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Old August 8th, 2002, 16:53   #46
Jared_in_Charlot
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Location: add a \"te\" to the above. Dang 16 character limit...
Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

Well, just so the quote is not out of context... service said that they would take care of this (second) instance. They weren't reimbursing me for the first instance.
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Old August 8th, 2002, 19:31   #47
DEZLBOY
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

Quote:
Originally posted by Jared in Charlotte:
Well, just so the quote is not out of context... service said that they would take care of this (second) instance. They weren't reimbursing me for the first instance.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OH....my mis-read of your post. Sorry. [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
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Old August 16th, 2002, 14:28   #48
jiggseob
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

1998 NewBeetle TDI, also having window regulator fun in the pass. door.

It seems that the common problem is when both of those clips snap in half, allowing the slider-half of the clips to go up and down on their tracks, and the glass-clamp-half of the clip stays attached to the glass. The window just drops. The regulator moves the sliders up and down without moving the glass.

After taking apart my door, and doing a forensic investigation of the tangled cable mess in the regulator, it seems that first, one clip broke in half, as is typical.

Then, with the regulator trying to move the whole weight of the window with just one clip, the window started acting funny. The people that were borrowing the car frantically pressed the power window switch this way and that, trying to get the window up. Then, the other clip broke. Except the second clip broke in such a way that the glass clamp stayed attached to the slider. The part of the clip that clamps the little lead cable plug broke, releasing the cable, and creating a break in that compound loop the cable goes through. The motor continued to turn the pulley this way and that, in response to the switch being pressed this way and that. The cable tangled up on the drive pulley, and started making a sinister crunching noise. The window finally dropped into the door, and the cable balled up on the drive pulley, and nothing would move.

I have determined that I need a new regulator, which comes with the two new clips. Its on its way, it costs $140 Cdn at the stealership.

In the normal circumstance, where the clips break and leave the cable loop intact, and the regulator does not knit the cable into a ball, you replace the two clips. Then, you bolt the regulator into the door, and using the motor, roll the regulator up and down as necessary to get the clips attached to the glass. The key here is that the power window motor turns a certain number of times around to take the glass through its full travel, and that position of how far the motor has turned relative to the position of the window has not changed.

In my case, the cable loop broke, and the cable balled up on the motor drive pulley, eventually balling up enought that the motor won't turn at all. I have no idea what position the motor is in, relative to the position of the glass.

The question is about how the up/down travel limits of the power window drive motors work. Are there "limit switches" inside the motor drive, that sense how far around the main drive has turned, and stop the motor when the window is all the way up or all the way down? Or is there a sensor that looks at how much current the motor is drawing, and when it draws over a certain amount, it assumes that the window is against either the top or bottom of the slides? Or some other means of travel limit sensing?

In any case, my window is taped to the top, and the motor is unplugged.

I am guessing that given the 20+ wires going into the power window motor drive unit, that the limit switches are in there somewhere. To re-align the position the power window drive uint motor thinks its in with the position the window is actually in, this is my plan:

1. Install the regulator, with the clips in the position where you can get to the clamp bolts through the rubber plug grommets.

2. Lower the glass into the regulator clips and tighten them there.

3. Somehow turn that regulator drive by hand, to roll the window all the way up, tight.

4. Plug in the power window motor drive unit, but leave it unbolted from the regulator.

5. Turn the car on, and using the switch on the drivers door, roll the passenger window up. Except with the power window motor drive unit unbolted from the regulator, it will just spin in thin air until it THINKS the window is all the way rolled up. Turn the car off.

6. Align the splines on the power window motor drive unit with the regulator drive pulley, and bolt the power window motor drive unit in place.

7. Turn the car on, and test the travel. Cross my fingers and toes, hope nothing shorts out, breaks or explodes.

I'm hoping that procedure will do it for me. If anyone has ever done this sort of thing, you'll know what I'm talking about.

If I'm way wrong in my proposed process, please post a reply before Tuesday, which is when the part should be here and I'm going to try and re-assemble this !@#%$ puzzle. If there are any suggestions or corrections to my proposed process, please post.

Thanks. Blue Beetle from Round Hill.
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Old August 16th, 2002, 15:54   #49
MOGolf
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

Connect it up completely. The motor is operated based on current draw. When resistance is high enough, the current draw increase and the motor is turned off. It is not based on time to move the window up or down.
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Old August 16th, 2002, 16:33   #50
Just Some Guy
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

jiggseob, GOOD GOD do you think too much!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

What MoGolf says, goes.

