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TDI Conversions Discussions on converting non TDIs into TDIS. More general items can be answered better in other sections. This is ideal for issues that don't have an overlap and are very special to swaping engines.

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Old April 5th, 2020, 20:37   #46
cj.surr
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Sounds about right, I suppose. I may still be interested. I love the tdi motor but it just doesn't want to seem to work in this car. And I would much rather spend the summer road tripping and camping than working more on the car.
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Old April 5th, 2020, 21:46   #47
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Well, you're welcome to it. I'd recommend a trailer over a tow dolly if possible. The engine has an ancient timing belt, so that's the first thing you'd want to change. I think it's rated at 80 hp, so it's not that terrible power wise. The car body is basically beyond repair, but most of the parts are good.
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Old April 7th, 2020, 07:35   #48
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What do you guys think about trying a BHW (or other) engine with a balance shaft? I'm wondering if that would be a big help with the torsional vibes. It would be a pain to make new mounts, oil pan, wiring harness, but at least the trans should still bolt up.
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Old April 7th, 2020, 10:36   #49
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Interesting idea but unfortunately I doubt it would make much of a difference in terms of torsional vibration, in fact it could make it worse if anything since the BHW puts out quite a bit more power than the old AHU and its torque pulses would be significantly stronger. Balance shafts really are intended to mitigate reciprocating mass vibration (the heavier pistons due to larger displacement and oil cooling galleys necessitate the shafts for the BHW, relative to the lighter 1.9L pistons), not so much torsional vibration which is addressed instead by a DMF or a heavy SMF.

BHWs also are known for difficult vibration/resonance problems even in the stock longitudinal cars where it's installed, with all the factory's own attempts at mitigation (hydraulic mounts, etc). It has a tendency for bad torsional resonances in AWD/manual installations with SMFs especially, seems like prop shafts and differentials amplify it so it might be tough to deal with in your setup too. I have one now on the stand that I'm prepping to go into my Audi Allroad 6-speed this summer, but I'm going to be running all factory parts (stock European market DMF, etc) to keep the vibes down as much as I can. It'll be expensive, and I still expect to have to do some careful work with the mounts and exhaust to make it not annoying to drive and listen to. Without the factory-proven vehicle interface parts I think it would be even more of a challenge. Though on the other hand plenty of folks seem to run them in pickup truck conversions and not complain about vibes. They might just not care, though.

Another thing, if you want to keep balance shafts in a BHW rather than just convert to a regular oil pump, you have to spend almost 2 grand for the geared BSM setup to eliminate the guaranteed to fail chain drive system. Overall my seat of the pants guess is that with the BHW you'd do lot of work and end up spending thousands of dollars to not gain much against vibration and NVH.

That offer of a D24 would definitely solve the vibration problems, they are smooth runners, and good engines overall. I've had a few. But you might not like the power after running a chipped TDI in the same car, by comparison the D24 will be slower, heavier, etc. Fine around town but climbing long hills at highway speed with a loaded vehicle is a real challenge for them. Usually if they are running loud and smoky it's because the timing is set wrong, they're pretty refined and quiet and clean when they are set up right, but they are never fast. The turbo versions are much stronger runners so that could be an option.

One other idea you might think about if you wanted to bite the bullet on a completely different engine setup would be the 2.5L 5-cylinder TDI. They are starting to show up from Europe for pretty affordable prices now. Frans (dutch auto parts) could probably source a complete swap kit with harness, ecu, etc from an Audi or a Volvo V70 with the higher output setups that had 140hp from the factory. The back of the engine is the same as the old D24 so they would bolt up to an M46/M47 diesel bellhousing (or one of those attached to a T5) and could use off the shelf clutch parts. Would have to build a set of mounts and modify the pan but otherwise it would almost be a bolt in install in a 240, plenty of folks overseas have done it. With an extra cylinder, torsional vibes would be much improved or eliminated and you'd get a lot more power and torque out of the deal as well. The engines seem to be well thought of by the folks that have used them, no real problem areas and much more refined than the 4 cylinders.
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Last edited by d24tdi; April 7th, 2020 at 10:47.
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Old June 1st, 2020, 08:08   #50
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So this problem is actually mostly solved, after 3 years of chasing it down. I bought a BMW m21 diesel and was planning on swapping it into the volvo if the last few possibilities were eliminated and the vibrations were still there. The last thing on my list was changing out my polyurethane axle-trailing arm bushings with stock rubber. And it completely eliminated the full-chassis resonance I was experiencing from 1400-2100 RPM. There is still some vibration from the engine, but it is pretty manageable. I would say the total NVH in that range was reduced by 75%. It was pretty unexpected, as the bushings were in great shape, but I suppose that extra bit of damping from softer rubber was needed. I installed the poly bushings at the same time as doing my initial tdi + m47 swap 3 years ago.

