Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetle!

3030vision · Dec 4, 2004

I'm sure this has been discussed before and i'm sure people here have strong opinions on the matter.

I've been looking really seriously into getting a TDi. I've started to consider spending a little more money on a newer model. However, the reviews that i've read are so up-and-down! See Edmunds.com. Half of the people say it's they love them, they're the best cars they've ever had, and the rest talk about service nightmares and love/hate relationships with their car!

I'm really having a difficult time reconciling these differences. The Consumer Reports "Repeat Offender" list doesn't help my confidence.

I've owned a Honda for almost 10 years. It's an '88 with 180k miles on it. It's been a great car. I'd really like something different than a Honda, and i'm starting to become a big believer in diesel and biodiesel. Can i not have my cake and eat it too??

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Octavian · Dec 5, 2004

Move to Europe and buy a Skoda Octavia. Same hardware as Jetta, but much better put together.

wrenching40plus · Dec 5, 2004

I've owned a Honda for almost 10 years. It's an '88 with 180k miles on it. It's been a great car. I'd really like something different than a Honda, and i'm starting to become a big believer in diesel and biodiesel.

Did you catch the report on Honda diesels that appeared a couple of weeks ago? If you are accustomed to Honda reliability, then the risk of finding yourself in the "hate 'em" Volkswagen segment should guide your decision. I am hoping that, with low-sulfur fuels due to be available in 2006, Honda and others will make diesels available in the US. Not to say that the VW products are not good, but they do require fastidious upkeep, and even then there may be breakdowns, statistically more so than in the case of Honda.

cage · Dec 5, 2004

Live a little! Have I paid more in upkeep with my 98 Beetle than ANY car I have ever owned? YES! Am I able to part with my Beetle? NO! Do I regret purchasing my Beetle? NO! Would I buy another VW diesel? YES! While there have been little issues here and there, this is easily, hands down, the best car I have ever owned. Now I didn't say most reliable, I said BEST! (note there IS a difference)I have never kept a car more than 5 years simply because I get sick of them and want the next new model. Not the case with my Beetle. It is now 61/2 years old and I look foreward to driving it every day! I am still impressed with how it rides, handles, brakes, and performes. Against all popular opinion of family and friends, the TDI is the best decision I have ever made. It really is a great car with character that you fall in love with. (At least I did) Go drive a TDI and see what you think. You'll know in the first 3 minutes if its the car for you.

rotarykid · Dec 5, 2004

In the US many have the 0 to 60 mentality , and could care less about how the car will go on a gallon of fuel . SUV's prove this , if you want a real car review find a Brit. car mag. and read their reviews for real info . "Complete Car" "Car" "BBC Top Gear" , look here for a real review of diesel power .

Also on speed channel monday nights "5th Gear" is a real car tv mag. with real car data that I care about .

Motorweek is the only tv car mag. that even comes close to giving me any info that I want . The rest it's all about the flashy new Vet. ect.........

frugality · Dec 5, 2004

Consumer Reports reviews and rates appliances. Even when they rate cars, they rate them as 'appliances'. If a car to you is an appliance, then a VW isn't generally a very good one.

But I like the way cage so eloquently put it. Every now and then I think to myself, "you know, I could afford a new car", and I start to look at what's out there. And you know what I'd buy if I were to get a new car? Another TDI Golf. Except I might as well keep my 2000 TDI Golf. It's paid for, gets better mileage than a new TDI-PD Golf, and aside from a bad MAF sensor and a clogged intake, it's been very reliable.

Keiller · Dec 5, 2004

Maybe VW will read the Consumer's Report? I hope so. My impression of our Jetta TDI (2004) is that VW doesn't make it to be mantained by the user. I wish the Japanese had made a diesel available here.

jddaigle · Dec 5, 2004

My impression of our Jetta TDI (2004) is that VW doesn't make it to be mantained by the user.

Maybe so, but this user finds it much easier to maintain than any other car he's owned!

As for CR, I've always held that the customer surveys they base their reliability data on are not statistically valid as they are not drawn from a random sample of owners (they are sent out to CR subscribers, who are not any more representative of the general car-buying public than TDIClub's members) and are based on voluntary self-reporting. Now, these results could be a component of comprehensive reliability data, that also included raw repair data from auto manufacturers, but on their own, they are not very useful to me.

