Injection Pump problems

With the engine at warm idle, what are all the numbers in Measuring Blocks group 1?

Injection quantity at idle, and voltage of slide valve sensor, are the two things I'm mostly interested in.

Here's the story, back in October 2001 I got a DTC 1268 code (Quantity Adjuster - Upper Stop Spec) occured while coasting into a shopping mall. Took it to the dealer and everything checkout fine.

Yesterday while driving on the highway engine loses power, blinking glowplug light and check engine light comes on . Pulled out the VAGCOm and same error. There where also Quantity adjuster - Control difference and lower stop spec interrmintent codes aswell. Cleared the codes, re-started and drove home.

Also noticing the past few days that I had rough riding between 1800-2000 RPM I decided to clean my MAF with non-resisdue electonics cleaner and all seems great, smooth ride, no codes until 50kms on the highway. This time Quantity adjuster - Lower stop spec, Upper stop spec, engine dies pull over . Restart car, clear codes and have very erratic idling, then engine revs to 2400 RPM, I turn the car off, still running remove key Looking at the CCV pipe to the air intake I notice oil residue, was the engine runing on oil vapours?

I fear the worst that I need a need to have the N146 Quantity Adjuster on the pump rebuilt at www.rovandiesel.com. What else can I check, do, measure prior to ripping out the pump? The fuel filter only has 12000 kms on it, I run Amsoil diesel conditioner and centane boost, so I think the fuels OK, no air in lines.

Like a mentioned I have a VAGCOM and have the bently manual (CD here in a few days)so I can log some data if that would help. Reading all of the previous posts shead some light, but no real answers except to rebuilt the pump. I guess I jsut want to ensure that it is the pump.

Thanks for your help,

Dave

Thanks for responding GoFaster, I was hoping that you would seeing how you are the God when it comes to TDI engine if I may say so. We actually meet the the GTG in Barrie in Feb 01 and you helped me out with the N75 boost control difference problem that I was having and it has never occured since.

Well the drive home yesterday was interresting, the engine only died three times all while slowing down downshifting and braking. Thankfully no cut outs while on the highway.

Here are the measurements from group 1 at warm idle:
Engine Speed: 903/min
Injection Quantity: 2.2 mg/R
Modulating Piston Displacement: 1.420 V
Coolent Temp: 81.0 C

I also notice that the MPD varied between 1.366 to 1.440V while idling, but seemed to settle at the 1.420V for a while.

I also logged some data during the engine deaths yesterday, so hopefully there's something in there that may help.

Dave

hmmm, aside from being right on the specification limit for fuel delivery on the rich side (seen worse), looks normal.

Does it always cut out when coasting? When it's on the highway, does it cut out while coasting downhill or slowing down? Or has it ever happened under other circumstances?

When I'm coasting at high RPMs it's not a problem, seems to be more of a problem when slowing down when either coming to a stop or turning. Sometimes on the highway when I'm cruising (constant speed) it has cut out.

I took a look the logs from yesterday while driving home I have noticed the following:

Here's what I got while driving home last night:

Wierd #1:
Engine RPM Inj Quant. Mod Pist Displ
2898 16.2 2.26
2877 7.8 1.68
2835 8.0 1.64
2751 0 0.78
2688 0.2 0.78
2625 1.0 0.96
2583 4.8 1.5
2520 3.2 1.44
2478 3.4 1.36
2394 3.6 1.34
2352 15.6 2.2
2373 15.6 2.22
back to normal

Wierd #2:
Engine RPM Inj Quant. Mod Pist Displ
2520 5.6 1.56
2520 5.6 1.56
2541 3.2 1.5
1848 25.2 2.88
1995 15.2 2.28
1953 0.2 0.78
1932 3.8 1.36
1932 4.8 1.48
1890 4.8 1.44
1890 10.6 1.78
1932 10.8 1.8
1911 9.4 1.76
1932 14.6 2.02
1953 17.8 2.88
2037 9.8 1.94
2037 7.4 1.62
1995 6 1.56
1953 10.2 1.74
1953 13.6 2
1953 17.2 2.14
2037 20.8 2.68
2163 17.8 2.74
2184 12.4 1.9
2163 11.8 1.92
2079 0.2 0.78
1953 0.6 0.78
1848 10.6 1.78
1869 17.6 1.78
1932 23.2 2.84

bounces around some more with the injection quantities at 0 with the mod disp at 0.78 and this is when the DTC 1268 - Lower stop spec is thrown.

I've got more data but it's pretty much the same story. Hopefully you can shed some light on my situation.

thanks,

Dave

[ April 05, 2002, 09:18: Message edited by: Dust ]

How about draining the filter to see if there is water?

Yeah I thought about that as well and I drained the filter a few days ago and it looked fine, no particles or water visible in the dixie cup.

