Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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bhtooefr

bhtooefr

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2015vwgolfdiesel said:
..... and EVs pay how much of the 1/5 th ?
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In 2020, zero emission vehicles will pay a $100 annual tax.

At the average annual mileage of 11,346 miles for a light-duty vehicle nationwide, the 76.7 cents per gallon of total gasoline taxes that come into effect in California in 2019, and the 58.3 cents per gallon of state gasoline taxes in California, that's equivalent to 87 miles per gallon on total tax, or 66 miles per gallon on the state tax. So, it's not near the national average for light-duty vehicles, but there's the aforementioned benefits to EVs that reduce requirement for tax revenue.

Also, your state has also enacted a $100 EV tax, and a $30 plug-in hybrid tax.
 
compu_85

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2015vwgolfdiesel said:
..... and EVs pay how much of the 1/5 th ?
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In Virginia anyway, the EV tax we pay ($64) works out almost exactly the same $$ in diesel fuel tax if I drove my SDL 7500 miles @ 22 mpg.

rotarykid said:
...I did not see a single tesla anywhere .... these things are still only a rich $^&*(! toy, not a real average person's transportation.....at least not yet....
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One thing to keep in mind: A car purchase is a percentage of a person's cost of living. The cost of living isn't the same everywhere, but the cost of a specific model vehicle is basically the same no matter where you live. So a $40,000 used Tesla might be a big chunk of change to someone in rural MI where their house is worth $85,000, but in Northern VA where a house the same size costs almost $400,000, that $40,000 Tesla isn't as large of a relative expense.

-J
 
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\/\/0J0 said:
What I want to know is: Where is my free fuel?? Why do people that have bought an EV get to drive around for free and avoid paying road use taxes (by not buying fuel that is taxed per gallon) when the rest of us still pay?

Free EV charging does nothing to help the homeless, the opioid epidemic or drug related shootings that happen weekly now.
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Are you more concerned about the homeless, the opioid epidemic, and drug related shootings - or that you aren't getting free fuel? Just curious.
 
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compu_85 said:
In Virginia anyway, the EV tax we pay ($64) works out almost exactly the same $$ in diesel fuel tax if I drove my SDL 7500 miles @ 22 mpg.



One thing to keep in mind: A car purchase is a percentage of a person's cost of living. The cost of living isn't the same everywhere, but the cost of a specific model vehicle is basically the same no matter where you live. So a $40,000 used Tesla might be a big chunk of change to someone in rural MI where their house is worth $85,000, but in Northern VA where a house the same size costs almost $400,000, that $40,000 Tesla isn't as large of a relative expense.

-J
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Frankly, the higher housing cost squeeze out money for other purchases. Including for new car purchases.
Also, I have not seen a $40K used Tesla, more like 60K. But I am in San Diego, where I wish I could still buy a $400K house.
 
El Dobro

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john.jackson9213 said:
Frankly, the higher housing cost squeeze out money for other purchases. Including for new car purchases.
Also, I have not seen a $40K used Tesla, more like 60K. But I am in San Diego, where I wish I could still buy a $400K house.
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$39,000 and up out here.
 
VeeDubTDI

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john.jackson9213 said:
Frankly, the higher housing cost squeeze out money for other purchases. Including for new car purchases.
Also, I have not seen a $40K used Tesla, more like 60K. But I am in San Diego, where I wish I could still buy a $400K house.
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El Dobro said:
$39,000 and up out here.
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The cheapest on Tesla's site right now is $44,000 for a well-optioned 2014 S60 in San Francisco. https://www.tesla.com/used/5YJSA1S14EFP33128

Cheaper examples can be found on cars.com and autotrader.com, but they won't have the same warranty or reconditioning that Tesla offers on their used cars.
 
oilhammer

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In the day of the internet, car prices are no longer as regional as they perhaps once were, simply because most people know better. You can always buy a car and have it transported to your location. Cannot transport real estate.

But it does not stop sellers from trying, as well as exploiting the few that do not know any better. And within certain situations and certain models, the popularity of things can dictate more of a demand in certain areas. Which is why big nationwide new and used car dealer conglomerates are constantly moving cars around the country. Which is just an organized way of doing something in bulk that any individual buyer could do for themselves, if they wanted to.

