Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

Found this:

http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/global/downloads/03.pdf

Note the table on page 11. Tier II bin 9 is listed as being equivalent to California LEV I. The NOx limit for these standards is 0.2 grams per mile. Actual test emissions for the ALH engine are about 0.5 grams per mile (versus the 1.0 gram per mile limit for Tier I diesel cars). Since in California LEV I becomes mandatory in 2004, the ALH engine needs to be replaced before then if VW is to sell TDI engines in California. Theoretically, the new 100hp pump injector engine which supposedly meets Tier II bin 9 will meet California LEV I as well.

Note also that Tier II bins 9 and 10 will be deleted after 2006. Also, California cars must meet LEV II after 2006. So meeting Tier II bin 9 / California LEV I won't be enough after 2006. Fortunately, 15ppm diesel fuel becomes universal in the US at that time. Will that be enough to allow car diesel engines to limit NOx emissions to 0.05 grams per mile (Tier II bin 5 / California LEV II)?

[ January 30, 2003, 21:24: Message edited by: tjl ]

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

90 percent reduction? I doubt if that's achievable in that timeframe (if ever).

Back-of-notepad rough calculations suggest that what we have now is about 300ppm NOx in the exhaust, and I seem to recall Joe Rappa measuring numbers in that range. 30ppm NOx is off the bottom of any scale of engine-out NOx emissions from any diesel engine test result I've ever seen. Usually 100 - 150ppm NOx roughly corresponds to the point where the soot emissions start going way, way up, and you can't have that, either.

I haven't heard of any exhaust after-treatment for NOx in lean-burn environments that are 90% effective, either.

When are the bureaucrats going to implement rules based on actual real-world testing of the best available demonstrated technology, to ensure that what they're prescribing is actually achievable? Not in this lifetime, it seems.

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

PM is what will kill TDi's in CA in 2004.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000372

The catch is to let Federal emission cars in there is a offsetting procedure, one that doesn't allow for particulate matter.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/levii01/T1.pdf

"Section V OFFSETTING PROCEDURES
A. Emissions offsetting shall be limited as follows:
5. By pollutant. Hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) are the only pollutants that may be offset for passenger cars."
"Evaporative hydrocarbons and particulates are not eligible for offsets."

Particulate Matter will not be allowed to vary. PM still has to meet the new LEV-II standard of 0.010. Something the current TDi's cannot do.
There's always a catch 22 somewhere, in your favour or not. This time, not!

[ February 02, 2003, 21:38: Message edited by: AutoDiesel ]

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

California has had an unrealistic anti-diesel stance for a long time. An EPA study linking PMs to cancer has not helped. The sad part is that any vehicle over 8500 lbs. is exempt from Tier II standards. I fully expect to see a lot more SUVs upping their weight to 8500 lbs. get through the loophole. Welcome back, Ford "Earth Killer" Excursion. Now, which vehicle do you think pollutes more, a 10mpg SUV, or a 50mpg TDI ? California continues to engineer classic liberal, overly-legislated debacles. They engineered their own energy crisis by legislating energy prices, discouraging energy producers from building any new plants in CA, since they could barely make profits (if they were very, very shrewd) on existing plants. They are engineering their own environmental and world political disaster by encouraging manufacturers to make bigger SUVs and by killing the diesel.

The highway to hell is paved with good intentions. California sure has a lot of highways.

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

I'll throw out another cynical prediction : by the time ULSD arrives, allowing diesels to meet 2004 CARB Tier II requirements, California will come up with yet another way to keep diesels off the marker and make SUVs bigger.

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

I'd be laughing with you, SwimmerDave, if it wasn't so sad. I'm not all sure that ULSD by itself will get the PM down to 0.01 g/m- some tests using 3 ppm ULSD fuel couldn't get the PM below 0.02 g/m. The technology needed to get diesels to LEV II is daunting- as efforts to control reduce NOx end up increasing HC and PM, and vice versa.

You'd think that CARB would mandate ULSD in 2K4, rather than waiting to 2K6 to help enable the technology changes, but -nooooo-.

