Possible blown head gasket

So does anyone now what kind of uphill battle I'm going to be in with VW in regards to a blown head gasket due to intercooler icing? Hopefully its just a head gasket and not a cracked block.

http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy25/Cobrargc/IMG_1745_zpsa9283a2a.jpg

I've got 11K miles on my '13. An earlier thread mentions that I started my diesel after it had sat overnight in the garage following a long trip in cold weather. It turned over very slowly and at first I thought I might have left something on and ran the battery dead.

I checked the oil immediately after I was tipped off about the icing from another user on this forum. The oil looked fine after the initial start. Today I drove it for 5 miles to see if would run OK. It ran fine. I drove it long enough to get the engine up to temp and the cooling system under pressure. The photo shows what the dipstick looked like after the I allowed the engine to cool down.

no worries

I cannot imaging that you will have any issues w VW about this. You are waaaaaay within the warranty

Some "milkshake" is not out of the ordinary on a dipstick on a lightly driven car. There are a couple of coolant passages close to oil galleries in your engine, but none that would likely be affected by water intrusion. More likely would be to bend a rod.

5 miles is also not enough to boil off condensed water like that.

Take the car for a long highway drive and then recheck the dipstick. You will find that the condensation has either gone (no issue) or that it has stayed (leaking HG).

My money is on it just being normal condensation.

VW just told me the engine is fine and there isn't any water in the crankcase. They also told me that the creamy stuff on the dipstick is condensation, but I am not buying that. My garage is 60 degrees. This is a typical summer time low when a vehicle is outside. It's not like I started it up at -5 degrees and took it for a short drive. The engine was at 60 degrees to start with and ran for 45 minutes.

They are going to install the intercooler upgrade on Wednesday.

There was no mention of them changing the oil. This is good because I plan to pull a sample and send it off for analysis. I also want to have a reputable third party check the cooling system for a leaks. If there's any substantial glycol found in the oil sample, I will get VOA involved.

I'm curious as to their explanation for the hard start. Do they believe it in fact was a deicing issue or are they just doing it because I threw down a printed copy of the "intercooler icing" thread I'd printed? I have a lot of questions to ask them when I pick the car up.

Sounds like you have your panties twisted.

Intercooler iceing has nothing to do with moisture in the oil. In winter, the 60 degree garage might setting you up for intercooler iceing. What happens is because the engine is above freezing and then you go out side were it is freezing, you get condensation from the warm moist air that is in your intake tract. Might explain the milky oil, as well.

Do you drive a lot of very short trips? Moisture in the oil may be be because of that. The slow start may have been related to intercooler iceing, so the TSB might fix that.

Unless they can duplicate it, don't expect them to understand the slow start issue. Wouldn't hurt to stop expecting to find a bad guy at your dealer and just work with them.

Windex said:

My money is on it just being normal condensation.

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Sorry OP but I gotta agree.

On the other hand, oil analysis looking specifically for coolant as opposed to simple water is a reasonable next step if you really want to dig in.

Yes I do kind of have my panties in a twist. I think most people would under the circumstances.

Is it safe to say the no start or no crank was due to the icing? If so, the water that entered the cylinders caused a hydrolock condition that prevented the engine from turning over correct? Where would this melted water have gone? The exhaust valves don't open until after TDC. A cranking engine does not have the ability to compress water.

I'm not as concerned with simple moisture in the oil. What concerns me is the forced engine start damaging the head gasket and allowing the coolant a direct path into the crankcase.

This vehicle is used only for vacations and trips out of town. I've never used it for trips to and from work or the store. The dealership said I have about 1000 miles on the September '14 oil change they did. Again, I checked the dipstick immediately following the hard start. It was clean. The contamination on the dipstick was after my first drive with it. I think the no start-hard start combined with the contamination on the dipstick was a major red flag for me.

Would anything other than an icing hydrolock condition have caused the engine not to turn over? I assume the dealership would have load tested the battery to see if it was good. The car does a fair amount of sitting and this isn't good for batteries.

