NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Lightflyer1 said:

400 posts but almost none that mean anything. Drive your car. Put additive in it if you want. Wait for NHTSA.

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Well said.

Friends, what we need is a federal Political Action Committee. One that advocates:

Cheap, high lubricity D2 (which could be made available here just as in Europe by enticing or regulating refiners)

A federally subsidized Green diesel industry (let's get those diesels available in Europe from numerous makers here too)

A year ago when I finally got back to this site after some dissatisfaction with TDIs and Volkswagen, I started reading about the HPFP issue and was pretty concerned. I had planned to be in the market for a new car about this time, but you know how plans go. I had to move on a used car sooner than hoped so the new car prospect has shifted a few more years in the future.

Despite the investigations, I am starting to feel much more comfortable with the idea of owning a CR TDI. I used an additive, Power Service mostly, on my previous TDI at probably 95+% of fill-ups yet had repeated problems of loss of power eventually leading to total loss of power and breakdown on the interstate right at 2 hours into a 4 hour trip. I replaced that TDI with a '95 E300D and continued use of additives although maybe only 85% of the time.

Using an additive has not been recommended by VW at all in TDIs to my knowledge, but my familiarity with diesels operation from pickups on up has been that additive use is more or less how you do things. If I were to own a new TDI, you'd better believe I'd up my adherence to 100% on additive or biodiesel use. Otherwise, I think I'd be comfortable with regular operation as described in the owner's manual plus acquisition of a VAGCOM or availability of a local TDI guru. The only other qualification for me: I wouldn't touch a TDI without this forum as a resource--it's an incredible treasure, and I hope to one day be able to contribute something in return for the knowledge I've gained. Thanks.

where is putting 5 oz of PS in your empty tank a pain?? checking the oil is pain....but i do it...filling washer fluid is a pain...still do it to my vehicles,,,,dont get it really....

tdi90hp said:

where is putting 5 oz of PS in your empty tank a pain?? checking the oil is pain....but i do it...filling washer fluid is a pain...still do it to my vehicles,,,,dont get it really....

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I think it's smelly and dirty and it definitely get's tiresome. Diesel already is expensive without more for PS.

I'm living in Europe with my early-2010 A3 TDI, so I use only European diesel and pay for the more expensive premium grade (Excellium), always at Total stations. From reading this thread, it sounds like I'm not in too much danger of an HPFP catastrophic failure. That being said, I'm considering going back to using an additive at every fill up (used to use Stanadyne in my 2000 and 2001 TDIs). Anyone know a good additive that's available in France? Also, anyone know if this issue is being reported in Europe?

It Depends on Your Definition of Proof

MPBsr said:

And there's really no proof that adding anything will prolong our HPFP's.

I'm getting my oil changed at my local TDI Guru on Wed. (30,000 miles) and even though
not required, he's changing the fuel filter and yes we will be looking for metal.
Just hope there isn't any. [Me too]!

BTW .. I've been buying diesel from the same station and pump for
about 10 months now, which equals about 10,000 miles for me.

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Well said for the most part but . .

No one here can recall hearing about any CR TDIs that have had a HPFP
fail where the owner was using any good additive with regularity.

Those here who are really in the know have figured out that these failures are most likely
brought on by a lack of lubricity. Do you go along and understand that?

If you do subscribe to what these experts have discovered, why would you not want to
add something that might help improve the lack of lubricity in our locally available fuel?

That's the main reason I use an additive.



D

in light of all this information I believe I am going to take the plunge on a 2011 CR TDI. I know I won't have the 4th gen pump (built late 2010). I will take the extended warranty and see how things go. I will splash mix b2 along with Power Service and maybe use some opti XPD if no bio is available. If I lose confidence as my warranty nears its end I will trade in for a new one. Long live the Jetta !

Here in Washington (state) we apparently have a B2 mandate that went into effect in mid-2009. Perhaps that's why I haven't heard of any pump failures around here.

Chevron is sure price gouging for D2 at a nearby station. Virtually all other name brand stations around here (including other Chevrons!) are at $3.69, about .10 more than PUG. But this one station is $3.99, .30 higher

IFRCFI said:

Hmmm...not too sure about that. Every case I've seen in this forum has stated "additives: No"

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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3184489&postcount=16 PowerService (although it was a faulty pressure regulator, not a true HPFP failure)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3184495&postcount=22 Stanadyne (although not all the time)

Westro said:

At this time there is NO evidence that additional lubrication extends pump life by x amount of hours.

