

The car should come with a 120 V EVSE - one end is a 120 volt wall plug, the other end plugs into the car's charging port. I believe it's outdoor-rated. If you want to plug into a 120 volt outlet, you'll need to have it with you.

If you go to a public charging station, you don't need your own EVSE - the charging station is its own EVSE.

At home, you can either use the 120 V EVSE that the car comes with, a second 120 V EVSE that you buy, or a 240 V EVSE (for faster charging). Make sure that if you buy another EVSE, it's outdoor rated if you want it outside.

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Thanks for the explanation. So basically if i plan a trip, i always need to bring the EVSE with me.

What do you think of the cars i mentioned in the post above?

Claudio said:

So, i was thinking at EV to replace my soon to be gone 09 JSW...what do you think about a 2012-13 Volt with approx 60K miles on it? Would cost a little bit more than what i get from my 09 JSW (in the 11-12K range).

Alternatively i can see some CPO 2013 with 35-40K for 14,900

I have also a question about the carger: can it be installed outdoor?

If i travel somewhere, do i need to bring the charger with me, or i can plug the car to a regular 120V outlet?

Thanks

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The Volt is one of the best rated EVs out there. We just test drove a 2017 yesterday and it was pretty nice. Not as nice as our eGolf but nice still. It's tiny on space, though. The 2013 looks sportier than the 2017 in my wife's opinion, but the 2016/2016 has over 50 miles of range on pure electric. I'd have a hard time rationalizing an older model. The Volts are selling at around 30K per month. At this rate, and once the Bolt comes out, the federal incentives for Chevy will be gone so you do need to act quickly. That said, I'd wait for the Bolt and do a comparison.

We have a 2012 JSW. We also drove a Hyundai Sonata PHEV yesterday. It's also very nice, and get a nice 24 mile range. Half the range of the new Volt but a worthwhile contender because it's the size of a Passat (Hyundai Sonata PHEV, Kia Optima PHEV) instead of a Beetle (Volt).

The Hyundai/Kia also have 10yr/100K mile powertrain warranties, 5/50 bumper to bumper, nice incentives but they aren't really moving down from sticker price probably since these are just pure compliance cars.

Whatever you do, don't buy any EV. Lease is where it's at right now, imo. You get the tax incentive upfront and technology is changing too quickly. You'll be kicking yourself in the butt in three years if you still have another couple years of loan left on your significantly outdated model.

Oh, I almost forgot. I also looked at a Chrysler Pacifica yesterday. They don't have the PHEV out yet but it will be later this year. Look at one of those if you want the JSW space.

Don't leave out an eGolf, though. A MKVII Golf is a nice car in it's own right. If you can swing your commute in under 80 miles it's worth looking in to. We lease ours for $200 per month and didn't put a penny down when we drove it off the lot. We have a $12K residual if we want to purchase it at the end, which means we could potentially own it for about $17K when all is said and done. I would be surprised if VW doesn't offer us a significant discount when the lease ends. But I don't know if VW has a non-negotiating policy. If they do, they can crush it because it'll be worth it's weight in scrap. There's no way it will be worth 12K in two more years. Even VW will have outpaced it by then.

Well, with a Volt, you don't have to have the EVSE on a trip - you can (for a 2011-2015) just fill it up with premium unleaded.

In any case, buying EVs should only be done if it's a Tesla, or it's used. Buying a used EV (including PHEVs), with the steep depreciation, can actually make sense.

I have no opinions on the actual Gen 1 Volt, other than that the gasoline efficiency isn't great, and it takes premium. It may well still make sense for you, though.

+1 for lease or buy used. The depreciation on short range EVs is incredible.

If you live in a high incentive state, it's difficult to make the case for buying used, too.

In California (when the EV refund is funded), we get $2,500. The federal *credit* (important distinction) is $7,500. So when you buy used keep in mind that the car already received around $10K off sticker.

That's why I said if VW doesn't offer me major incentives to buy out our lease we'd just let it go because we can turn around and lease another one for the same amount of money with better technology.

It looks like it might be $4K in IL, making it even more lucrative to lease a new one.

That's a good point. I had forgotten about additional state incentives. A friend in CA recently purchased an eGolf for some ridiculous price like $15-17K out the door. That's a good deal and definitely makes up for the crazy depreciation.