All I need to know is that I've loved very VW I've owned, and my TDI is the best so far.

nicklockard · Dec 5, 2004

Don't buy the Tdi! It's horrible!!!

***Just doing my part to keep prices down for us Tdi lovers***

Snicker snicker....

2003_TDI · Dec 5, 2004

***Just doing my part to keep prices down for us Tdi lovers***

A few weeks ago I stopped at the post office so my wife could send her father some of his favorite old LPs. I waited in the car with it running right next to a Ford Excursion. A rather large woman with a cigarette haging out of her mouth climbs in and I can hear her tell her friend/mother/cousin sitting in the passenger side-

"Phew that there Volkswagen stinks!"

I chuckled to myself...Keep thinking that lady

as I rolled the back windows down so I could get a stronger wiff!

IndigoBlueWagon · Dec 5, 2004

I've owned several VWs and several Toyotas, even a couple of Hondas. I think the Japanese are better on reliability, and I guess you can't argue with their durability record, either. However, I've had very few problems with my Jetta, about the same as with my '92 Camry, and it costs much less to run. And of course it's lots more fun.

If you have a good dealer and you take care of the car, you'll be fine. My experience is that if you actively maintain European cars they are very reliable. If you neglect them they're not. Japanese cars seem to run no matter what. Also, others have said here that the ignition coil problems VW had with the gas engines have skewed the statistics negative.

Cars selection isn't objective, at least not totally. Get what you want. Life's short. If it's an appliance to you, go Japanese.

frugality · Dec 5, 2004

I think the Japanese are better on reliability, and I guess you can't argue with their durability record, either.

As I was driving around tonight, I was thinking about this issue of the Japanese car makers and reliability. I work in the auto industry, designing car interior parts, and from experience I know that the Japanese OEM's tend to do a couple of things: 1) they don't attempt something unless they know there is a very low risk of problems, and 2) they copy other automakers like crazy. Toyota has a reptuation as being one of the most reliable car makers. I haven't worked on a Toyota project myself, but from coworkers I know that Toyota will RARELY do anything unless it's been done before and has been proven out. They will not go out on a limb with a new idea, new material, or new process, for fear of problems that will tarnish their reputation.

VW, on the other hand, is much more innovative. That comes at a price. They risk failure. Those of us who have cleaned our intakes have paid that price to an extent. Toyota and Honda won't get into that fray until they know they can execute it better. That's a bit sleazy in my opinion. They let automakers like VW go out on a limb and be innovative, then the come in late to the game, studying their vehicles, avoiding the mistakes made by VW. Then they look good and Consumer Reports says, "how come Toyota can do what VW couldn't?" Well, they let others do the proving-out that they won't risk.

(I will acknowledge that the Japanese automaker are more innovative in the hybrid realm, however.)

[/rant]

diezelwiezel · Dec 5, 2004

Given that VW has gone into a niche area of automotive technology that few others care to venture or even want to think about, who cares what Consumers Report thinks. They never even compare the VW TDI's to another equal, but instead put it up against hybrid vehicles and then complain about the shortcomings of the vehicle, excessive emmissions, etc..

If owning a vehicle that requires a little more care than the average Consumers Report "Best Buy", do not buy a VW as these vehicles are not for the faint of heart. Goodluck Veedubing.

TornadoRed · Dec 5, 2004

If you drive a lot of miles, then a TDI is the perfect car.

If you don't drive that much, then there are lots of cars to choose from.

tjl · Dec 5, 2004

Consumer Reports reviews and rates appliances. Even when they rate cars, they rate them as 'appliances'. If a car to you is an appliance, then a VW isn't generally a very good one.

Their reviews of Golf TDI, various Jettas including a TDI, and New Beetles have been positive. Only the reliability survey scores have been poor (which disqualifies them from recommendation by CR).

For an "ordinary" car buyer who does not frequent these forums and depends on a VW dealer for service and repair, the reliability and dealer troubles compared to a Toyota or Honda may well be a big problem. I wonder how many sludged 1.8T engines were dealer maintained with cheap bulk conventional oil instead of the recommended synthetic 5W-40 oil? How about PD-TDI engines that were filled with non-VW 505.01 rated oil when taken to dealers for oil changes?

tjl · Dec 5, 2004

A few weeks ago I stopped at the post office so my wife could send her father some of his favorite old LPs. I waited in the car with it running right next to a Ford Excursion. A rather large woman with a cigarette haging out of her mouth climbs in and I can hear her tell her friend/mother/cousin sitting in the passenger side-

"Phew that there Volkswagen stinks!"