Of course this means you take the liability and responsibility to do so, and you sometimes get shafted. Boss runs a brokerage (a little one) out of our shop here, we are always getting cars shipped in from all over. Despite repeated burns, though, boss cannot grasp the reason why salt belt vehicles are worth less. His latest rust can is a newer (previous gen) F150 that has nice rust all along its rockers, augmented by its white paint. :rolleyes:

I know there is an outfit at the local Manheim auction that buys up Subarus here and brings them up to the Pacific Northwest and places like Colorado and Wyoming where they are much more popular.
 
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VeeDubTDI said:
The cheapest on Tesla's site right now is $44,000 for a well-optioned 2014 S60 in San Francisco. https://www.tesla.com/used/5YJSA1S14EFP33128
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$44K for an EV with 72,000 miles. Great car, but more mileage I'd be comfortable with.



Doesn't it still cost ~$20K to replace the battery? I get that you wouldn't be faced with that expense right away, but I'd rather spend $10K more for a very low mileage used Model S.
 
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Oilerlord said:
Doesn't it still cost ~$20K to replace the battery? I get that you wouldn't be faced with that expense right away, but I'd rather spend $10K more for a very low mileage used Model S.
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The main battery is the least of my concerns for upcoming items that might need to be replaced. Off the top of my head here's my list...

- Suspension ~$5k?
- HV => 12v ~$1k?
- On-board charger ~$2k?

Tesla owners are pretty vocal on the forums. Main battery replacements are extremely rare. By far the most common premature failure is the 12v battery; I've heard this issue has been fixed in the new 'face-lift' models. There have been some suspension issues and a couple HV converter problems. Early drive units apparently didn't get enough grease and had a 'failure' (you could hear them... not sure I define that as 'failed') rate near 100% but those were all replaced under warranty and the new units appear to be doing well.

I think the battery can last ~20 years and 500k miles with >70% left easily... the rest of the car I'm not so sure about.
 
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nwdiver said:
I think the battery can last ~20 years and 500k miles with >70% left easily... the rest of the car I'm not so sure about.
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That gives me some comfort with my B250e. It has a Tesla 36 kWh battery limited to 28 kWh usable. No doubt I'll have a lot more charging cycles on my battery than you will with your Model S, but do you think my battery would also have the capability to go ~200K miles with only ~20% fade?
 
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nwdiver

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Oilerlord said:
That gives me some comfort with my B250e. It has a Tesla 36 kWh battery limited to 28 kWh usable. No doubt I'll have a lot more charging cycles on my battery than you will with your Model S, but do you think my battery would also have the capability to go ~200K miles with only ~20% fade?
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Depends on your depth of discharge. If you're bouncing between 70% and 90% it should last a long... looong time. If you look at the cycle life analysis of the NCA chemistry Tesla uses they should be good for at least 500 cycles. But that's ~90% to 10%. Deep discharges wear down a battery significantly more than shallow cycles. You should easily be able to get 2000 cycles with shallower cycles (a cycle still defined by 90%-10%) and this is typically to ~30% degradation. The battery will still function.

My Tesla has 117k miles on the battery after ~4.5 years. Still getting 234 miles on 100% charge and that number hasn't changed in a year. I had some degradation in the first couple years but it's slowed a lot since then.
 
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Rob Mayercik

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nwdiver said:
By far the most common premature failure is the 12v battery
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Stupid question - what do they need a 12V battery for? Can't they just run a DCDC converter off the HV battery and supplement it with solar cells in the hood/roof/trunklid?
 
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nwdiver

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Rob Mayercik said:
Stupid question - what do they need a 12V battery for? Can't they just run a DCDC converter off the HV battery and supplement it with solar cells in the hood/roof/trunklid?
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It powers all the auxiliary stuff and closes the main battery relay to power the car. There's a DC-DC converter but it needs a buffer. That converter is one of the design flaws in the car. It's unable to keep a float on the battery... so the 12v gets cycled ~5x per day. Needless to say the 12v doesn't last long with that kind of treatment. I'm on my 3rd :( But; Tesla is learning. The new cars don't have this problem. I think the 12v battery dying is still the #1 reason Tesla owners have been stranded. If you don't have 12v to close the main battery relay you obviously don't have any power.... Fortunately the terminals are easy to access so it's not hard to get a 'jump start' :D

turbocharged798 said:
If I didn't drive my TDI it would last a long time too.
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Still driving the car... just 30 miles between charges (a typical commute) instead of 100 miles between charges. Charging early and often greatly extends the life of any battery.
 
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VeeDubTDI

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Oilerlord said:
$44K for an EV with 72,000 miles. Great car, but more mileage I'd be comfortable with.