NC doesn't currently offer any additional incentives on electric cars.

bhtooefr said:

So, I know that this is being a bit pedantic, but the charger is part of the car, you need the EVSE (which is what most people think is the charger).

The car should come with a 120 V EVSE - one end is a 120 volt wall plug, the other end plugs into the car's charging port. I believe it's outdoor-rated. If you want to plug into a 120 volt outlet, you'll need to have it with you.

If you go to a public charging station, you don't need your own EVSE - the charging station is its own EVSE.

At home, you can either use the 120 V EVSE that the car comes with, a second 120 V EVSE that you buy, or a 240 V EVSE (for faster charging). Make sure that if you buy another EVSE, it's outdoor rated if you want it outside.

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and EVSE is short for Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.

the next question will be what kind, and the answer is,

it all depends.

the supply equipment has to talk to the charger on the car, so that the voltage applied and the current the car pulls are compatible.

feel free to let me know I am wrong, but there is not yet agreement or standards between the car makers and infrastructure suppliers.

as I may have said before,

common standards is an oxymoron.

There is absolutely agreement and standards for standard AC charging.

In the US, everything that isn't a Tesla product uses J1772 for AC charging up to 240 volts, 80 A. Tesla uses the same protocols as J1772 on their proprietary connectors, and supplies adapters to J1772.

So, you can use any car with any J1772 EVSE, and the car and EVSE will negotiate for what power the car can take and the EVSE can supply.

Claudio said:

What do you think of the cars i mentioned in the post above?

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I seriously considered the Gen 1 Volt as newer, low mileage ones are cheap but when I saw one in person, it also felt "cheap" and that sloping roof while somewhat stylish, makes for a small cargo area.

If you're leasing, the eGolf is a nice car but I certainly wouldn't recommend owning one for the longer term because like the Nissan Leaf, it has no active cooling for the battery pack, so range tends to degrade more than others.
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/31/vw-e-golf-will-not-have-active-cooling-system-lithium-battery/

That 80 mile range car could be down to 60 miles in a few years.

There are huge deals to be had on the used market on all 24-28kWh compliance EV's. We ended up buying a 2014 Mercedes B250e with 6K miles for less than half of MSRP.

bhtooefr said:

There is absolutely agreement and standards for standard AC charging.

In the US, everything that isn't a Tesla product uses J1772 for AC charging up to 240 volts, 80 A. Tesla uses the same protocols as J1772 on their proprietary connectors, and supplies adapters to J1772.

So, you can use any car with any J1772 EVSE, and the car and EVSE will negotiate for what power the car can take and the EVSE can supply.

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J1772 is pretty well thought out standard.

but I would think the Tesla example kind of proves the point.


and it seems the DC fast charging still has a few loose ends.

The point that Tesla provides adapters does not make them compliant with the standard

Yeah, DC fast charging is still a dumpster fire of incompatible standards. And, it's only one manufacturer that violates the standards for L1/L2 AC charging.

(As I understand, the reason why Tesla didn't use J1772 is because there wasn't originally 80 A support in the spec, so Tesla went and did their own connector for the Roadster. Then, 80 A support was added to the spec, but then Tesla wanted something capable of DC fast charging on the same connector, so they did another connector for the Model S.)

Yeah, J1772 is about all the EV market really needs at this point. Tesla continuing to use their proprietary port is about as stupid as apple still refusing to use micro-USB. DC charging is really not ideal, especially when the cars that do support DC charging, are carrying around AC chargers anyway. I'd rather my car handle the battery management for it's own battery than to hand it off to an anonymous box in a parking lot.

thanks everybody for the kind responses.

My "plan" was to use the buyback money (almost 11K) to get a used EV, then resell it in a couple of years when the Tesla 3 would be finally available in IL (i did not pre-order, so i assume it would be late 2018-beginning 2019?)

My commute is about 85 miles/day

I would like to see the US adopt Europe's Mennekes connectors, which support L1, L2, 3-phase AC, and DC fast charging in the same connector. Tesla uses Mennekes in Europe with modified pin lengths for supercharging. Unfortunately, we've already started rolling out infrastructure (slowly), so a lot of modification would be required to switch to Mennekes.

Claudio said:

thanks everybody for the kind responses.