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That's just not true. Bosch published a graph that shows a direct correlation between fuel lubricity and pump life. At a 300-ish wear scar rating, the pump has almost an indefinite lifespan. With 520 wear scar fuel, pump life is greatly diminished. If your credentials are greater than those of Bosch engineers, I'd be interested in seeing them. http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf (Page 12) The document covers light duty Diesel fuel injection components and has not been superceded.

The problem is lousy U.S. fuel standards and poor quality control even at those lousy standards. Some "Bubba" at a fuel terminal could forget to add the lubricity package and Voila! You're driving around with 600 to 700 wear scar rated fuel in your tank. U.S. Diesel fuel is frankly an embarrassment.

Our U.S. fuel companies have adopted the American attitude of "mediocre and arrogant".

Westro said:

At this time there is NO evidence that additional lubrication extends pump life by x amount of hours.

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That's just not true. Bosch published a graph that shows a direct correlation between fuel lubricity and pump life. At a 300-ish wear scar rating, the pump has almost an indefinite lifespan. With 520 wear scar fuel, pump life is greatly diminished. If your credentials are greater than those of Bosch engineers, I'd be interested in seeing them. http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf (Page 12)

The problem is lousy U.S. fuel standards and poor quality control even at those lousy standards. Some "Bubba" at a fuel terminal could forget to add the lubricity package and Voila! You're driving around with 600 to 700 wear scar rated fuel in your tank. U.S. Diesel fuel is frankly an embarrassment.

Our U.S. fuel companies have adopted the American attitude of "mediocre and arrogant".

scdevon said:

The problem is lousy U.S. fuel standards and poor quality control even at those lousy standards. Some "Bubba" at a fuel terminal could forget to add the lubricity package and Voila! You're driving around with 600 to 700 wear scar rated fuel in your tank. U.S. Diesel fuel is frankly an embarrassment.

Our U.S. fuel companies have adopted the American attitude of "mediocre and arrogant".

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Bubba doesn't add the lubricity additive at any petroleum terminal, a computerized system does. Get your facts straight.

On the attitude part, state your source?

Then how has Bosch gotten 650 um fuel from a pump?

The computerized system fail? Or Bubba forgot to turn the computer on?

aja8888 said:

Bubba doesn't add the lubricity additive at any petroleum terminal, a computerized system does. Get your facts straight.
On the attitude part, state your source?

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"Bubba" could forget to refill the lubricity tank that the computer uses at the terminal or whatever...... Human hands come into play somewhere in the chain. "Bubba" has also been known to add gasoline to underground diesel tanks at fuel stations. Just sayin'.........

U.S. fuel companies were pressured to adopt the "460" wear scar standard that every other civilized country has, but they got an "attitude" and "cheaped out" and went with the "520" standard despite evidence that the 520 standard is mediocre at best. (Probably to save a few bucks per tanker load of fuel).

bhtooefr said:

Then how has Bosch gotten 650 um fuel from a pump?

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You beat me to it. Random samples obtained by Bosch included untreated high um Diesel from U.S. Diesel fuel pumps. NO LUBRICITY ADDED.

Exactly. The refiners could easily produce high lubricity fuel but they are greedy and won't spend the tiny upgrade cost despite obscene windfall profits off rigging the prices. Only regulation by the Feds will get the job done but the industry owns congress. That's why we need a diesel car PAC.

scdevon said:

"Bubba" could forget to refill the lubricity tank that the computer uses at the terminal or whatever...... Human hands come into play somewhere in the chain. "Bubba" has also been known to add gasoline to underground diesel tanks at fuel stations. Just sayin'.........
U.S. fuel companies were pressured to adopt the "460" wear scar standard that every other civilized country has, but they got an "attitude" and "cheaped out" and went with the "520" standard despite evidence that the 520 standard is mediocre at best. (Probably to save a few bucks per tanker load of fuel).

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Human hands made those time bombs you are driving, too. If you really are so down on the US petroleum industry, don't buy their products. It's that simple.

aja8888 said:

Human hands made those time bombs you are driving, too. If you really are so down on the US petroleum industry, don't buy their products. It's that simple.

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Because we all know thats a viable option right?

Abismo said:

Because we all know thats a viable option right?