Another ideas?

dave

Hope he doesn't work at an airport and putting that Jet-A in that TDI (especially if it has Prist additive)

"Restart car, clear codes and have very erratic idling, then engine revs to 2400 RPM, I turn the car off, still running"

Have you checked the fuel shutoff solenoid? It has been reported that if the o-ring isn't set right it can cause those symptoms. I don't think the fuel shutoff solenoid valve is that expensive either.

I've done the output tests on the fuel shut-off solenoid with the VAGCOM and the cars stops, so I'm fairly confident that it's working OK. It was the first time that the car has ever done that and it sound like the runaway problems that some people have had with the A3's (like mine) since it doesn't have the intake air flapper. Like I previously mentioned I did notice oil residue from the CCV at the intake air pipe and it scares the hell out of me that it could be blow by oil, but I guess a compression test would answer that question.

Dave

There are some fumes coming out of there anyway. Mine oily as well.

You might want to try to reseat the o-ring anyway - it's free! There's a faq on it somewhere on Fred's.

Thanks I'll hunt around for the FAQ on the o-ring. I gues that may answer the runaway situation, but any ideas about the erratic injector pump?

Dave

Now I am on real shaky ground here, but if fuel is gradually choked off for some reason, perhaps the fuel pump's not being able to keep up with the request quantity rate requested by the accelerator pedal via the ECM would cause the code.

From the FAQ:
Idles high, but has no power:
- Fuel cutoff valve O-ring unseated. With the engine cover removed, the fuel cutoff valve is located on top of the injection pump just above where the four steel lines go into the end, and has a single wire going to it. Remove this valve (disconnect the wire first!) and make sure the black O-ring is all the way against the body of the valve, then reassemble.

- Accelerator pedal position sensor malfunction.

I don't know about the accelerator pedal in this case. It seems that you're trying to push down on the pedal in response to poorer performance, but for whatever reason, the pump isn't able to deliver.

Dust

My A3 Ibiza TDI110 also shows this error code on the VAG-COM:
01268 Quantity Adjuster (N146)
27-10 Implausible Signal - Intermittent

This happens sometimes and it´ll flash the glow-plug light. This only happens when my TB is adjusted near the max setting, but see no actual side effects while driving it besides great power.
Is you car stock?

I wouldn't say that the engine idles high, I've seen this when limp mode is engaged and the engine idles around 1100 RPM, my RPMs at idle are at 903 which is normal. I do have power, but the problem is the power is erratic (over and undershooting the quantity adjuster limits) and triggers fault codes which end up shutting the engine off. If it was only on one spectrum I could either lean or enrich the pump with a TB or the Evry mod, but since it's all over the place that would just make things worse. I must also admit that I think the problem was masked by having a dirty MAF, since I've cleaned it the problem has only gotten worse. I think the dirty MAF dampened the injector pump problem since the MAF sensed less air and was more sluggish thus injecting less fuel and not responding as quickly.

I think the accelerator pedal is OK it seems to read OK when I check it with the VAGCOM and when I engage the cruise control the value read remains consistant.

I'm up for a timing belt change in about 8000kms so if this problem hasn't been solved by then I'll probly send the pump in for a rebuild while the belts are off.

Dave

TDIIRacer:

I have an A3 Jetta TDI Upsolute chip, PiperX cone and an Oil Guard filter, so I wouldn't call it stock, but it's not a beast.

I've have been getting the 01268 Quantity Adjuster (N146) error codes, but never the 27-10 code. Usually the're the Upper or Lower stop specs and are intermittent, in which case the lights start twinkling and I can still drive. Recently I've been getting the nasty Upper and Lower Stop specs that kill the engine.

Dave

Any other ideas anyone? If not I think I'm going to clean my garage and rip out the pump and send it to Rovan for a rebuild.

Dave

Dust, have you followed this thread at all?

Yes, I have been following that thread as well, but it looks like you're having the Quantity adjuster problem at the Upper Stop Spec. I don't think the reverse Evry mod will work for me since I also have the Lower Stop Spec code and that mod will just make it worse.

Dave

Understood, strange that it should be going out on both ends of the spectrum. I wish you luck, let us know what you discover, short of a total rebuild.

Here's an update for those of you that are interrested.

Well I managed to do the to the timing, V and serpentine belts on my car last week without any problems. Then I noticed that my timing was retarded so I decided to adjust the timing by rotating the injector pump. Easier said than done. The pump was seized onto the mounting bracket and after a lot of rust off and gentle prying, still no luck. Seeing how the pump is 5K I decided to let VW try it and be responsible if it broke. Well the tech tried body checking, prying, yelling without prevail and resorted to the hammer and punch. Finally got the pump free, rotated and timing is now good.