Doesn't it still cost ~$20K to replace the battery? I get that you wouldn't be faced with that expense right away, but I'd rather spend $10K more for a very low mileage used Model S.
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There is a wide range of vehicles available. That one is more expensive for the mileage because it's very well-optioned.

For $1,700 more, you can get a 2013 with 28,000 miles and fewer options. https://www.tesla.com/used/5YJSA1CG7DFP22562

Go to www.teslainventory.com and sort by price.
 
bhtooefr

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Also, I only know of one car that doesn't have a 12 volt lead acid battery for 12 volt loads, and it instead has a 12 volt segment of the Li-ion pack for those loads - the Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid.

Having a dedicated 12 volt battery removes a lot of demand from the inverter, as it effectively buffers power to take demand spikes. And, also, lead acid 12 volt batteries work to lower temperatures, so you can use the 12 volt battery to get the contactor closed, then use grid AC power to condition the battery and get the car working in extreme cold. Can't do that if you've only got Li-ion.
 
compu_85

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It's also a safety feature. The 12v battery powers the computers, which run the high voltage relays. When you open the door the body computer tells the car to wake up, then the battery management system checks for any faults. If there are none, it turns on the high voltage contactor.

Without 12v power the high voltage power stays inside the enclosure of the traction battery.

-J
 
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nwdiver

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compu_85 said:
It's also a safety feature.
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Yep... the positive wire actually loops up right under the hood with a big yellow tag on it and a picture of wire cutters. In an accident first responders can cut that 12v wire to kill power from the main pack.
 
oilhammer

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compu_85 said:
It's also a safety feature. The 12v battery powers the computers, which run the high voltage relays. When you open the door the body computer tells the car to wake up, then the battery management system checks for any faults. If there are none, it turns on the high voltage contactor.

Without 12v power the high voltage power stays inside the enclosure of the traction battery.

-J
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That is almost verbatim what I learned from Toyota hybrid school. Of course, I wish I would have been able to show that Toyota kool-aid drinking instructor how STUPID it is to have to climb into a Prius' trunk and dig have the interior apart just to get at that 12v battery buried in the RR corner. :rolleyes:

Fortunately, we've found out you can just jump 12v to the main bus bar in the underhood junction box, and ground to the engine, and provide enough juice to get the electric-only trunk release to operate. Good thing, too, because we get dead-12v-battery Priuses towed in here a lot. Tow truck driver's won't try and "jump" them, because they have no idea how.
 
bhtooefr

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Gen 4 moved the battery up front, so you just open the door and grab the hood release, at least. And, the Prius C, IIRC, put it under the back seat next to the HV battery.
 
oilhammer

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Yes, I know. But those are not yet being towed in weekly. Although I have already had a C with a locked up engine. You want to talk about some faults in the hybrid system, LOL. That thing did not know what the eff was up with that!

It actually took me a little bit to figure it out, because it isn't like a normal locked up engine where you at least get a clue as to the nature of the problem with the starter engages and just clunks. This thing made no noise other than a slight whine for about a half second, then the triangle of death came on. Seems there is no DTC for "engine will not turn". Finally when I realized the main battery was OK, but unable to turn the engine, I put a wrench on the crankshaft... and it would not turn. I was able to turn it the other way about a half turn, and then it stopped. Something broke in the engine, but there were no holes in the block and the oil was full.

Did not get to fix it, though. They towed it away. I actually tried to buy it!
 
El Dobro

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oilhammer said:
That is almost verbatim what I learned from Toyota hybrid school. Of course, I wish I would have been able to show that Toyota kool-aid drinking instructor how STUPID it is to have to climb into a Prius' trunk and dig have the interior apart just to get at that 12v battery buried in the RR corner. :rolleyes:
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Yep, I found that out when I hooked up an inverter to one. Luckily, the Volt has little covers you remove to access the 12V battery terminals.
 
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Rob Mayercik

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Thanks for the info.

I guess whoever picked the spot for the battery never had to jump-start a car. Sounds like a job for about 10 ft of 4-gauge wire, some terminals, and an Andersen connector to create a more acessible "tail"...
 
bhtooefr

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To be fair, they may well have deemed it unnecessary, given their experience with the first-gen Prius. (The pre-refresh generation in Japan actually had a system to charge the NiMH battery off of 12 volt, which no later generation has.)
 
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^ That is amazing. In another two years it will have paid for itself in fuel and maintenance savings. Those $40k used models are starting to look pretty darn good.
 
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