The motor will know where its new upper and lower stops the first time it hits them, period. It is smarter than you give it credit for.

Now, go fix your car.

[ August 16, 2002, 16:34: Message edited by: Just Some Guy ]
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Old August 21st, 2002, 09:28   #51
jiggseob
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

I put the regulator in the right door of my '98 Beetle last night. The pictures in those instructions from the previous posts are excellent, excellent excellent. With those pictures, its not a bad do-it-yourself job.

After doing it there's a few tips and clarifications to make it easier for the next guy:

A "regulator" that you buy from the dealer is a piece of stamped sheet metal about the size of the door panel, the slides, cables, guides, and pulleys. Does not include the power window motor, like on previous VW/Audis. The same regulator is for power windows or crank windows. The $140(cdn) isn't so bad, if you have a new Pontiac Bonneville, its like $1000.

The clips on the new regulator are kind of three piece, a die-cast aluminum part that the cables clip into, a stamped steel part that clamps to the glass, and a nylon part that goes up and down the slides. Different from the replacement "clip kit", and different from the old regulator, and different from the previously posted pictures. Looks like the manufacturer is trying various things. 4 or 5 years into production is not when the manufacturer should be "trying various things" to fix a problem.

There's a plastic thing attached to the top rear of the regulator sheet metal. Its only function is when the regulator is bolted in, to hold the door latch/lock mechanism close to the position it needs to be in to get those two 12-pt bolts in. Once those two bolts are in, the plastic thing is an internal oranament. The plastic thing is attached to the regulator sheet metal with two plastic rivets. The latch/lock mechanism slides onto a finger on the plastic thing, and is held by a pop-rivet. I couldn't get the latch/lock mechanism on, so I removed those two plastic rivets by pushing the plugs out. Then, I put the latch/lock on the finger, and used a small bolt instead of a pop-rivet. When I went to put those two plastic rivets back in, they wouldn't hold. So I trimmed the rivets a bit, and used two 5/16 bolts to hold it instead. The 5/16 bolts seemed to work fine, and didn't interfere with anything.

The 12pt triple square tool is the same one that us OLD VW freaks use on the inner cv joints of A1 and A2 Rabbit Jetta Golf.

To release the lock cylinder, as the instructions say you have to turn the screw behind the rubber plug counter clockwise (ie loosen). You also have to PUSH on the screw-head with the torx driver to operate the release. Then the lock just pops out.

If you're putting in a new regulator, you have to drill out pop rivets that hold the speaker. I just replaced them with small bolts.

On the NewBeetle, when removing the regulator, the wiring harness at the top front of the regulator sheet metal gets in the way. There is a plastic guide that routes the harness through the door metal, remove the phillips-head screw that holds the plastic wiring harness guide to make things easier.

There are several wiring clips that hold the harness to the regulator sheet metal. When I tried to pry one out of the hole in the old regulator sheet metal, the hole-plug part broke in half. So, I snipped the little bands, hoping that new clips come on a new regulator, or that I would be able to get new wiring clips. Turns out, each of those 8 or 9 wiring clips costs $4.35, and will take a week to get. From behind the regulator - which you can't get to with the harness in place - you can release those wiring clips without breaking the hole-plug. The band part of those wiring clips looks like a tiny ladder. Luckily, I snipped those clips leaving some of the ladder shaped band attached. The smallest zip-ties in my toolbox go through the "rungs" of the ladder. I tied the harness with the clips from the old regulator and the tiny zip ties. Worked well. Those tiny zip ties are like 1 cent each.

On a new regulator, there are holes in the plastic cable drive pulley housing for three screws that will hold the power window drive motor. Those holes have never had the screw in them, so they take some "push" on the screw to get the screw started biting into the plastic. When the regulator is all bolted in place, the push to get the screws started will tend to push the regulator drive pulley housing out of its mount holes and into the abyss of the interior of the door. Before putting the regulator in the door, run those screws in and out of the holes while you can still get a hand on the cable drive pulley housing. Once those screws have been in and out once, it will be easier to get them started.

The little plunger on the top of the door panel that you push down to lock the door goes through a plastic trim guide. In the drivers door, the trim guide also has a led in it to indicate alarm function. On the passenger door, the trim guide has no light in it, so before putting the panel on, pop that trim guide out from the inside of the door panel. That allows you to move the panel up and down and this way and that to get the panel to drop into its groove easier. On the drivers door, you couldn't take the trim guide out because the trim guide has the light that must be connected inside.
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Old August 21st, 2002, 10:28   #52
tongsli
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

Quote:
I couldn't get the latch/lock mechanism on, so I removed those two plastic rivets by pushing the plugs out. Then, I put the latch/lock on the finger, and used a small bolt instead of a pop-rivet.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm confused?? why couldn't you get the lock mechanism on the regulator?

