Driving in extreme cold?

Hi all, new (non-TDI-owning) member here.

I'm considering a Golf TDI next year sometime, but living in a particularly cold climate (Alberta, Canada), I'm concerned about prolonged driving in cold weather.

For example, on a 2-3 hr drive in, let's say, -20 to -30F or worse, can I expect problems I wouldn't get on a 20 min commute?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveO:
Hi all, new (non-TDI-owning) member here.

I'm considering a Golf TDI next year sometime, but living in a particularly cold climate (Alberta, Canada), I'm concerned about prolonged driving in cold weather.

For example, on a 2-3 hr drive in, let's say, -20 to -30F or worse, can I expect problems I wouldn't get on a 20 min commute?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's very possible. windchill factor would be much lower, while your moving - well thats windchill. You would prob. need to make sure you add plenty of additive to obtain peek performance, if not then hope for the best and plan for the worst.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveO:
Hi all, new (non-TDI-owning) member here.

living in a particularly cold climate (Alberta, Canada), I'm concerned about prolonged driving in cold weather.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is one of the reasons why I selected the gasoline engine over the desiel engine. I simply don't have time to worry about unforseen problems and it gets cold here too, we call it the other half of the year around here.

DaveO,
normally you won't have any trouble with the car. I went on a vacation in Austria where it was -27°C (car outside for some days). After glowing for some seconds car started without any problems. When you say that commute time is only 20 min, and car is sleeping outside then it starts to warm up when you arrive at work/home. In Europe some cars are equipped with the espar diesel/water heater. Look for messages from Gevaert and heat to find out more or visit www.espar.com

DaveO

I had a fuel line freeze last winter on an extremely cold day (approx. -20 C), but I think that it was due to the quality of fuel. Since then I just add about 50 mL of anti-gel (Kleenflo) and have not had a problem since. I don't think that wind chill is an issue as it is a measure of how quickly body heat is lost at a given wind speed, and does not have an effect on inanimate objects.

I'm sure wind blowing around an engine block would remove heat faster, so that the engine would cool down faster. Our cars do have some more insulation.

I think MikeL has found out that the newer Canadian cars have a device in the tank that does something or other to prevent gelups.

Late the 2.0 is for &^$%#@*. I used to own that crap engine (Cabrio Highline Automatic - Wifes car) and sold it for a TDI automatic. I have to jump you on this A gasoline engine may not start at all in sub zero temperatures due to flash points of gasoline and possible ice crystals in the comustion chamber due to the high moisture produced by gasoline in cold climates as well as the smaller low torque starter.

If you have ever lived in EXTREME and I mean VERY EXTREME areas you will know that the diesel engine is preferred. I used to live in Barrow Alaska where I flew as a Bush pilot. I am here to tell you the hardest part of my day was getting my gasoline engines started (generators, airplane, etc). I always had problems with induction icing due to the venturi in gasoline engine throttle bodies, Ice crystals in the gasoline that constantly clogged fuel filters (even in the airplane!! easy to fix roll the plane and keep a negative G for a second or two and it would let the gas flow again). I had a diesel powered Case loader that son of gun lit off every single time down to -60F! We never used antigel because the fuel was formulated for those temperatures. It did have a block and oil heater, I used to curse cause I wanted a diesel in my Cessna 207 sooooo bad, I take that back I wanted a Cessna 208 it had a turbine/diesel same thing .

As far as the TDI here is the scoop. For the most part the fuel in your given area is usually formulated to stay fluid in that area for the specific time of the year. The TDI because of very high fuel pressures creates a lot of hydraulic heat in the fuel so much that in the automatics that have a higher pressure than the stick VW had to add a fuel cooler! Keep in mind tha a high percentage of the fuel sent to the injectors is returned to the tank. Before the fuel is returned, the hot fuel is mixed with incoming fuel in the fuel filter. This breaks down any gelling and keeps a continious flow of fuel going to the tank. Typical fuel temperatures in the middle of winter will approach 130F+ depending on how fast your driving, you can measure the fuel temperature using a VAG-COM or VW-Tool software.

