Water Methanol injection on a TDI?

T'sTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Location
Maryland
TDI
2001 Jetta
Mach1 said:
I agree with alot of what you are saying..Yes I agree normal combustion=H2O..Ok so now you want to go and add more?

So you are saying that there is no point where too much water is bad for the engine? Can we add gallons and gallons, since more is better, alot must be even better.

You didn't address the Meth extending the burn dwell on my diesel. Over advancing the burn???

Dont they have a new process of bending metal using hydroforming, which when it first appeared, it was actually damaging the metal with stress factures because the process wasn't controlled.

BTW, you can actually quence the flame on a compression ignition engine by inducing TOO MUCH water to the CC.
Your adding methanol/water together your not adding 100% of one or the other. 100% water would quence the flame but no kit manufacturer or any person would recommend doing so. On the other hand 100% methanol would not only over advance timing but would probably blow your engine up, again no one advising to do so.

Theres a happy medium, I have heard 13%meth by volume as a good start. This percentage has reached a concensus of keeping timing relatively the same but still seeing the benefits of WMI.

Your not flooding your engine with WMI. Sure you can go through gallons of methanol/water mixes over the course of using WMI, but those gallons were used over a long time, lots of strokes of the pistons, lots of fuel being used.

Water injection is simple yet very effective. Its benefits are somewhat unbelievable due to its simplicity but they are very real. The internals of an engine that was running on WMI vrs. the internals of an engine that was not would be significantly different. There would be no comparison.
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
TDI, I hear ya too, I know that when pane made it on the scene, it was abused and blew alot of engines, I know that meth is also abused as well, and to the point where people have damaged their engines. Ever heard of hydro-locking..

I agree with alot of what you pro WI guys, I am saying there are dangers to using it, it is no cure all, fuel replacement for diesel, It originally used for cooling engines and the induction charge...Thats it...

Now somewhere along the lines someone introduced fuel to it. and changed what we originally where trying to accomplish.

Meth, pane, NO2, hydrogen, LNG are all drugs introduced into diesel engine to supplement the base fuel. The latest high tech diesels are tuned to use some sort of high percentage of #2 for fuel, thats it..lately Bio fits in there, but only 5%.

Why stop at Meth, go on to Nitromethane, it works alot better as a power adder in WI???????????????????

I have used some drugs, and understand the dangers.

Take it how you want, bend it, shape it, any way you slice it this is the truth. Theres WI, then there is power adders by adding fuel to the WI.

Are you trying to cool the intake charge OR add more power with more fuel?
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
So water delays the ignition of methanol if its mixed together and brings it into line with the delay/combustion of straight diesel fuel........how did someone calculate this other than using (concensus) which is not a form of measurement.
 

abbyfireguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2003
Location
Abbotsford,B.C.
TDI
Golf,2002,black
I've run the snow water/meth kit on my 97 Dodge Cummins for 3 years...WATER DOES NOT QUENCH THE IGNITION....It cools...I run 100% water lots in my truck to keep EGT's under control on long hill climbs....50/50 mix for more power and cooling...
Adjustable settings allow the correct amount to be sprayed....
You have to spray one heck of a lot of water to quench a diesel....
Water injection(100%) has been used for decades going well back into pre WWII days in aviation performance engines .So, its something very far from being a new innovation..Just adapted to the automotive application..
Adding meth to the mix just adds more power ....
I run the Blue windshield washer fluid(Canadian) as it is water/meth already premixed(winter grade fluid,not summer) to the right standard for my cummins application...
TDI application is just as simple,but I have no EGT temp issues with my TDI so I'll leave it in the truck only for now...
 

SBAtdijetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Houston, TX
TDI
'10 Jetta Cup 6spd, '02 Jetta Auto


What about using a small nozzle 3 g/h or less and using only water or a water/denatured alcohol mix (don't care to mess w/ methanol) say a (60/40) mix? I’m interested in the cooling effects lowering EGT's and extra power, but don't care to sacrifice oil quality or reliability.

A remap would be a good idea to account for the extra boost you could run.
 

DbLog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Location
Royal Oak, MI
TDI
2011 335d
Oh, so the 20-30hp gains are from common rail TDI's. I thought you were refering to ALH and PD's. My mistake.

dvldoc said:
Because 20hp to 30hp on a common rail 4cly is pretty easily done. When asking for dynos people are kind of skimpy on them. Hopefully we can get you some soon.
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
abbyfireguy--sorry, but you can very easily quench the flame for a compression ignition diesel engine and even hydrolock it, its in the fine print for your instructions of your WI kit.

Have you tried Nitromethane yet for fuel?

