NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

quadrun1

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Location
Fairfield County, CT
TDI
past: 2013 Passat TDI SE 6M, 2010 Jetta TDI DSG
A VW dealer offered $16.5k for my 2010 Jetta TDI sedan w/DSG (32000 miles), and I filled out info online for a "Black Book" value, it came back as $17k. This takes into consideration that I have purchased the VW platinum 7yr/100k extended warranty.

I'd be losing too much on a trade, so I will keep the car.... I really like this car! But if the HPFP quits, or I get a frozen intercooler, I'll have to revisit the idea of a trade-in...
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Any word on a single failure of the HPFP associated with the 2012 passat TDI with the pump number ending in "E" instead of the "A" version in jetta's, golfs, JSW's and A3 Audi's?
 

barshnik

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2013 Passat SE w/roof, nav
In this article, for the first time, I saw an answer to a question I have had for a long time. Right before the review, it says:

This answers my question - are all biodiesels necessarily the same as far as being lubricity additives? Almost all of the tests (like the Spicer Report) use virgin soy oil based biodiesel.. Most Bio is not made this way. Much commercial (as well as homebrew) biodiesel is made from waste cooking oil, which could be animal or vegetable oil based (probably a mixture). This also means that the lubricity properties of 2% or 5% bio is a bit of an unknown since we don't know the base stock or it's properties. The article uses the terms "
uncertain and unpredictable", which I do not like.

I think that I will stick with commercial lubricity additives.
Have Fun!
Don

Don, the friend of mine who makes bio (I've get a little 3 gallon can every couple of months from him) picks up frying oil from 2 Mexican restaurants. I help him sometimes, and the oil is either soy or canola - about 50/50. A friend of ours is a chemist who owns a large lab here in town, and has checked the soy / canola before the process and the finished bio. Chemically, soy and canola are quite similar. Very little bio (probably none that is made on a non-commercial basis) uses animal fat as the base. 59k now on my JSW, and still using 1 liter per fill (usually 10 - 12 gallons) so ~ 2%. Feel free to use any additive you want, but I still think any bio will be superior for helping lubricity.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
Okay, here's something to chew on.

The data in the graph below comes from fuel survey information that Chrysler submitted to NHTSA. Apparently at the time of the survey, a significant number of retail pumps were dispensing fuel that did not meet the lubricity spec. of 520. I leave it to the reader to decide whether this matters with respect to VW's CR TDIs.

Of course, past performance is no indication of the future.:rolleyes:

 
Last edited:

atc98002

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Location
Auburn WA
TDI
2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
I was talking with my service advisor today (getting my 10k service on the Tiguan) and asked about their experience with any pump failures. To his knowledge, there have been none at this particular dealer. I have ten years experience with this dealership. They know me well and have always been up front with me from day one.

With so few reported failures in Washington state, and our mandatory 2% BioDiesel at the pump, I really am becoming more convinced that it's the US fuel quality, specificly lubricity, that is the leading cause of the failures.

Based on what I've seen so far, I still think I'll be comfortable trading my Tig for a new TDI Tuguan as soon as they become available.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
You may want to ask someone in the parts department. At the dealer I used to go to, I asked the writer if they had any HPFP failures and was told they didn't have any. I asked a parts guy and he told me they had done several.
 

DasTeknoViking

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Location
Palatine IL
TDI
B4 TDi, A4 R32
In 2002 when Acura had a 100% failure rate on 01-03 CL 00-03 TL transmissions I was told to keep my yap shut just in case the media came in asking about it.... Our service advisors would bluntly tell people they never seen a trans fail. Do you really want to spread panic around ? Resale values of those cars tanked thanks to the transmission issues.

Take your dealers info with a grain of salt.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
You may want to ask someone in the parts department. At the dealer I used to go to, I asked the writer if they had any HPFP failures and was told they didn't have any. I asked a parts guy and he told me they had done several.

I remember being told in Sept 2010 that dealers had already done "several", both 2009's and 2010's. :confused:
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
The dealer I bought my car from had no problem telling me that early on they had 3-4 but hadn't had any since then.

