99.5 golf TDI 230000 KM.First start in the morning is a nightmare.It takes a lot of cranking to start the car with horrible unburnt diesel smell and smoke and shuddering.After it warms up it starts perfect unless it sits for a 3-4 hours. Glow plugs tested,they are good.GP harness is good.Coolant temp sensor replaced,when unpluged glow plugs stay on for long time and car starts O.K. with less smoke and smell but with some shuddering.There are no codes.Timing was adjusted recently after cylindar head was replaced due to mess caused by broken TB tensioner.Piston and injector #4 were replaced with used parts.Could these be caused by GP relay and what are the symptoms of failed Glow Plug Relay?Could it be bad replaced injector and what are the symptoms of that.I run a bottle of LM injector cleaner directly with no improvements.Intake was cleaned.This was not happening prior to having to replace the cylindar head and camshaft.Compression tested and it is normal..I've read a couple of forums where people had the same issue but the treads are all dead with the problem not being resolved.PLEASE HELP
PLEASE HELP this is driving me crazy
- Thread starter sask tdi
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99.5 golf TDI 230000 KM.First start in the morning is a nightmare.It takes a lot of cranking to start the car with horrible unburnt diesel smell and smoke and shuddering.After it warms up it starts perfect unless it sits for a 3-4 hours. Glow plugs tested,they are good.GP harness is good.Coolant temp sensor replaced,when unpluged glow plugs stay on for long time and car starts O.K. with less smoke and smell but with some shuddering.There are no codes.Timing was adjusted recently after cylindar head was replaced due to mess caused by broken TB tensioner.Piston and injector #4 were replaced with used parts.Could these be caused by GP relay and what are the symptoms of failed Glow Plug Relay?Could it be bad replaced injector and what are the symptoms of that.I run a bottle of LM injector cleaner directly with no improvements.Intake was cleaned.This was not happening prior to having to replace the cylindar head and camshaft.Compression tested and it is normal..I've read a couple of forums where people had the same issue but the treads are all dead with the problem not being resolved.PLEASE HELP
Seatman
Top Post Dawg
Hi bud, have you been through the trouble shooter for starting problems?
http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-8.html#b
http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-8.html#b
I spent lots of time reading too many posts.Some of them were having the same problem but looks like once they fixed it forgot to put in their 5 cents.I'm probably going to put in new GP relay and injector nozzles
You'll be wasting your money. If it starts OK with the CTS unplugged, then the GP relay is working. Unplugging the CTS not only increases glow time, but also puts the cold timing advance to maximum. That second part is the part you should be interested in. Your nozzles could be faulty but it should still start OK.
Your problem is with timing, compression, or fuel delivery. How sure are you about the veracity of your compression readings? Try a different gauge on your engine, or try your gauge on another TDI. Any difference in either test calls the gauge into question. You say the timing was adjusted. Was that done using the correct procedure, using VCDS or equivalent, with a warm engine? You can't time these "by ear" or by the seat of the pants, like some people used to think they could do with older mechanical-injected diesels. Check the pump timing with VCDS as the car is now. If the pump timing is too retarded, it will be hard to start. Incorrect cam timing can do the same.
Was the correct procedure used for timing the cam? Need the cam locking plate, put engine to #1 TDC, break sprocket loose from taper fit on cam, lock cam just forward of TDC (just touching cam locking plate on forward side), make sure IP sprocket bolts are loose and sprocket moves freely of IP shaft, get cam sprocket almost fully back into position but cam bolt still loose, tension belt to correct setting, torque cam bolt using a counterhold tool to 45 ftlb, tighten pump sprocket bolts, remove locking tools, rotate crank 720 degrees, recheck everything. Did all that, exactly to a T?? OK, now you can set pump timing with VCDS. Set to advanced side of range, between the upper two lines, shooting for somewhere between 55 and 65 most of the time. If the compression and fuel system are OK, it will now start perfectly.