You can dump in just about any fuel into the WI system, acetone, meth, paint thinner, nitro, peanut oil...engine oil..

Another inexpensive way to introduce fuel into the engine, use a wet manifold and spray diesel right into the intake manifold.

You cant get any more inexpensive then mounting an injector into the intake and making it a wet manifold. Inexpensive HP!!!! less expensive then a WI system.
 

MeTsU

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Location
South Africa
TDI
'05 Polo Sportline 1.9TDi (PD130)
DbLog said:
Oh, so the 20-30hp gains are from common rail TDI's. I thought you were refering to ALH and PD's. My mistake.
From what I've seen and read, I believe the PD's pick up good gains using the twin nozzle setup.
 

MeTsU

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Location
South Africa
TDI
'05 Polo Sportline 1.9TDi (PD130)
I do certainly agree you can quench the flame if injecting far too much! All is done in moderation. :D
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.

So where does the water end up?

Water go out the exhaust....or water goes into the oil(CC)???
 

T'sTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Location
Maryland
TDI
2001 Jetta
I have to agree with Mach1, I can totally see how using 100% water in WI could quench the flame in the combustion chamber. Maybe not in small quantities but if you get too greedy... Theres a reason why methanol is added but i don't think its just a power adder either. I think you can use the right amount of methanol to keep timing at what it was or close to it before ever using WMI.

As far as power goes, I think the fueling needs to be there to get anywhere close to 20-30 HP. However, all engines can benefit from a cooler intake charge... So I would think a small power increase would be seen even from a stock engine.

Correct me if I am wrong...the methanol % serves as a timing advance to help make better use of the fuel thats already there to burn more efficiently...that being the reason why you see power increases???

Too much % methanol can over advance timing and cause major problems. You have to be careful, these premixed bottles of 49%meth/51%water I think is too much methanol.

I would start off at maybe half of that % and progressively add if I wanted to pursue more power. But if I wanted more power, I would also be certain that I was maxed out to begin with as far as chipping/nozzels and all that good stuff.

I don't think theres any reason to be afraid of this stuff. However, a smart man would go about things carefully and listen to what the engine is saying, not what popular belief tells you....

WMI is used for many different applications. It can be used to cool, produce power, clean, reduce emissions and in most cases doing all of these things at once. In a stock engine, many people might pursue this more so then just power, me being one of them...
 

T'sTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Location
Maryland
TDI
2001 Jetta
Mach1- The cleansing effects of water/methanol comes from the steam cleaning of the water that is left over after combustion. Since this is true, cleaning of valves, injector tips, rings and all the internals, I would think the left over water is mainly going to go out of your exhaust. (exhaust valve)

Blowby is also always a possibility just as it is with anything that reaches your combustion chamber. How much is the question that I can't answer. Could it be evaporated away from the extreme heat if it reaches the engine oil???
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
Alright TDI,I got ya thinking, alot of people don't understand and just accept the word..

Some of the water blows by the rings and ends up in the CC, I cant say how much cause it depends on several factors, OA will keep that in check though.

I agree with the whole WI for cleaning, cooling, steam to expansion, however moderation is key..

Now if you are talking about ANY fuel introduced by external aparatus and not controlled to the tee, I dont agree with..its drugs--plain and simple..and people DO abuse them..

Meth is not a good one because of the preignition and burn dwell...it can be done and its cheap enough--however risky!!!

Control is key and moderation very important..

Most of the people in diesel rodding agree with the #2 only, as it is stated everywhere. I have a pane system on my 7.3 truck, works great and just two years ago I was getting pane for less then $1 gallon, so why not burn as much as I could?

There are pros and cons to everything, do the research both ways and then make an educated decision if its right for you.

I still believe in doing the chip/tune first.
 

DbLog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Location
Royal Oak, MI
TDI
2011 335d
Do you have any links? That other thread is pretty long and i didn't find any in my quick scan.

MeTsU said:
From what I've seen and read, I believe the PD's pick up good gains using the twin nozzle setup.
 

dvldoc

Vendor
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Location
GUAM
TDI
Spacegear
Mach1 said:
25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.

So where does the water end up?

Water go out the exhaust....or water goes into the oil(CC)???
Do you have any data to show adding 5% more water to the combustion process cause any change in things ie a EOA to back up the statement?

You do know the temp in the combustion chamber is around 1400 to 1600 degrees right? water goes to steam at 212F and methanol goes to vapor at 148F. Water is in the form of steam not a liquid and is already present in the combustion chamber and a part of the combustion process already. Water injection is proportional to the amount of fuel being used, Adding a few ml/min to the process is not going to cause negative effects. I think the fact people think there is liquid water in the combustion chamber is one of the biggest misconceptions out there.