Very glad that I don't have to swap in a 6cyl diesel, as I otherwise was very happy with the tdi. I think some better engine/trans mounts might be able to smooth out the remaining vibration but it's definitely tolerable as-is.
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Old June 1st, 2020, 11:10   #51
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Yeah, poly bushings don't really get along with Diesels.

I didn't read up the entire thread, but did you get to the bottom of the vibrations eating your flywheel(s)? I don't think this will be related to or fixed by swapping the bushings. Probably a misalignment somewhere.
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Old June 3rd, 2020, 13:00   #52
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Glad you got it to where it works. Whatever vibes are still left might not be that different from how these are in stock VW applications. Even there, vibration is always noticeable. The pendulum mounts of the Mk4 chassis cars do a great job suppressing it but the tripod setup of the old Mk3/B4 transmits plenty. Perfect control of NVH is a serious challenge with these engines no matter what they are in, so sounds like you got a pretty good outcome.

As was mentioned, still will be interesting to see how the flywheels do now, since the axle bushings probably were not the cause for that. But if you can run an SMF now that doesn't break while still keeping the vibes under control, maybe it doesn't matter. Do you have a SMF in it now?
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Old June 4th, 2020, 09:20   #53
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WOW! Glad you solved it. What a long battle its been. I would not have expected such a difference from those bushings.
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Old June 4th, 2020, 11:10   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d24tdi View Post
Glad you got it to where it works. Whatever vibes are still left might not be that different from how these are in stock VW applications. Even there, vibration is always noticeable. The pendulum mounts of the Mk4 chassis cars do a great job suppressing it but the tripod setup of the old Mk3/B4 transmits plenty. Perfect control of NVH is a serious challenge with these engines no matter what they are in, so sounds like you got a pretty good outcome.

As was mentioned, still will be interesting to see how the flywheels do now, since the axle bushings probably were not the cause for that. But if you can run an SMF now that doesn't break while still keeping the vibes under control, maybe it doesn't matter. Do you have a SMF in it now?
I agree that whatever vibrations remain might be natural. When I compare the hydraulic BMW M42 mounts I'm using to the stock mk3 mounts, I can see that there would be a significant difference in damping. The mk3 engine mounts are pretty hard to incorporate into the 240, but I may look into that- at least on the passenger side. Right now the only bothersome vibration is <1700 RPM in 5th (<60mph).

Interesting that you mention the pendulum mounts. I started doing a restoration/tdi swap on a Eurovan westy and noticed that those hanging mounts looked like great dampers and was wondering if I could use something like that in the volvo.

I'm currently running the SMF. Between the T5 transmission and W55, I've done about 30k failure-free miles on the SMF, so I think it's safe. I still can't say for sure what caused the DMFs to fail, but I don't plan on going back to them. They also introduce some backlash into the drivetrain that I find annoying. I think with some better attempts at damping, I will be able to get the vibrations completely under control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtpsd View Post
WOW! Glad you solved it. What a long battle its been. I would not have expected such a difference from those bushings.

Thanks to you two guys for sticking through this problem and giving me ideas.
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Old June 5th, 2020, 19:50   #55
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I tried replacing my passenger side engine mount (hydraulic bmw m42) with the larger mk3 hydraulic mount. I also replaced the T5 trans mount with the small mk3 hydraulic mount. Vibration was noticeably better, but not enough to make me want to modify my mounting structure to permanently fit them.

I'm wondering if also using the 3rd mk3 mount on the passenger side would really make the difference. That would require cutting up my subframe and welding in a tube to fit the mk3 mount. I'm not overly optimistic about it, so I'm not sure I want to go through the trouble.

I'm also looking into importing a set of B5 TDI engine mounts. Seems to be a familiar top and bottom stud design that would be easier to incorporate. Can't tell if they're the same as the gasoline B5 mounts.