Lito
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Old August 21st, 2002, 13:57   #53
jiggseob
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

I'm not sure what I was doing wrong, but the rod for the lock plunger, and the plastic finger, and the little tab that the pop-rivet goes to would not all fit on at the same time. For the Beetle, when the lock is in position on that black plastic bracket, the rubber gasket on the edge of the regulator was tight on the latch. After un-riveting it, putting it together, and bolting it, it went together fine.

Maybe the lock/latch mechanism was supposed to be in the door, but not tightened down, as I put the regulator in? If thats the how the factory did it, how did they get that pop-rivet in?

I probably did something the hard way...

Thanks all for the advice. Lets hope these regulators are improved so we don't have to get good at this job.
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Old August 21st, 2002, 21:45   #54
tongsli
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

You are correct. Removing the locking tab lifter from the lock mechanism is the best way to re-install the lock to the regulator.

Then, you can feed the locking tab lifter bar through the regulator hole and onto the lock, once you've re-installed it onto the NEW regulator.

So yes, you've answered your own question about why it wouldn't work all that well.

Lito

PS you have to be very, very careful when removing the door lock from the regulator panel. The tab lifter rod is attached at a plastic piece that has a thin arm that keeps it aligned.

IT IS VERY EASY TO BREAK THE PLASTIC TAB [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

If you do, then it's a NEW door lock!!

[ August 21, 2002, 21:48: Message edited by: tongsli ]
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Old August 22nd, 2002, 09:22   #55
jiggseob
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

For us do-it-ourselfers, every little tip or trick helps.

The reason we drive these VW TDIs is because they are insanely economical. Two hours of stealership shop labour more than offsets months of fuel savings.

The expertise on tap here makes jobs like this a lot easier, and makes it less likely that I break $300 worth of something saving $200 in labour.

Thanks again all.
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Old September 4th, 2002, 19:28   #56
GoneDiesel
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

I just did one of the two doors last night. Something wierd is happening when opening the door. The door is unlocked, as I try to pull the handle from the out side I must pull twice to open the door. Kinda like the doors in the back as a child safety feature. Any clue how to fix this? It will become very annoying soon. Thanks, GD
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Old September 4th, 2002, 19:56   #57
Just Some Guy
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

Quote:
Originally posted by GoneDiesel:
I just did one of the two doors last night. Something wierd is happening when opening the door. The door is unlocked, as I try to pull the handle from the out side I must pull twice to open the door. Kinda like the doors in the back as a child safety feature. Any clue how to fix this? It will become very annoying soon. Thanks, GD
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep. You have the cable in the end of the door handle too tight or too loose. Put it just about in the middle of the adjustment and you'll be fine.

[ September 04, 2002, 19:57: Message edited by: Just Some Guy ]
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Old September 16th, 2002, 10:07   #58
volks27
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

something I don't understand... BTW i'm a newbie. I don't have a TDI, but i'd like to attempt this procedure anyways! I hope you can welcome me in your club.

I just got new clips sitting on my desk here. Looking at the pictures, and trying to put 2 and 2 together something doesn't make sense. There are 2 clips per door, but my "regulator" or plastic piece with a "reel" only has two cables going out. Each clips have 2 prongs, total of 4 prongs for 2 cable hookups...

Now I might understand that there is a cable that remains in the door (middle cable) and I don't have to change. is this correct??

Thanks for any help.
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Old September 16th, 2002, 10:56   #59
tongsli
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

Once you get the regulator out, you will understand....

Here's the explanation:

One end of that cable goes on the bottom of one clip. There is another cable that connects the TOP part of that clip to the bottom of the OTHER clip.

Confused yet?

Then, the OTHER end of that cable goes on the TOP of the other clip.

Get it?

L
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Old September 16th, 2002, 11:11   #60
volks27
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Default Re: Upgraded Window Regulators: New Pictures and New PDF\'s

I think I do. The kit I got only have 1 cable per side. If I understand correctly, there is another cable in my door that I get to keep in the door. that cable goes from the bottom of one clip to the top of the other.

[ September 16, 2002, 11:12: Message edited by: volks27 ]
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