Like I said before I would be about 100x's more worried about coking in my engine than extra steam in the combustion process.
 
Last edited:

devonutopia

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 1, 2003
Location
Devon, U.K
TDI
PD300 Skoda Fabia
What kind of Millilitres per minute / Gallons per hour do the experts reckon would be sufficient to send a 1.9 TDI into a potential hydrolock / extinguishing scenario. I would think you could happily inject water/meth at 300+ ml/min at high revs/boost - that's only 5ml every second which is not a massive amount at all.
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
Doc, that is a pro WI website, that I extracted that statement..

Heres another from the pro-list..

This is pure bunk. Water or water/alcohol/methanol does not make power...superchargers and turbochargers make power. The cooling effect of the water injection

What do you think about reading from the internet and doing a search about WI??
 

20vK

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Location
London, UK
TDI
150PD Mk4 Golf
@ devonutopia ^^good point....

How much water in a typical air/fuel/moisture mix causes the above scenarios?? ie hydrolocking, extinguishing, dimishing levels of return? obviously air/moisture varies with intake humidity etc (&WI) & this figure also varies with intake temps (turbo size, intercooler efficiency etc). then factor in CR & how well your ported head flows the waste gas out the engine.


jeeez.....all starts to get a little complicated!!!!

However, should be a generalisation for certain engines & tune. standard 1.9 intercooled 130pd for example - what would you say?

Rich


ps I'm a pro WI man on gas, so don't take my post the wrong way. Just playng devils advocate & looking for info & figures:) I'm a numbers man!!!
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
You know how we can find out what that max point is, but I dont want to use my car for that testing. I will set by and let these guys find the point and report back.

No guinea pig here.
 

turbobooster

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Location
IN
TDI
2000 Golf GLS 5-speed (sold); 2011 Golf TDI 6-speed manual
I've run as much as 9 gph for experimentation with no ill effects whatsoever.
 

20vK

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Location
London, UK
TDI
150PD Mk4 Golf
@ Mach1 - Just trying to understand your POV, so not at all arguing with you in any way!

Superchargers & turbos add heat to the mix, but increase amount of air, right? Water has relatively high specific heat capacity which absorbs a lot of heat & so reduces charge temps & increases density? do you agree so far?


Meth effectively increases burn time, supplies additional fuel/energy & so gives a more efficient combustion of diesel? is this right?

what are your thoughts? Is your restraint to the addition of meths etc down to the lack of lubrication properties?

I'm sure maths would give us a theoretical answer for hydrolocking @ a given CR and stroke @ normal operating temps etc. Your engine is safe if we can find a nerd!!!!!!!

Rich


Mach1 said:
Doc, that is a pro WI website, that I extracted that statement..

Heres another from the pro-list..

This is pure bunk. Water or water/alcohol/methanol does not make power...superchargers and turbochargers make power. The cooling effect of the water injection

What do you think about reading from the internet and doing a search about WI??
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
Quote.........20vk
Meth effectively increases burn time.......


if this is true only with the addition of water mixed at a precise percentage with the methanol......to soon btdc and it would course smoke just the same as to late with in the stroke plus the cooling effects of such a system into a mild clean tune would imo see small gains and unless larger amounts of the same mixture could be added which would supposedly give more cooling plus fueling , then there had to be the headroom there for more fueling to begin with or can we just keep on injecting more and more water in to an increasing proportion of methanol because of the waters cooling effect.........does that all make any sense........lol.
 

20vK

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Location
London, UK
TDI
150PD Mk4 Golf
Yup! perfect sense so far Steve - So we need to know how meths works within the diesel cycle on its own and in combination with h20. Worth measuring h20 without the meth. Also, we need to factor in whether we have sufficient fuel, or whether we are using meth as a crutch for insufficient fuel supply levels:



Scenario 1 : Standard diesel, inject miniscule amounts of h20. What happens? start increasing h20 levels & measure

Scenario 2: Standard diesel, inject miniscule amounts of meth. What happens? start increasing meths levels & measure


Scenario 3 : Standard diesel, inject same miniscule amounts of meth. with h20 What happens? increase meths levels & h20 levels & measure.

Note: 1-3 should be performed a number of times, in all combinations of the following variables: Standard fueling, uprated fueling, standard boost uprated boost.


I don't have my books here with me in London, so I could be wrong on the burntime aspect - was from memory. But am sure in a gas world that the combo of h20 and meths gives a higher effective octane rating and an addition of energy. Don't quote me on that, though:)

The above would be a ridiculously simplified test of what is in fact a very complicated subject. I think that latter sentence sums it up really!!!! ha ha!
 