Compared to secondhand cigarette smoke?

Gazoo · Dec 5, 2004

Consumer reports is a crock.

Their sampling size is tiny and very skewed by whom actually returns their surveys.

Not scientific or accurate by a long shot.

They only survey THEIR subscriber base, which is biased by the type of person that subscribes to their mag.

Only certain kinds of people complete and return surveys, and others don't. This adds a further bias, as the small group of CR subscribers is skewed even further by the smaller subset that actually returns the surveys.

It's also very likely that the European cars are under-represented and they are less likely to be owned by the people that are surveyed..therefore fewer cars = problems seem more prevalent.

CR does not search for a scientific, cross sectional, representational group of people to accurately predict reliability - they pretty much use the tiny sample they get.

some more detailed info:

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

rotarykid · Dec 5, 2004

I think the Japanese are better on reliability, and I guess you can't argue with their durability record, either.

Click to expand...

As I was driving around tonight, I was thinking about this issue of the Japanese car makers and reliability. I work in the auto industry, designing car interior parts, and from experience I know that the Japanese OEM's tend to do a couple of things: 1) they don't attempt something unless they know there is a very low risk of problems, and 2) they copy other automakers like crazy. Toyota has a reptuation as being one of the most reliable car makers. I haven't worked on a Toyota project myself, but from coworkers I know that Toyota will RARELY do anything unless it's been done before and has been proven out. They will not go out on a limb with a new idea, new material, or new process, for fear of problems that will tarnish their reputation.

VW, on the other hand, is much more innovative. That comes at a price. They risk failure. Those of us who have cleaned our intakes have paid that price to an extent. Toyota and Honda won't get into that fray until they know they can execute it better. That's a bit sleazy in my opinion. They let automakers like VW go out on a limb and be innovative, then the come in late to the game, studying their vehicles, avoiding the mistakes made by VW. Then they look good and Consumer Reports says, "how come Toyota can do what VW couldn't?" Well, they let others do the proving-out that they won't risk.

(I will acknowledge that the Japanese automaker are more innovative in the hybrid realm, however.)

[/rant]

A little info I thought I'd add , ;

All of the auto makers sold diesel power in a wide range of their vehicles in the early eighties . Toyota had the same head gasket trouble that all the other auto makers had on their D & TD engines . Honda is the only Jap. car maker that didn't get into the diesel fray back then . Having owned a wide range of makes & models from Jap. & German car maker over the years , VW is the only one that ever cought on in the US . But many of the othes were good models , but getting parts back then for anything other than a VW diesel ould be a nightmare . I speak from experience on this .

Today as many years ago all car makers have a wide range of diesel power that could be brought to the US market if they wanted to risk it .

David

Philip · Dec 5, 2004

If the japanese had a diesel, VW would be in trouble! (lol)

my 2004 jetta wagon has been great, accept for what looks like a messed up transmission sensor, the rest of the car has been perfect. Perform the regular maintinance and your good to go.

from 1999-2002, VW had major problems. Get a newer one (2003,2004,2005) and they are good cars. If you lease one and its cursed, take it back and get another one. There is a lemon law that applies to VW like any other car company.

TornadoRed · Dec 5, 2004

If you lease one and its cursed, take it back and get another one.

If a lease makes sense for you, then a TDI doesn't. Simply put, if you drive a lot of miles, then you should BUY a TDI. Not lease one.

cage · Dec 6, 2004

One other point about Consumer Reports. I'd guess of that small number of people with european cars, I'll bet a far greater percentage of people WITH problems bother sending their surveys in compared to people without problems.
Also on the reliability/reputation comments,,, Thats why Mercedes pulled diesels out of the US for the past few years. They had the same clogging / reliability / drivability issues that we have with out TDI's. Since it was leaving such a sour taste in customers mouths as well as affecting their reputation they pulled all US diesel's. It wasn't 'til this year that they reintroduced them.