I've heard nothing since that would lead me to believe that he wasn't honest with me.
 

tdipoet

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Location
hooksett, nh
TDI
'11 Jetta TDI
my dealer service department has replaced a couple, but they were self-admitted gas fills. i think they've been up front with me, because they were interested to hear about the issues.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
The dealer I bought my car from had no problem telling me that early on they had 3-4 but hadn't had any since then.

I've heard nothing since that would lead me to believe that he wasn't honest with me.
Does that defy logic, as the cars accumulate more miles daily, the greater the probability of failures? :confused:
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
Does that defy logic, as the cars accumulate more miles daily, the greater the probability of failures? :confused:
It depends on what the original problem was. Perhaps like noted earlier there was a problem with the coating. Maybe it was a hit and miss thing. Maybe it's been addressed.

If there was a problem with say contamination in the coating process, those would fail. Being that these are mechanical components, even under the very best scenario, some would fail.

Maybe there will be a large rash of them that start to fail for some reason.

I have no reason to not believe the service manager when he told me that they had 3-4 early on and none since then. I've known him for 25 years. We both were hired at this dealership within a week or so of each other. I'm no longer there but he still is.
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
My dealer (VW of Garden Grove, CA) told me they have had four.......all 2009 MY and nothing for close to a year. Three were related to gasoline and the fourth of undetermined causes.

I'm leaning toward the problem being parts not properly coated or cured. We'll see.
 

birkie

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Location
Syracuse, NY
TDI
'13 jetta wagon, red
Ford just posted a response;
Nice. Some interesting quotes from Ford about their own vehicles:

As described on Page 9 of the 2009 model year Diesel Supplement guide, a water in fuel warning light will illuminate in the instrument cluster when the ignition is turned to start (as part of the light function check) and when the Horizontal Fuel Condltioner Module (HFCM) has a certain quantity of water in it ... It also states that the water in fuel warning light will come on when approximately 0.13-0.16 pints (60-75 ml) of water accumulates in the module, and that if the water volume is allowed to exceed this level, the water may be passed through to the engine and may cause fuel injection equipment damage. The secondary fuel filter is capable of collecting an additional 50ml of water until the filter saturates.
Also, beginning with the 2011 model year, the B.7l engine is equipped with a low fuel pressure detection system which may display "lOW FUEL PRESSURE" in the message center display in the instrument cluster
The HPFP used on 2011 and 2012 model year peer vehicles with the 6.7L diesel engine is a Bosch Model Number CP4.2.
...
The durability specification for the HPFP in the peer vehicles is the same as the durability specification for the diesel engine assembly in the peer vehicles, which is 10 years or 250,000 miles, whichever occurs first.
Ford notes that it was unable to locate information pertaining to material composition and specifications of HPFP drivetrain components. Ford purchases the HPFP as a "black box" assembly and suppliers typically do not provide the material composition and material specifications for internal HPFP components such as the drivetrain components (e.g., plunger, plunger base, shoe, foot, rider, roller, roller shoe, cam).
Ford has several diesel and biodiesel test fuel specifications, and two of these diesel fuel specifications that relate to low lubricity; XE-M4CX709-B - Worldwide Diesel Engine Durability, Poor Lubricity Low Viscosity, and XE-M4CX749-A - Worldwide Worse Case Lubricity Marginal Viscosity, are provided in Appendix R with a request for confidentiality under separate cover to the agency's Office of the Chief Counsel pursuant to 49 CFR Part 512
Ford is not able to provide substantiated assessments of the amounts of gasoline contamination required to produce various effects on engine performance and driveability symptoms. However, based on our engineering judgment, it is likely that the engines used in Ford vehicles would not immediately stall without warning.
During development of the 6.7L engine, Ford further addressed the fisk of low lubricity fuel by specifying that HPFPs include a "wear package" that the supplier had developed fOf pumps that were intended for use in markets where low lubricity fuel was known to be a concern. Additionally, the fuel system on the peer vehicles is a "return" type system that returns some of the fuel not used by the injectors to a point in the system upstream of the filters. This feature provides additional filtering of fuel that may be contaminated.
 

eb2143

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
None
Okay, here's something to chew on.

