our ibiza on the dyno 232bhp 330 lbs.ft on a vb

K.I.T.T.

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No offence, but 230+ bhp on PD150 injectors and VNT17 sounds rather optimistic :)

What injection duration are you running?

Ash
 

leon10tagg

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A friend of mines pd100 golf ran 231chp and 420lbsft running arl injectors a cr1756 hybrid, fmic, millteek down pipe and exhaust.......on a hub dyno......:confused:
 

devonutopia

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Hopefully it is a stage 2 VB hybrid, not a stock PD150 turbo. :) Those PD150s stock only go to around 205hp at most (crank HP)
 

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UK dyno, enough said :rolleyes:
Are all UK dyno's wrong?

I agree that a standard vb won't do this level of power but a hybrid should on a 'hub dyno'......
 

K.I.T.T.

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UK dyno, enough said :rolleyes:
:D

Are all UK dyno's wrong?

I agree that a standard vb won't do this level of power but a hybrid should on a 'hub dyno'......
Quite a few of the UK dynos (AMD's come to mind) are...optimistic, to put it lightly.

Me, Borachris and aRd had a discussion about this a few months ago and VNT17 based hybrids don't seem to be good for much more than 210bhp, as shown in last years UK TDI Club RR day.

ARL injectors can reliably inject a maximum of "only" ~80mg/stroke, ie ~215bhp.

This needs about 1.8 bar / 26 psi to burn clean...not sure a standard 1749VB would be too happy putting out 1.8 bar at 4000 RPM.

Ash :)
 

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:D


Quite a few of the UK dynos (AMD's come to mind) are...optimistic, to put it lightly.

Me, Borachris and aRd had a discussion about this a few months ago and VNT17 based hybrids don't seem to be good for much more than 210bhp, as shown in last years UK TDI Club RR day.

ARL injectors can reliably inject a maximum of "only" ~80mg/stroke, ie ~215bhp.

This needs about 1.8 bar / 26 psi to burn clean...not sure a standard 1749VB would be too happy putting out 1.8 bar at 4000 RPM.

Ash :)
As I said hybrid......

Also my own ALH is running 219chp and 351lbsft......checked on two different tuning shop dyno's.......are they all wrong?
 

K.I.T.T.

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I know you said hybrid, but it appears the Ibiza the OP is talking about is using a stock VB.

1756 hybrid may be good for about 210 - 215bhp reliably, after that EGTs will get a bit toasty...

Wouldn't say your BHP is "wrong" per se. There are other factors as well. You could get a couple more horses if you don't mind a bit of smoke in higher RPMs, but that's about the limit of the 1756 hybrids.

The GTB1756VKs are less restrictive (lower EGTs) than the hybrids, and those too top out at ~215bhp.

Ash :)
 

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I know you said hybrid, but it appears the Ibiza the OP is talking about is using a stock VB.

1756 hybrid may be good for about 210 - 215bhp reliably, after that EGTs will get a bit toasty...

Wouldn't say your BHP is "wrong" per se. There are other factors as well. You could get a couple more horses if you don't mind a bit of smoke in higher RPMs, but that's about the limit of the 1756 hybrids.

The GTB1756VKs are less restrictive (lower EGTs) than the hybrids, and those too top out at ~215bhp.

Ash :)
What you are describing is a motor without head or cam work as once they are added to the mix more power is achievable even with a 1756.....also if 215 is the max there must be a lot of dyno's in the UK and Europe that are let's say wrong?
 

K.I.T.T.

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What you are describing is a motor without head or cam work as once they are added to the mix more power is achievable even with a 1756
Yes, I am talking about a stock PD motor with PD150 injectors. No one said anything about ported head or cams.

.....also if 215 is the max there must be a lot of dyno's in the UK and Europe that are let's say wrong?
I'm talking about the maximum fuel PD150 injectors can reliably and safely deliver, not the maximum you can get out of the engine.

Add a race cam, you can get another 10 or so bhp out of the injectors. Sure, you can get more fuel without cams if you have >40° of injection, but that's not good for the engine.

Also, to cleanly burn 215bhp, you'd need ~1.8bar at 4000 RPM, which is pretty much the limit of a hybrid turbo.

In order to make more power than a reliable ~215bhp on a PD engine you need:

(a) Larger injectors / nozzles such as R783s (or a race cam...)

and

(b) Something bigger than a VNT17 hybrid.

Finally, I don't know how much more restrictive the VE heads are compared to the PD heads. Maybe porting would help a bit on the rotary heads, but the hybrid would still "only" flow around 1.8 bar safely. To burn more than 215bhp on a VE, you'd still need something bigger than a hybrid.

< -------------------------------------------------------- >


This was (248bhp) the power allegedly put out by a hybrid on a PD150 with stock injectors on AMD's rollers.

There was also a PD130/150 knocking about, running stock injectors and some "top secret" turbo that was allegedly putting out 250bhp...again on AMD's rollers (notice a pattern here)

Yet, the most a hybrid based PD130 put out at last year's RR day was Stu Fenwick's Golf running about 212bhp IIRC...

The only cars that were more powerful had R783s and 2260VKs.



Ash :)
 
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leon10tagg

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Ok so what does that prove for example if you go to another dyno the following week it could read higher or lower......

Regards the updated cam and head......more air with previously unburn't fuel equals more HP......
 