Last edited by cj.surr; June 5th, 2020 at 20:24.
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Old June 6th, 2020, 09:25   #56
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I think you are right that it might not be worth reinventing whatever fabrication work you have in place now. Vibration and buzz are always there even in the stock Mk3/B4 cars. The same is mostly true for the B5. Mounting systems where the same mounts have to both support the weight of the engine and transmit torque for propulsion are challenging in terms of NVH control with a 4-cylinder engine. Pendulum mount systems have the advantage of being able to support the mass of the drivetrain with one set of mounts (which can be fairly soft), and then transmit drivetrain torque with a different and much firmer mount (the dogbone in most such setups). Sometimes, like in the case of the Mk4 VW design, the dogbone is even attached to a rubber isolated subframe as well, which gives a further layer of vibration control. But I think decoupling those mounting and torque forces is what allows the later transverse TDI cars to be so refined compared to the early ones. ALH and AHU engines themselves both vibrate approximately the same amount, but if you put your fingers on the steering wheel of an idling ALH car, you feel almost nothing. With the older chassis cars you feel plenty. Or as another comparison, the AHU TDI in my T4 Eurovan with the factory pendulum mount setup is a much smoother experience than the exact same type engine in a B4 Passat or A3 Jetta with the tripod mount.

Anyway all that to say if you've got the NVH at a tolerable level now with your setup, that's a pretty good victory.

The B5 gas and diesel mounts are externally the same and bolt up the same way, but are different, the gassers are solid and the diesels are hydraulic. They do make a considerable difference in those cars so it's possible some B5 diesel hydraulic mounts would be beneficial in your setup, though again if it's pretty good now you might be chasing diminishing returns since even with new good diesel hydraulic mounts B5's with 4cyl diesels are noted for NVH too. You wouldn't have to import the diesel mounts, they're available from all the usual sources stateside for a US spec 04-05 Passat TDI with BHW engine, though they are pricey, over $100 each.

Be interested to watch your T4 conversion, do you have a thread up for it?
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Old June 6th, 2020, 12:33   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d24tdi View Post
I think you are right that it might not be worth reinventing whatever fabrication work you have in place now. Vibration and buzz are always there even in the stock Mk3/B4 cars. The same is mostly true for the B5. Mounting systems where the same mounts have to both support the weight of the engine and transmit torque for propulsion are challenging in terms of NVH control with a 4-cylinder engine. Pendulum mount systems have the advantage of being able to support the mass of the drivetrain with one set of mounts (which can be fairly soft), and then transmit drivetrain torque with a different and much firmer mount (the dogbone in most such setups). Sometimes, like in the case of the Mk4 VW design, the dogbone is even attached to a rubber isolated subframe as well, which gives a further layer of vibration control. But I think decoupling those mounting and torque forces is what allows the later transverse TDI cars to be so refined compared to the early ones. ALH and AHU engines themselves both vibrate approximately the same amount, but if you put your fingers on the steering wheel of an idling ALH car, you feel almost nothing. With the older chassis cars you feel plenty. Or as another comparison, the AHU TDI in my T4 Eurovan with the factory pendulum mount setup is a much smoother experience than the exact same type engine in a B4 Passat or A3 Jetta with the tripod mount.

Anyway all that to say if you've got the NVH at a tolerable level now with your setup, that's a pretty good victory.

The B5 gas and diesel mounts are externally the same and bolt up the same way, but are different, the gassers are solid and the diesels are hydraulic. They do make a considerable difference in those cars so it's possible some B5 diesel hydraulic mounts would be beneficial in your setup, though again if it's pretty good now you might be chasing diminishing returns since even with new good diesel hydraulic mounts B5's with 4cyl diesels are noted for NVH too. You wouldn't have to import the diesel mounts, they're available from all the usual sources stateside for a US spec 04-05 Passat TDI with BHW engine, though they are pricey, over $100 each.

Be interested to watch your T4 conversion, do you have a thread up for it?
To put the vibrations in perspective, they are still much more severe than a mk3 TDI. Mostly now the only range that is annoying is below 1850rpm in 5th under load. That range can be avoided easily, which is why I said it's much more tolerable now. Before replacing the trailing arm bushings, the vibrations were more severe, and occurred up to 2150 rpm.

That being said, I am going to continue pursuing different mounting arrangements. I think the B5 engine mounts will be my first effort, since my setup is much more similar to a B5 than an A3. You are correct about the B5 mounts being expensive state-side (particularly the Left side) but there appear to be inexpensive Corteco and Febi options in Europe. Although it's hard to tell if they are the right ones. This website shows compatibility with several different part number suffixes.

https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/corteco-2102288.html

https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/feb...n-1872765.html

Maybe I could find a set of used BHW Passat mounts in the states to give them a try. I think I would just need to shorten my mount arms, if anything at all.

As far as the T4, we are currently still doing rust repair. It's getting a full restoration. I've got the AFN dipstick/pan and mount all set up on the tdi, but I haven't installed the engine yet. Still need to finish up the body work and paint. I'll probably wait until the project is complete before I make a thread.
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