I know from experience that the TDI does start faster is arctic temperatures. The reason a TDI starts so well (better than any gasser) is the engine has a high torque gear reduction starter. The TDI only needs 150 RPM to achieve ignition but VW realized that with really cold oil the starting system needs to achieve at least this. So with the higher capacity battery and high torque starter the TDI is said to be able to light off down around -50F without any special procedures or block heaters assuming the fuel is formulated properly.

As for driving in these conditions Adding a fuel additive is a good idea and not a big deal. There are some that are very effective and reasonably cheap plus they hgiher the Cetane rating of the fuel so you get a bit of a performance increase and lower soot production.

I hope this helps out
DB

In very cold weather starting will not be a problem, but staying warm inside the car will be.

The cold is not really an issue with a modern diesel like the the TDI anymore than it is with any benzine burner.

Sure, it'll take 5-10 minutes longer to get nice hot air coming out of the vents to warm the passenger compartment-- but that's pretty much it. I have started my TDI several times in sub zero temperatures with no problem at all. You really do not have to worry about it. The 2.0 liter gas engine is an ordinary, underperforming gas-guzzling lump compared to the TDI-- it isn't even worth considering honestly. The 1.8T is exciting, but it ain't no TDI and it will never offer TDI economy ans reliability and it is not nearly as unique.

If you have doubts about the TDI in cold weather-- give VWofA a call and ask them how many TDI's they sold in Canada last year

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1999 New Jetta GL TDI
Atlantic Blue/Gray studio

Mods: VW rubber floor mats, Ultra Nørsk Pine scented air freshener.

When its very cold (-10F and below)both gas and diesel engines may actually lose heat. I remember one day when Iwas visiting in Winnipeg when the high was around -20F and the car (gasoline engine)just got colder and colder at idle (you could see the temp needle going down). You had to rev it up or just drive around the block to keep the engine hot. If it's really cold, I would recommend blocking off the engine compartment from the elements (e.g. put a shroud in front of the radiator, it can be just a piece of cardboard). At temps that cold you don't really have to worry about overheating. Many over the road diesels have these shrouds installed; you can also see many cars with their radiators blocked off in really cold parts of the US and Canada. P.S. DONT DO THIS (BLOCK OF THE RADIATOR) UNLESS THE TEMPERATURE IS ALWAYS WELL BELOW 20F.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveO:
Hi all, new (non-TDI-owning) member here.

I'm considering a Golf TDI next year sometime, but living in a particularly cold climate (Alberta, Canada), I'm concerned about prolonged driving in cold weather.

For example, on a 2-3 hr drive in, let's say, -20 to -30F or worse, can I expect problems I wouldn't get on a 20 min commute?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the contrary, it's better to drive 2 - 3 hours in extreme cold than it is to drive for 20 minutes because the car will have time to warm up to operating temperature. When it's -20°F outside, the car will not reach operating temperature in 20 minutes unless you're flogging it (which isn't a good idea when it's not warmed up... kind of ironic).

If you're the type of person who likes instant heat (like me), I would recommend buying an oil pan heater. There are several dealers on the internet, for example www.ez-heat.com . They're fairly inexpensive... around $50 - $90.

I hope you decide to get the TDI. You'll be VERY happy with it.

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2000 Yellow New Beetle 1.9T Manual

This has to be one of the most frequently asked questions.

This TDI engine is awesome.
It starts better in in the morning than the 2.0 loaner I have right now! Serious and that is with temps in the 30s!

There were mornings last year down to -20 F (yeah F not C) and the TDI started right up after the glow plug cycle. IT was a little louder and rougher than normal but no resistance and it fired up the first time, once started it just ran.

There were Gas cars that couldn't start that morning. My wife's Volvo wagon. No start. Wouldn't even turn over (oil problem - fixed that by going from 10W-30 to 0W-30 synthetic).