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Chevy Volt,
Nissan Leaf,
Public transportation,
Bicycle,
Biodiesel,
Move to Canada or Mexico,
Work from home,
etc.

aja8888, it's pretty clear the reason we don't have appropriate diesel is because the oil companies lobbied so effectively against it.

aja8888 said:

Chevy Volt,
Nissan Leaf,
Public transportation,
Bicycle,
Biodiesel,
Move to Canada or Mexico,
Work from home,
etc.

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volt (cant afford it)
leaf (probably the one viable option)
our public transist system is terrible.
my car wont run on diesel
canada or mexico? seriously? how does that help me stay here
cant work from home, rather hard to take lab equipment with me.

That is just automobiles. If you are really going to avoid the petroleum industry the list of things is way longer than that. Probably have to join a really strict Ahmish group or live as a mountain man (Jeremiah Johnson).

642 XAG said:

aja8888, it's pretty clear the reason we don't have appropriate diesel is because the oil companies lobbied so effectively against it.

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The fuel suppliers will make any spec fuel grade that ASTM asks for. Why not go after ASTM to change their spec if its not suitable for US diesel?

The lubricity additive that Lubrizol provides Murphy Oil (for example) is a minute cost per gallon. Incidentally, the additive suppliers set the program code of the injection of the additives in the distribution rack, since they guarantee (to the fuel supplier) meeting ASTM with their system.

Where the mistakes are coming is from the occasional fuel hauler that misfuels the retail station (Katy, Texas: Shell this weekend gasoline in diesel incident) and from station owners allowing water to accumulate in underground tanks. There are more places for error, and if you all knew all the details in how we get fuels from terminals to retail stations, you would be shocked (Mostly independent truckers hauling different fuels and chemicals in the same truck).

I live in BC, Canada where we have biodiesel mandates. If I recall correctly they began on Jan 1, 2010 with a 3% mandate , growing to 4% this year and 5% next. Given this fuel standard, what are your opinions regarding the necessity of additives? I've had my 2010 Jetta TDI since last April and have always fueled with either Shell V-Power or Husky Diesel Max (no additives).

blue said:

This HPFP deal is making me hesitate on getting a Golf TDI. I was hoping to make a purchase this week. In your opinion, is the 2.5L a better option in light of these issues? I really like the Golf in general (a lot better than, say, a Corolla), but not at the expense of $10,000 repair bills.

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I have a 09 first year for the CBEA engine so I got the extend warranty to cover myself you just never what could happen on a first year model so far no problems at 23k and I don't use additive. In 2010 bough a nother one no problems at 5k.Good luck

_PK_ said:

I live in BC, Canada where we have biodiesel mandates. If I recall correctly they began on Jan 1, 2010 with a 3% mandate , growing to 4% this year and 5% next. Given this fuel standard, what are your opinions regarding the necessity of additives? I've had my 2010 Jetta TDI since last April and have always fueled with either Shell V-Power or Husky Diesel Max (no additives).

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In the U.S., where most of the fuels sold are grades of gasoline, and the chances for error in retail station delivery and operation are greater, I would run an additive for two reasons:

1. increase of lubricity

2. handle any water that is in the diesel fuel.

While I don't have a 09 - 11 CR diesel, I do drive a Passat PD. I add one quart of soy-based biodiesel to each tank of D2 to increase lubricity. PDs seem to handle any water OK so I don't treat for that.

Petroleum is a necessary evil in our society. Petroleum companies should be heavily regulated and controlled like utility companies. They should be punished and brought back into line when they market an inferior product to retail customers like watery 520 UM diesel fuel that has even questionable 520 um quality control.

I think the real issue is with the EPA, put the sulfur back and your lubrication comes back.

Bosch and VW got caught with their pants down, they put out a pump that doesn't operate well with ULSD I believe. Run LSD in it and maybe it runs for 10000 hours? Just those nasty emmisions you have to worry about now.

scdevon said:

Petroleum is a necessary evil in our society. Petroleum companies should be heavily regulated and controlled like utility companies. They should be punished and brought back into line when they market an inferior product to retail customers like watery 520 UM diesel fuel that has even questionable 520 um quality control.

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Yea. And like high speed rail, the clean diesel infrastructure investment act to upgrade refineries to bigger and cleaner diesel capacity, dedicated distribution, and Bubba-proofing, and more diesel options made in the USA for more auto makers. Carrot and stick.