LumberJack5500

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Location
Enfield, NH
TDI
1996 B4V
I like the idea of water/meth injection, but I have a question on the cleaning effect of the steam.

Does the water/meth setup wash down the cylinder walls and strip oil from it? I have a very basic understanding of motors...so help me out :)

There is a very thin layer of oil on the cylinder walls to help the rings glide and wear less, if you are cleaning out the internals with each stroke does it remove this protective oil barrier?
 

20vK

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Location
London, UK
TDI
150PD Mk4 Golf
LumberJack5500 said:
I like the idea of water/meth injection, but I have a question on the cleaning effect of the steam.

Does the water/meth setup wash down the cylinder walls and strip oil from it? I have a very basic understanding of motors...so help me out :)

There is a very thin layer of oil on the cylinder walls to help the rings glide and wear less, if you are cleaning out the internals with each stroke does it remove this protective oil barrier?
Hence my above queery of lubrication properties!!!
 

dvldoc

Vendor
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Location
GUAM
TDI
Spacegear
Mach1 said:
Doc, that is a pro WI website, that I extracted that statement..

Heres another from the pro-list..

This is pure bunk. Water or water/alcohol/methanol does not make power...superchargers and turbochargers make power. The cooling effect of the water injection

What do you think about reading from the internet and doing a search about WI??
I get my research first hand, I'm not a guy who sells someone elses product I started Devilsown Alcohol injection it's one reason I have my own alcohol injection forum on our site. Water/alcohol make power through increasing ignition timing and adding O2 to the combustion process as well as pressure from the steam from the water.

There is a reason high compression N/A cars run the kits it's because they get full timing and don't have to use race gas anymore. In the diesel engine adding alcohol is very similar to just adding bigger nozzles, More fuel = more power, Lower EGT's = higher effieciency which equals more power. To much of anything will make you loose power especially on gas engines they require more tunning to get the full benefits of water injection but turbo diesels it's a different story.
 

T'sTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Location
Maryland
TDI
2001 Jetta
LumberJack5500 said:
I like the idea of water/meth injection, but I have a question on the cleaning effect of the steam.

Does the water/meth setup wash down the cylinder walls and strip oil from it? I have a very basic understanding of motors...so help me out :)

There is a very thin layer of oil on the cylinder walls to help the rings glide and wear less, if you are cleaning out the internals with each stroke does it remove this protective oil barrier?
Your looking into this too much. Each stroke of the piston is going to have adequate lubrication whether there is water/methanol added or not. Where your going to see the benefits is coke and deposits on valves, rings, and maybe injector nozzel tips. So no, WMI is not going to have any ill effects on lubrication.

Theres limits to everything. The kits are designed to prevent any damage or any problems from occuring, thats why their called kits. People have done their research (dvldoc) and you need to take their word for it putting trust into the years of development and research in doing so. Not that WMI is anything new or sophisticated, the talk about quenching flames and figuring out the breaking point at which this could happen is idiodic.

They specify a specific nozzel for specific applications. Doing so should relieve any doubt that this kit could possibly blow your engine up. 4-6 gph at max boost pressure is not going to harm your engine. However 4-6 gph of an experimental see what will happen/ break first at low boost pressures/idle, yeah you may do some harm. Why even try and find the point in which an engine will hydrolock if you will never ever in any situation be injecting that much in the first place???
 

ibanix

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2007
Location
New Hartford, Connecticut
TDI
2002 Jetta 5spd
Real world results:

I've been running 4gph with 100% water up to 50/50 water/meth, with no ill effects. After a hard WOT run, my intake manifold is COLD to the touch. Not cool, COLD.

I once tried triggering it when my car was at idle. No bogging, nothing. Our cars can take far more than 4gph without issues.

A 1 or 2gph pre-turbo is next for me. And a dyno. We need to actually get a dyno of these systems on an ALH so we can have real data for people to continue to argue over. :p:rolleyes:
 

johnnloki

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Location
bowmanville ON
TDI
04 Golf TDI
ibanix said:
A 1 or 2gph pre-turbo is next for me. And a dyno. We need to actually get a dyno of these systems on an ALH so we can have real data for people to continue to argue over. :p:rolleyes:
I know this doesn't fall under the "keep it simple" side of the formula, but if I can be forgiven for being a little stupid.

I've been looking at ultrasonic misting units for pre-turbo injection: post maf into the intake pipe (though I'm unsure on the best way to do it without adding too much additional turbulance, and whether that would even matter). Ultrasonic misting means no fear whatsoever of any turbo wear due to a droplet of water hitting the turbine.
 
Top