Now here's the funny part. Driving home my quantity adjuster problem that I had in the past seemed to wake up from the pump aggravation and was rather p*ssed off. The RPMs were all over the place, engine cutting out and through codes in my face. Here's the really funny part. I had to remove the injector pump which entails removing the timing, V, and serpentine belts that I had just done the day before.

Well I took the pump into a Bosch diesel injection shop and they inspected the internals of the pump. It turns out that the guts of the pump were shredded and metal particles flew into the quantity adjuster disintegrating it. Looks like a pump rebuild to the tune of $1700 for me

The cause to my grief was low viscosity fuel ( i.e. low lubricity) not sufficiently lubricating the pump internals. The moral of my agonizing story is to use fuel additives with every tank, specifically Stanadyne Lubricity formula (the only additive manufacture that actually manufacturers diesel injection pumps)

I hope that it's not too late for the rest of you out there.

Dave

Dust, order some SoyDiesel and add a pint per 7-10 gallon when you fill up, and you should be at about 2% and all the lubricity you need, less than a dollar a tank, in addition to any other additive you use. Then you are always covered no matter what.

My condolences

Is that $1700 Canadian? (I ask 'cause VW offered a reman. for US $1300)

Did you bring the pump to Rovan?

Yes that is $1700 Canadian for the parts and labour. VW up here will sell a reman. for $2700 CND or a new one for $4800 CND.

After speaking with an unbiased individual in the diesel industry he suggested that I check out Sharma Diesel Injection Service ( 1-866-630-7091) in Mississauga, ON and talk to Moe. He said that Moe is Bosch certified and that his pricing is more reasonable than Rovan's. After speaking with the guys at Rovan on a few occasions, their pricing increased with every phone call from $1300 to $1800 CND for the quantity adjuster alone saying that Bosch had a price increase. Rovan's money grabbing and the recommendation made it an easy choice to take my business to Sharma Diesel and I can only praise Moe for his honesty and professionalism and would not hesitate to recommend his services for anyone else who has suffered from injection pump problems.

Dave

[ May 24, 2002, 07:54: Message edited by: Dust ]

How many miles on your car Dust? In-service time (month and year)?

Pick up my Jetta on March 18th, 1998 and now has 178000 Kms. Started using Amsoil Diesel Fuel conditioner around 150000 KMS and started with the Stanadyne lubricity formula around 170000Kms. The original problem surfaced in October 2001 around 155000Kms, but I guess the damage had already been done.

I can only hope the the Stanadyne lubricity formula will spare me from future problems when the pump is re-built.

Dave

Dust ,
Sorry to hear about your pump failure. Along the lines of low lubricity fuel not sufficiently lubricating the pump internals. Your comment struck me a really strange. I own a diesel John Deere tractor. While I was at the J. Deere store picking up some gear box oil I was talking to the maintenance manager. He was the one the brought up this topic about "Low Lubricity Fuel" and they have also seen pump failures (thankfully on newer larger pumps) caused by this situation. What JD is now reccomending is adding 2 cycle oil to the fuel mixture.
Now...after reading your comment....I'm VERY conserned. Just putting 2+2 togeather makes me shiver at the thought of shelling out that kind of $$$$ all for the want of a few oz. of 2 cycle oil per tank full.

Dust -

Thanks for the scoop on Sharma, I spoke with them a year ago but Bosch did not offically list them as capable of rebuilding TDI pumps at the time & price was similar to Rovan.

Did the price include removal & reinstall of the pump from/into the car? If so that is better than Rovan, their price was for the rebuild parts & labor only no remove/install from/into the engine.

[ May 26, 2002, 08:08: Message edited by: NYTDI ]

NYTDI:

I actually found Sharma's info on Bosch's website and it states that they are Factory Trained For: A, MW, P, P7, P8, VE, EC, TICS. The Pump that we have is the VE.

The price did not include the removal and instalation of the pump. As far as I know none of the injection shops will do this service. You either have to take it to a mechanic or do it yourself. It's not that difficult of a job to remove the pump if you know how to do a timing belt change on the TDI. I have done four timing belt changes and removed the pump twice from my jetta, so I've become quite the expert at doing it.

Dave

Thanks for the answers.

I know that Bosch listed a bunch of shops as VE qualified but as I called them it came to light that a lot of them did not have the extra equipment needed to do the VE that comes on the TDI even though they could do other VE series pumps so I asked Bosch who had the equipment specific to the TDI and at the time the only name they gave me was Rovan. Good to know that they have competition in their own back yard. I'm not bothered by R&Ring the pump, just not sure about how to handle the shipping to Canada and back (duty? customs?). I've thought about driving up, do an R&R in the lot, drive home the next day. I'll have to check & see how they handle pumps shipped from/to the USA.