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we didnt test it at AMD yesterday, we used tune 4 performence's new rollers, we ran a few other projects aswell, audi a4 asz with 2260 which made 238bhp, audi tt BAM with gt2871r which made 349bhp and my alh which made 155bhp, i have rolling roaded it 4 times this year when ever i have the chance to try other rollers, they have all been between 153bhp and and 164bhp which was at amd, also we have managed 250+ on stock injectors
 

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we didnt test it at AMD yesterday, we used tune 4 performence's new rollers, we ran a few other projects aswell, audi a4 asz with 2260 which made 238bhp, audi tt BAM with gt2871r which made 349bhp and my alh which made 155bhp, i have rolling roaded it 4 times this year when ever i have the chance to try other rollers, they have all been between 153bhp and and 164bhp which was at amd, also we have managed 250+ on stock injectors
What was the whp numbers without correction factor?
 

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ARL injectors can reliably inject a maximum of "only" ~80mg/stroke, ie ~215bhp.

Ash :)
Yes, but only in theory.

We have tested and tried out different settings in mapping with several TDI engines, ARL, ASZ, ASZ with Hybrid turbo and BUK ( Seat Ibiza Cupra TDI)
and in fact NONE of them came over 190bhp even with very high advanced SOI and max. safe duration. They all have PD550 injectors.
In timed runs, the cars didnt get any faster, no matter if there where 70+ or 80mg injected quantity....only thing what happened was raising EGT in @longer WOT periods, so it only adds thermal stress to the engine but no real life performance gains....

Regards, Alex
 
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tdichris

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What was the whp numbers without correction factor?
I will pop in to the rolling road today and ask

Bobby- I dont map the cars, and its all very secret he wont let any info
Tickets are booked for Santa pod now, I think ill run my alh aswell
 

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So what are we talking here whp or chp?

Yes, but only in theory.
We have tested and tried out different settings in mapping with several TDI engines, ARL, ASZ, ASZ with Hybrid turbo and BUK ( Seat Ibiza Cupra TDI)
and in fact NONE of them came over 190bhp even with very high advanced SOI and max. safe duration. They all have PD550 injectors.
In timed runs, the cars didnt get any faster, no matter if there where 70+ or 80mg injected quantity....only thing what happened was raising EGT in @longer WOT periods, so it only adds thermal stress to the engine but no real life performance gains....
Regards, Alex
 

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Brake horse powers at the crank.

Imo it seems very low as it would equate to about 170whp?

Also if we are saying that these motors are not making what was previously possible with pd150 injestors then how can r783's claim around 300, which would be on the same dyno's with their over optimistic correction factors?
 

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So what's a pd capable of with r783's, a big valve head, fast road cam, fmic,egr delete, big bore down pipe and exhaust.....the limitation being the turbo a cr1756......I reckon about 240+??
 

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Alex dont you trust me lol
My 304bhp (255whp) run was done on r783's, but i dare not use that map everyday.
Duration was 40 plus iirc
 

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Ok back to my original question.....are all UK including Northern Ireland dyno's wrong??
 

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So what's a pd capable of with r783's, a big valve head, fast road cam, fmic,egr delete, big bore down pipe and exhaust.....the limitation being the turbo a cr1756......I reckon about 240+??
If this CR1756 comes with gt17 turbine, it wont be capable of 240bhp....
 

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There is a pretty straightforward way to determine what a certain turbo will support at its limiting case power-wise if you have a compressor map and know the BSFC at maximum power, independent of boost pressure.

A GT1749VB has a trim of ~54 based on this. The maps I have closest to this spec have absolute maximum airflow at 20 lb/min, or 0.151 kg/s. If one assumes the limiting case of a stoichiometric air-fuel ratio (for Diesel, about 14.6:1), the amount of fuel that would be burned is in the order of 0.01036 kg/s (69 mg/stroke at 4500 RPM). A chipped TDI engine has a BSFC of about 240 g/kWh (although this will not be achieved with an engine running at a smoky lambda 1 but we're talking about the blue-sky idealized limiting case here). Nevertheless, by the magic of math, this will correspond to 155 kW or 208 BHP at the crank. I would be interested to know what is the fuel mg/stroke (although the ECU will report a maximum of 51 mg/stroke) to validate my calculations, but nevertheless I take very dimly at any claims that a 49VB-turboed engine will do much more than 200 real, physics-based BHP.

Does that answer your question, Leon? ;)
 

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Thank you for chiming in Dave!

Make the diagnostics show higher than stock injection quantity is no problem.
Injecting 80mg is no problem, BUT: as written above this is in correlation with inefficient duration so that those 80mg are not giving 1:1 more power values like they could ( with bigger nozzles per example)
Above stated ~190hp limit is with about 67-68mg/stroke, so it comes very close to what Dave (TDIMeister) stated above.
Bigger turbine, different cam, higher flowing head and so on give a little help to add a few more hp but wont result in miracle power gains....

Regards, Alex
 

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The turbo is a cr1756.....56 compressor with the turbine wheel clipped to increase flow on the turbine side......it is supposed to be good for 240chp with the correct supporting mods......I say let's see what the dyno say's.......it's like this i am confused at the claims and counter claims of the maximum power available from different mod's.......regards the theory are you saying it's pointless going lower than lambda afr on a diesel?

Forgot to say the motor will be fitted with r783's.
 
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majesty78

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Clipping a turbine is no good idea, it raises EGT and EMP by lowering "drive" of turbine. ( Dont know how to explain exactly in english....)

Low Lambda on a Diesel also decreases efficiency, ideal Lambda is around 1.2-1.25 (17.64-18.375:1 AGR)

Regards, Alex
 
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