Look. There are almost more Canadien TDI owners here than us U.S.ers. There are more problems reported with the lower 48 cars in the winter than Canadien cars mostly due to the fuel supply!

This is a null issue. The gasoline engine my warm up (passenger compartment) faster but get the seat heaters and forgetaboutit

One thing I forgot to mention is that ALL TDI's have the supplemental heat system. The supplemental glow plug circuit heat's the coolant as it leaves the cylinder head on the way to the passenger compartment. This ensures heat to the occupants under all extremes. The TDI will in fact produce heat faster than a gasoline engine on very cold days because of this coolant heater system.

If I had to do the arctic again I would choose the TDI hands down, reason - because I know what I can count on to run and run reliably in the most adverse conditions.

Gasoline engines it should be noted are ok until the temperatures start to drop below -20F. After that most ignition system have a hard time iginiting the fuel mixture due to low volatility. Grant it most systems in cars use a high energy system but when ice crystals form on the spark plug gaps it does little good and you have a no chance of starting the engine unless you remove and clean all the plugs. Other issues are frozen breather lines (had it happen), intake icing (had it happen), I could go on but you get my point.

DB

Hi DaveO,

I'm in Edmonton aswell. Put your order in for your TDi today. Last winter was my first winter with a diesel and I had no problems at all. I would recomend using some kind of additive. I didn't even know that diesel additives existed last year (before I discovered Fred's). Now that I am enlightened my favorite is Redline Diesel Fuel Catalyst in combination with Bardahl cetane boost (haven't tried the Amsoil cetane boost yet).

Additives are not needed, the diesel in Canada is treated for the cold weather (by law they have to) but because of the low cetane levels it makes your car runs smoother (it does for my A3 Jetta).

When you do order it get the cold weather package (it's only an extra $230)and keep your buns toasty.

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Long Live TDi
97 Jetta TDi
Upsolutely Awesome
1975 Triumph TR6

Hmmm.. After reading all this i do belive I made the right decision to buy the jetta tdi auto.

Hey, thanks to everyone for these comments--this is one heckuva useful forum!

--Dave

Don't worry about your diesel not operating in cold weather. Used to live in Lac La Biche, northeast of Edmonton in the early 80"s. Had a particularly cold spell minus 60 in either 81 or 82. The car would start being plugged in but could hardly get it past idle because it was sucking in all those ice crystals in the air and freezing it up. not very often you get temps that cold and nearly everything else wasn't running as well. Most of our work vehicles were Fords at that time and in those temps the power steering pumps and the automatic overdrive transmissions just blew up. We ended up having to leave them running continuously. Even the old rabbit would start at -25 to 30 without being plugged in so long as your battery and glow plugs were up to snuff. I expect the new tdi's are much better.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by think diesel:

The 2.0 liter gas engine is an ordinary, underperforming gas-guzzling lump compared to the TDI-- it isn't even worth considering honestly. The 1.8T is exciting, but it ain't no TDI and it will never offer TDI economy ans reliability and it is not nearly as unique.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is of course one opinion about a prefered car. The 2.0 is ordinary? I think thats a very good thing. Under perfoming? Mine performs quite well. Gas guzzling? I think I will hit 350 miles per tank when I final empty it. I garantee that the price you pay for desiel and additive and repairs, you will lose more than you gain.


[This message has been edited by liteW8 (edited November 15, 2000).]

B.S. The price of diesel is unusually high right now, but no more than that of premium gasoline. Usually it's cheaper. In the long run a TDI is MUCH cheaper to own an operate than a 2.0. It's quieter on the highway, thanks to the lower revs. AT SEA LEVEL the 2.0 is quicker from 0-60, but not by a wide enough margin that you'd notice. Above sea level, especially at high altitude, a 2.0 cannot begin to keep up with a TDI. Regardless of altitude the top gear passing acceleration of a TDI on the open road blows away a 2.0...and most other gassers. Assuming the quality of design, construction and materials are approximately equal a diesel can be expected to last about 40% longer than a comparable gasser. A 2.0 isn't even in the same league as a TDI. You couldn't pay me to drive one of those noisy little buzz boxes.