I think the bottom line is that a number of small engine manufacturers- VW among them, will simply decide that the economics don't work for the engineering involved. Without the fuel infrastructure, and CARB's intransigence that PM emissions can't be offset in an overall fleet rating (as can NOx or CO), diesels in CA in vehicles under 8,500 pounds will become a thing of the past. Much easier to focus on selling small turbocharged gas/hybrid engines that can easily meet LEV II.

More's the pity. So I plan on taking real good care of my 2k2 NB... it's probably the last new small engine diesel vehicle I'll be able to buy in this state for a very long time.

-Tapokata

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

Maybe a bit off-topiv, but...

Wasn't VW working on a Golf diesel/electric hybrid many years ago? I think it would have been the A2 chassis. Maybe by reducing the size/load of the diesel and mating it to an electric motor, along with the use of regenerative braking, we could see diesel cars that meet the near-future Tier II standards.

I know, I know... a hybrid system would cost more to produce and would be more mechanically complex... but I bet it could blow away the Honda and Toyota hybrids as far as fuel economy! 100mpg? I don't see a problem reaching that. Toyota already uses some tiny diesels in tiny cars overseas that get over 100mpg on the highway.

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

Originally posted by GoFaster:
[QB]90 percent reduction? I doubt if that's achievable in that timeframe (if ever).

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, Ford has already done it with their new urea aftertreatment system. But it won't work until ULSD is available everywhere.

http://www.drivingtoday.com/carstuff/features/archive/diesel/

"One example of the diesel future is a special Ford Focus recently unveiled by Ford Motor Company. The new diesel-powered research vehicle is said to meet California's Ultra Low Emission Vehicle II (ULEV II) standards. The vehicle uses co-fueling of diesel and urea, an ammonia-based compound, to reduce nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions to levels previously not achieved with diesel technology.

While the combustion within a diesel engine might never be as clean as that in an internal combustion engine burning, say, compressed natural gas, catalysts and filters can make the exhaust emissions virtually as pure. The keys to the ULEV II Diesel Focus's low emissions are a very efficient NOx reduction catalyst and a soot-trapping particulate filter. The catalyst uses a water solution of urea sprayed on the catalyst to remove NOx from the exhaust. To ensure that urea is always added to the vehicle, a process called co-fueling is employed. Co-fueling fills the diesel and urea tanks at the same time, so the operation is seamless for the customer.

Along with the NOx catalyst, a particulate filter is used to trap carbon particles. The ULEV II Diesel Focus uses advanced filter technology to provide a diesel vehicle that has no smoke and no odor. The 2007 ULEV II standards for both NOx and particulates, which the Ford Focus will meet, are nearly 90 percent lower than today's standards.

"This prototype vehicle is an example of what could be done to make future diesels fully comparable to gasoline vehicles in emission control, with lower CO2 emissions and excellent fuel economy," said Dick Baker, corporate technical specialist for Ford's Advanced Diesel Systems group."

When is VW going to step up and show us what they have?

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

Co-fueling with urea? Yeah, perhaps the technology works, but retrofitting every diesel filling station to have an extra nozzle coming from an extra tank is not going to happen, and even if it does, what do you do about all the existing diesel vehicles that don't require and cannot accept the second nozzle? (The article talked about having a dual filling nozzle, presumably so that people can't escape from filling that extra urea tank.)

I wonder what the freezing temperature of the water/urea solution is ... Doesn't sound like a solution that's suitable for northern winters ...

I friggin hate it when legislators and bureaucrats write something into law that cannot be done in reality (and this is a situation I'm dealing with at work right now on a different issue ... frustrating as hell.)

Re: Vehicle Emission Standards Around the Globe (and California emission limits wrt TDIs)

Heh, the technology is there.
How it gets done will be the prediction of the future.

If hybrids have batteries, then I guess die-hard diesel fans won't mind having to add urea!

The problem is most people don't want to screw with keeping their car running one way or the other. They just wan't to fill the tank and go.

So it does present problems.