Thanks for all the help. I appreciate it.

Why do you keep pointing to a head gasket??? That is probably not at all a possibility.

The oil itself looks fine, it looks like a little condensation mixed with some residual oil at the top of the stick? Nothing to be overly alarmed about IMO. Also, a head gasket would/should have affected the oil in the pan, which is clearly shown to be clean....

Yes! Definitely get the oil tested on the next oil change:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

In the meantime keep a close eye on the oil.

Windex said:

Some "milkshake" is not out of the ordinary on a dipstick on a lightly driven car. There are a couple of coolant passages close to oil galleries in your engine, but none that would likely be affected by water intrusion. More likely would be to bend a rod.

5 miles is also not enough to boil off condensed water like that.

Take the car for a long highway drive and then recheck the dipstick. You will find that the condensation has either gone (no issue) or that it has stayed (leaking HG).

My money is on it just being normal condensation.

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I have to agree with this ^^^. My mk3 used to do this for the first 50k when it was new, Car still running today with 189k on the clock and the only change to motor was a reman starter.

These vehicles are not an optimal solution for short trips.

1000mi since September - if accurate, do yourself a favor - drive the car more, or trade it in for a camry - gas or hybrid.

Short trips create condensation in internal combustion vehicles - no two ways about it.

<-source - career car and heavy truck/diesel mechanic

As above, water ingestion does not force anything into the crankcase - that doesn't happen. Hard to believe you're not concerned with condensation in the oil when that's the picture you linked.

Has the coolant level gone down at all?

I purposely never get a job too close to where I live. Right now it is pretty short at 17 miles but it is freeway miles and the engine is fully warm when I make the turn onto the south interstate which is the last 12 miles.

Yes 1000 miles since September buy a Leaf.

I am putting on about 12,000 miles a year and I am 268,500 miles

In case you missed it he did say that the car was only used for long trips...

Cobrargc said:

Yes I do kind of have my panties in a twist. I think most people would under the circumstances.

Is it safe to say the no start or no crank was due to the icing? If so, the water that entered the cylinders caused a hydrolock condition that prevented the engine from turning over correct? Where would this melted water have gone? The exhaust valves don't open until after TDC. A cranking engine does not have the ability to compress water.

I'm not as concerned with simple moisture in the oil. What concerns me is the forced engine start damaging the head gasket and allowing the coolant a direct path into the crankcase.

This vehicle is used only for vacations and trips out of town. I've never used it for trips to and from work or the store. The dealership said I have about 1000 miles on the September '14 oil change they did. Again, I checked the dipstick immediately following the hard start. It was clean. The contamination on the dipstick was after my first drive with it. I think the no start-hard start combined with the contamination on the dipstick was a major red flag for me.

Would anything other than an icing hydrolock condition have caused the engine not to turn over? I assume the dealership would have load tested the battery to see if it was good. The car does a fair amount of sitting and this isn't good for batteries.

Thanks for all the help. I appreciate it.

Click to expand...

1000 miles since September? Wrong car for the application.

Cobrargc said:

They also told me that the creamy stuff on the dipstick is condensation, but I am not buying that.

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All cars are subject to "mayonnaise" in the oil jacket due to condensation.

Yep. Simple chemistry. Hydrocarbons (HC) burn with Oxygen (O2) to create Carbon Monoxide (CO), Carbon Dioxide (CO2), and lots and lots of Water (H2O).

There are of course other trace elements, and there is always the Nitrogen part, but the above illustrates the basics of where the water comes from.

If one thinks about it - we know that TDIs (and every other ICE) create blowby gasses - that's why they have Crankcase vent systems. Per Oilhammer's post, we know that water vapour is part of those crankcase gasses.

60 degree garage or no, the moment you start driving outside, the block is cooled by the outside air, and voila - condensation like on the outside of a cold glass of beer in the summer - unless your part of the Midwest is somehow 60 degrees outside as well.

Oil testing is not that expensive- Blackstone charges $25, a local shop will be similar in price. If it gives you peace of mind, then do it!