-mickey

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mickey:
B.S. The price of diesel is unusually high right now, but no more than that of premium gasoline. Usually it's cheaper. In the long run a TDI is MUCH cheaper to own an operate than a 2.0. It's quieter on the highway, thanks to the lower revs. AT SEA LEVEL the 2.0 is quicker from 0-60, but not by a wide enough margin that you'd notice. Above sea level, especially at high altitude, a 2.0 cannot begin to keep up with a TDI. Regardless of altitude the top gear passing acceleration of a TDI on the open road blows away a 2.0...and most other gassers. Assuming the quality of design, construction and materials are approximately equal a diesel can be expected to last about 40% longer than a comparable gasser. A 2.0 isn't even in the same league as a TDI. You couldn't pay me to drive one of those noisy little buzz boxes.

-mickey<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like how you used the word "usually" ever so gently. The only thing you can really compare is your passing ability, because in the end thats all you gain. Do you know why gasoline engines are so Popular? I am willing to bet it's because they are better... think about it... it requires less oil to produce gasoline, which is becoming a rare resource, which is why you PAY more for desiel. Then you have to buy MORE additives, then theres every other gizmo to keep it alive. Do the math. All you guys can really say is it goes faster hehe, I can get to the red light allot quicker hehe. good for you. To say the desiel is a much better car than the 2.0 gasoline engine, is to say that the many more millions of people that own gasoline engines are dumb. Think about what you are all saying? it doesn't make logical sence.


[This message has been edited by liteW8 (edited November 15, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by liteW8:
Do you know why gasoline engines are so Popular? I am willing to bet it's because they are better<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Celine Dion
Microsoft Windows
VHS
MacDonalds
Wal Mart
Chevrolet
SUVs

Yep, you're right, popular is better.

Jamie

Jamie LMAO!!!!

on colder days i let the glow plugs stay on about 7 seconds longer after the light shuts off. try it once i never have had a problem with my diesel starting...and i have heated seats

liteW8...man, you are smarter then all of us the problem with the gas engine people, such as yourself, is that they do not realise what the NEW TDI engine is all about. cleaner burning, less soot yada yada yada. think about what you are saying man."it doesn't make logical sence[sic]."

oh, BTW, i hit 650 miles before i have to even THINK about getting fuel!!!

garrett P.

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2000 JEDI TDI Silver (helps reflect cosmic rays)
Full Commander, Prime Minister of Power and all that is good
assistant to President Valois in the UPsolute territory

LiteW8: This is of course one opinion about a prefered car. The 2.0 is ordinary? I think thats a very good thing. Under perfoming? Mine performs quite well. Gas guzzling? I think I will hit 350 miles per tank when I final empty it. I garantee that the price you pay for desiel and additive and repairs, you will lose more than you gain.

The 2.0 liter does perform well, when revving it to 5,000 rpm. Gas guzzling actually the 2.0 liter with an automatic will get almost 30 mpg, my TDI Automatic on a bad day will get 45. Fuel additives do help both engines, but gasoline engine tend to have get clogged injectors due to certain fractions of oil not being fully distilled out and the lower pressure sytems (30ps verses 19,000 in a TDI), diesel engines are not harmed by these contaminants.

If you want to compare apples to apples the fact is the diesel is the only engine that approaches true perfection in thermal and mechanical efficiency, the gasoline engine never will due to aftercooling (richer than stich. mixtures).

Facts be the facts the 2.0 liter is a reliable engine it does not produce a lot of torque but it can rev higher so therefore it does have a higher HP rating. But if you do the math the TDI produces more HP all the way up to 4,000 rpm but who really drives at rpms higher than that anyway? if you do you probably are better off not getting a TDI because you just want to destroy the engine rather than operating it for it's true designed life of 750,000+ miles, a 2.0 liter is around 300,000 if you really take care of it.