The data in the graph below comes from fuel survey information that Chrysler submitted to NHTSA. Apparently at the time of the survey, a significant number of retail pumps were dispensing fuel that did not meet the lubricity spec. of 520. I leave it to the reader to decide whether this matters with respect to VW's CR TDIs.

Of course, past performance is no indication of the future.:rolleyes:

Wow, thanks for finding and sharing.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
I've added the Canadian survey data to the graph. At least in this survey, the lubricity of Canadian fuel looks looks worse than US fuel.:eek:

This fuel survey data is not much different than the data from the report referenced in my post 2586 and shown again in the table below.



 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
Here's average lubricity HFRR micron wear scar data from the survey for the European countries that were included in the survey. Note how much better, in general, the lubricity of diesel fuel in these countries are than the US.

Austria Benelux Czech Rep Denmark Finland France Germany Greece Hungary Ireland Italy Lithuania
.. 252 ... 270 ....... 292 ........ 293 .... 350 .... 242 ....226 .... 299 .... 230 .....356 ... 294 .. 311




Norway Poland Portugal Romania Spain Sweden Switzerland ..UK ..Ukraine Russia
....241... 272 ... 224 ...... 237 .... 325 ...264 ......... 408 .... 326 ....411... 473
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Here's average lubricity HFRR micron wear scar data from the survey for the European countries that were included in the survey. Note how much better, in general, the lubricity of diesel fuel in these countries are than the US.

Austria Benelux Czech Rep Denmark Finland France Germany Greece Hungary Ireland Italy Lithuania
.. 252 ... 270 ....... 292 ........ 293 .... 350 .... 242 ....226 .... 299 .... 230 .....356 ... 294 .. 311






Norway Poland Portugal Romania Spain Sweden Switzerland ..UK ..Ukraine Russia
....241... 272 ... 224 ...... 237 .... 325 ...264 ......... 408 .... 326 ....411... 473


In other words, we here in America should be aiming for 300 micron or less wear scar, not 460, or 420, or under 400.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
In other words, we here in America should be aiming for 300 micron or less wear scar, not 460, or 420, or under 400.
Yep, I agree. I believe that EU countries adopted % bio use targets years ago and that current targets are in excess of 5%. So, that's likely the reason for the very low wear scar numbers in the 2008 survey data and for no apparent HPFP issues in the EU.
 

Trooper81

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2001
Location
Ontario Canada
TDI
2000 New Beetle, 2011 Touareg TDI
Here's average lubricity HFRR micron wear scar data from the survey for the European countries that were included in the survey. Note how much better, in general, the lubricity of diesel fuel in these countries are than the US.

Austria Benelux Czech Rep Denmark Finland France Germany Greece Hungary Ireland Italy Lithuania
.. 252 ... 270 ....... 292 ........ 293 .... 350 .... 242 ....226 .... 299 .... 230 .....356 ... 294 .. 311



Norway Poland Portugal Romania Spain Sweden Switzerland ..UK ..Ukraine Russia

....241... 272 ... 224 ...... 237 .... 325 ...264 ......... 408 .... 326 ....411... 473

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^says it all
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
Here's another other key point with respect to the Fuel Survey: THE MAXIMUM LUBRICITY of the samples for European countries shown in Red below is generally less than the average lubricity in the US (373) and Canadian (426) fuel samples.

Can any coating on the current US pumps overcome the significant difference in lubricity between US and European fuel with respect to HPFP reliability and life.;)

Austria Benelux Czech Rep Denmark Finland France Germany Greece Hungary Ireland Italy Lithuania
.. 252 ... 270 ....... 292 ........ 293 .... 350 .... 242 ....226 .... 299 .... 230 .....356 ... 294 .. 311
.. 405 ... 351 ....... 300 ........ 316 .... 415 .... 324 ....394 .... 341 .... 230 .....406 ... 417 .. 311

Norway Poland Portugal Romania Spain Sweden Switzerland ..UK ..Ukraine Russia
....241... 272 ... 224 ...... 237 .... 325 ...264 ......... 408 .... 326 ....411... 473
....279... 416 ... 253 ...... 257 .... 458 ...301 ......... 479 .... 424 ....471... 655
 
Top