MayorDJQ · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

My only regret is getting a Brazilian Golf. Had I found this site before I bought my car, I'd have gone with a Jetta instead. The Brazilian made cars tend to be a little more troublesome.

xsfmed · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

In the 2 years I've owned my golf, I haven't had any major problems (except dealership prices, until i learned how to do the oil changes, etc.) I think it would be interesting to do a survey on this site as to the model, year and number of problems encountered - then we'd have a pretty good cross section of TDI issues.

jddaigle · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

My only regret is getting a Brazilian Golf. Had I found this site before I bought my car, I'd have gone with a Jetta instead. The Brazilian made cars tend to be a little more troublesome.

I'm sorry, I just have to respond when I see this type of post.

Do you have data that state specifically that Golfs built in Curitaba (Brazil) have more problems per vehicle than a Jetta sedan built in Puebla (Mexico) or a Jetta Wagon built in Wolfsburg (Germany)?

A lot of people assume that because a car is assembled in Mexico or Brazil, it must be inferior in some way to the cars assembled in Germany. I know of no proof of this and I ask every time I see a post making this claim.

Building cars is a global process. The engine in my Golf was made in the Czech Republic, the transmission in Poland, and the car was assembled in Brazil. The engine, transmission, and other systems all have component parts made in still other countries. VW standardizes its assembly processes across all factories. The robots are the same. The workers receive the same training.

I would be willing to place a bet of US$20 (not much, but don't mistake the dollar amount for my opinion of my chances) that there are no statistically relevant differences in the number of defects per vehicle between the Puebla, Curitaba, and Wolfsburg plants. Any takers?

DareDiesel · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$

TDI in Peekskill · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

I one were to research the purchase of (insert name of vehicle here) by viewing the web page and forums of (insert name of vehicle here)one would never buy (insert name of vehicle here). Because statisticaly folks who contribute to the forums either have problems or are complete nuts about their vehicles. Crazy fastidious, anal about the tires, oil and fuel. Diatribes against dealers and mechanics abound. One would be equally confounded by overly researching periodical as well. Solution??? Go test drive and fall in love and buy--just like you found your wife--or husband. Cars are not forever. Hopefully not like your wife--or husband--eventually you will dump it and get another one.
Trust yourself!!!

DickSilver · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

Just for accuracy, the name of the Brazilian city is spelled "Curitiba."

doc_m · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

from 1999-2002, VW had major problems. Get a newer one. it all depends on the car i have a 2000 jetta tdi and have had no major problems just a couple warentee things no biggie, like someone just said test drive it if you like it get it if you don't, don't buy it. leaving up to someones opinion if YOU should buy something or not leaves alot of responsibility on everyone and you just go along with it.. what if the first post was ah i looove thhis car buy 3.....

twob4s · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

I am not sure why so many people on this website would jump on the bandwagon if a Japanese car company would offer a diesel.

First off, last I ever worked on an older Japanese car, I found parts insanely expensive and hard to find. This is assuming that the car is not a rust bucket to be hauled in for scrap. My 87 Scirocco is heavily salted annually in a northern climate and hardley has any rust. I dont know if I even see many 87 Japanese cars around here.

Secondly, it is VW that is on the forefront of bringing us automotive innovation. Case in point, the TDI. So the Japanese have brought us Hybrids.....who would want to drive one of these boring cars? Besides they are not the answer to getting us off of oil. Plus, why do people with Hybrids drive soooooo slooooooow? I frequently blow by them in my B4 TDI.

Nobody will every convince me that any Japanese car company builds better engines or more solid car bodies than VW.

Thunderstruck · Dec 6, 2004

Re: Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetl

I have to agree 110% with Case. If you're happy with a car, you tell a couple of friends. If you're unhappy, you tell everyone that will listen. That's true of CU as well. I was a member, and never returned the survey. Of course, at the time I had an F150 that had no problems. 9 months later, and I'm STILL battling squeaks and rattles on my NB. It's a great engine, and a fun car to drive, but the fit and finish need to improve if I'm going to buy another one. It's not an unrealistic expectation that all the parts will be screwed down tight and not come loose in a month after you buy a car.
When I walk into the service department, they know me by name and that's a pretty sad comment.

Consumer Reports bashes Jetta, Golf, New Beetle!

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