As far as maintanence is concerned on the TDI you have to change the timing belt (60,000 miles), no big deal ($64.00 from the dealer) add labor and of course it can get expensive when you pay shop rate. The 2.0 liter still has a timing belt due at 100,000 miles same price to do that one assuming the dealer is familiar with TDI's if not do it your self (it takes 2 hours).

LiteW8 I realize your only purpose here is to create flames but if you don't like diesels or truly feel that your less than factual statetements belong here I say take your planet sized ego and your sack of testosterone and return to the Vortex.

DB

[This message has been edited by Drivbiwire (edited November 16, 2000).]

Oi,

it's quite cold here where I am. And we have been using diesel cars since the "begining".

And no problems. Of cource diesel car is different from gasoline car when you think about cold weather. But I can't see why somebody should buy a gasoline car just because the person is living in a cold climate.

I have a engine heater. It isn't a block heater, it's connected to the coolant system. It helps a lot.




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Vw Polo '00
TDI 1,9 90hp

ittrad and the rest pretty much covered it.

Look, liteW8-- if you don't like diesels why are you posting on a diesel forum. Try VW Vortex. There may actually be a few people over there that appreciate the 2. slow

I am not against all gasoline engines. Like I said-- the 1.8T is pretty exciting. But the fact remains that gasoline engines are less efficient, less reliable and last about half as long. The 2.0 is woefully outdated with it's 8 valve head and annoying lack of power when you drop the hammer. I know. I have driven several-- both automatic and 5 speed. The 2.0 is OK-- but it is nothing to brag about. Why do you think it is the only engine VW does not even ADVERTISE with badging on the back of the car. Every other engine, TDI, 1.8T, VR6 is worthy of a badge except the 2.0

It' s nothing special and will likely be phased out in less than two years. In my opinion if you want to see where the real quality is in Volkswagen-- look for the motors that began at Audi--- The TDI engines and 1.8T

The VR6 and 2.0 are not in ANY Audi. They are outdated and underpowered and will be gone very, very soon.

I am sorry you did not choose a TDI, lite W8.

It's your loss and you don't even seem to know it. Oh well...

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1999 New Jetta GL TDI
Atlantic Blue/Gray studio

Mods: VW rubber floor mats, Ultra Nørsk Green Apple scented air freshener.

I don't think you need to worry. One of my good friends drives a Jetta TDI in Edmonton and says he's never had a cold start problem. I was concerned about cold starting here, in Cleveland, but our winters are nothing compared to Edmonton.


Dunc

2001 Jetta GLS TDI
Silver w/ Black Leather
Cold weather, Luxury & Monsoon

Posted by liteW8:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To say the desiel is a much better car than the 2.0 gasoline engine, is to say that the many more millions of people that own gasoline engines are dumb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily dumb but definitely uninformed. 99% of the arguments that I have heard against diesels have been just plain wrong but 99% of the people at large believe them.

Then again, in a country full of monster SUV's, there's got to be some stupidity going on. Stupid is as stupid drives!

Litew8, I have to agree with think diesel. Since you decided against the TDI, your posts have been very anti-TDI. If you really believed in your decision, you wouldn't feel the need to be constantly defending it here. Having a gasser owner for opposing viewpoint is a good thing but please post actual information instead of anti-TDI rhetoric. We've heard it all before.

I'm willing to believe a former Alaska bush pilot as to what starts in the cold.

It's interesting to read this. When I bought my 97 Passat TDI I was unsure too. I was new to diesels and not one person I knew supported my decision to get a diesel. Here is what I heard from everybody: it won't start in the winter, it will smell, it will be slow, fuel is hard to find. Well ya know what, it starts easier than my gas cars at -10F, it does'nt smell, it quick enough for family transport and fuel is easy to find.

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couple of Rabbits, a Golf and a Passat TDI

If you don't like diesel's don't buy one! It's that simple.

Wind chill is not a factor and does not apply to automobiles.