My "plan" was to use the buyback money (almost 11K) to get a used EV, then resell it in a couple of years when the Tesla 3 would be finally available in IL (i did not pre-order, so i assume it would be late 2018-beginning 2019?)

My commute is about 85 miles/day

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Honestly, with an 85 mile/day commute, I think a PHEV is probably a better option than even a 200 mile EV.

Claudio said:

thanks everybody for the kind responses.

My "plan" was to use the buyback money (almost 11K) to get a used EV, then resell it in a couple of years when the Tesla 3 would be finally available in IL (i did not pre-order, so i assume it would be late 2018-beginning 2019?)

My commute is about 85 miles/day

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If your commute is 85 miles per day, I'd recommend looking at an EV that has 120 miles of range. That should provide plenty of buffer for heat and air conditioning use in uncooperative weather, as well as provide a little buffer for battery degredation.

A few early LEAF buyers got caught with their pants down when their battery degredation left them unable to complete their ~70 mile commutes. That said, due to Nissan's choice of battery chemistry, the LEAF has suffered from battery degredation far more than any other EV I've researched.

VeeDubTDI said:

I would like to see the US adopt Europe's Mennekes connectors, which support L1, L2, 3-phase AC, and DC fast charging in the same connector. Tesla uses Mennekes in Europe with modified pin lengths for supercharging. Unfortunately, we've already started rolling out infrastructure (slowly), so a lot of modification would be required to switch to Mennekes.

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When you're rectifying it down to DC anyway, 3-phase is not really of much benefit. Combine that with the fact that MOST EV charging still happens at residences, and US residences do not typically have 3-phase power makes it completely pointless.

240V 80A can charge a LOT of juice into a battery, and much faster ends up pushing the risk to the battery itself, so the chemistry pretty much limits charging more than the supply connection.

You're right that 3-phase capability wouldn't be that important in the US, but it is prevalent in Europe. I'm suggesting adopting the connector for international consistency as well as L1, L2, and L3 support out of a single connector rather than requiring J1772 + CHAdeMO, CCS, or other DCFC connector.

80 amps of 240V is just shy of 20kW, which is a charge rate of approximately 60 mph. That is significantly less than DC fast charging stations, which range from 50kW for CHAdeMO to over 100kW for Tesla's Supercharger network. Today's lithium ion traction batteries have absolutely no issues accepting these charging speeds, especially with active battery cooling.

VeeDubTDI said:

If your commute is 85 miles per day, I'd recommend looking at an EV that has 120 miles of range. That should provide plenty of buffer for heat and air conditioning use in uncooperative weather, as well as provide a little buffer for battery degredation.

A few early LEAF buyers got caught with their pants down when their battery degredation left them unable to complete their ~70 mile commutes. That said, due to Nissan's choice of battery chemistry, the LEAF has suffered from battery degredation far more than any other EV I've researched.

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Could also be the Nissan choice of how to handle thermal management of the battery.

meerschm said:

Could also be the Nissan choice of how to handle thermal management of the battery.

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That, too. Battery degredation is most rampant in hot climates like the southwest.

VeeDubTDI said:

You're right that 3-phase capability wouldn't be that important in the US, but it is prevalent in Europe. I'm suggesting adopting the connector for international consistency as well as L1, L2, and L3 support out of a single connector rather than requiring J1772 + CHAdeMO, CCS, or other DCFC connector.

80 amps of 240V is just shy of 20kW, which is a charge rate of approximately 60 mph. That is significantly less than DC fast charging stations, which range from 50kW for CHAdeMO to over 100kW for Tesla's Supercharger network. Today's lithium ion traction batteries have absolutely no issues accepting these charging speeds, especially with active battery cooling.

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I'm not saying the 2623 (Mennekes) connector isn't better or more capable - but it wasn't really part of an approved standard until a few years ago, while J1772 was approved in 2009 I think. Just one of those things where what's here may not be better than what's available, but it is what is here, and currently, standardization is more important that optimum performance. J1772 is around, relatively cheap, and capable enough for most uses, so it is what will be used for quite some time going forward.

That said, J1772 does support a 'combo connector' much like Mennekes high current DC option, that uses the same interlock and control pins and supports 90kW of DC charging, if manufacturers choose to use it - I believe the Spark EV and i3 both have this combo plug.