Check fuel restriction also. Is the IP leaking and losing prime? That will cause a hard start, though generally in those cases unpluggung the CTS will not help, which makes me lean towards timing or compression. Is the fuel filter or tank pickup plugged? That will make it start hard and run poorly. We have made a video about this since we see so many cars with fuel restriction issues; this takes you through the steps of checking and diagnosing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRMTEAKsScE
Have you checked your pump case pressure relief valve? Can also cause hard starts and other running/driveability issues. See where it is and how to know if it's OK or not here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h2WZxQ08lQ
Hard first start
Couple of things.The timing was adjusted by well respected local mechanic who works only on Audis and VWs.He also said that he set the timing a bit advanced for easer winter starts(we sometimes get
-40Celsius here in January).Compression test was done by friend of mine who is experienced heavy equipment mechanic working on diesels most of the time.The mileage is excelent.After that hard first start engine starts perfectly every time except if it it sits for 4-5 hours.That first start is accompanied with clouds of smoke wich has very strong smell of unburnt diesel.Could a leaky injector cause this?There is apsolutely no leaks on the IP,but sometimes I can smell diesel from the engine compartment altough no visible leaks.Also once I manage to start the car and it is still smoking and shuddering,if I press the accelerator then it runs very hard and there is a cliking noise heard from under the dash where all the relays are located.This happens on nice warm day too.Thanks in advance
I watched your videos and I realy like them.I'm glad someone experienced answered my question and thanks for that.
Couple of things.The timing was adjusted by well respected local mechanic who works only on Audis and VWs.He also said that he set the timing a bit advanced for easer winter starts(we sometimes get
-40Celsius here in January).Compression test was done by friend of mine who is experienced heavy equipment mechanic working on diesels most of the time.The mileage is excelent.After that hard first start engine starts perfectly every time except if it it sits for 4-5 hours.That first start is accompanied with clouds of smoke wich has very strong smell of unburnt diesel.Could a leaky injector cause this?There is apsolutely no leaks on the IP,but sometimes I can smell diesel from the engine compartment altough no visible leaks.
Also once I manage to start the car and it is still smoking and shuddering,if I press the accelerator then it runs very hard and there is a cliking noise heard from under the dash where all the relays are located.This happens on nice warm day too.Thanks in advance
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Corsair
Veteran Member
my 0.02:
[1] Many others on here whose expertise is far greater than my own- listen to them first!
[2] (my logic here...) If a single injector had a problem, seems to me that the engine would start reliably, but perhaps with a consistent roughness etc. My gut feel is that there seems to be some issue with cam timing or fuel injection timing, which puts it right on the edge of injection window when cold, but improved enough when the engine is warm.
The engine starts OK when engine is warm, but how does the car drive ? Does it seem low on power, or any new "personality" since the head work & put back together ?
I'll look forward to following this thread and what is the eventual outcome. Best of luck in your pursuits.
[1] Many others on here whose expertise is far greater than my own- listen to them first!
[2] (my logic here...) If a single injector had a problem, seems to me that the engine would start reliably, but perhaps with a consistent roughness etc. My gut feel is that there seems to be some issue with cam timing or fuel injection timing, which puts it right on the edge of injection window when cold, but improved enough when the engine is warm.
The engine starts OK when engine is warm, but how does the car drive ? Does it seem low on power, or any new "personality" since the head work & put back together ?
I'll look forward to following this thread and what is the eventual outcome. Best of luck in your pursuits.
The car drives just fine once it warms up.I use this wehicle for work and I do about 15 stops per day.Every start is just perfect after the first one,it feels effortless.But if it sits for 4-5 hours it will start but with smoke and shuddering.
Ive got the same excat problem(i posted in the ALH sec, no start 50 degrees), will look forward to results too!!
After talking to the former owner, in my case, it sounds like my hard start prob started after the IP was replaced. And the cold weather has exagerated the problem.
Will be watchin
After talking to the former owner, in my case, it sounds like my hard start prob started after the IP was replaced. And the cold weather has exagerated the problem.
Will be watchin
MethylEster
Veteran Member
Sask TDI,
Had exactly the same problems as what you're describing. And it gets to -40C here in Minnesota as well. The problem all stemmed from a worn out starter motor not being able to spin the engine at >250 rpm. The OEM computer does not start delivering fuel until ~>250 rpm. Once I replaced my starter all these symptoms disappeared.
Perhaps your new head raised the compression up to new car standards and your old started just can't buck the higher pressures? Just a thought.
To further insure I did not have starting problems in the cold depths of winter, I chose to get chipped whereby the <250 rpm fueling limitation was removed. Never looked back since.
Had exactly the same problems as what you're describing. And it gets to -40C here in Minnesota as well. The problem all stemmed from a worn out starter motor not being able to spin the engine at >250 rpm. The OEM computer does not start delivering fuel until ~>250 rpm. Once I replaced my starter all these symptoms disappeared.
Perhaps your new head raised the compression up to new car standards and your old started just can't buck the higher pressures? Just a thought.
To further insure I did not have starting problems in the cold depths of winter, I chose to get chipped whereby the <250 rpm fueling limitation was removed. Never looked back since.
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
If an ALH isn't starting in 50*F weather, something is seriously wrong.
I would say that at least 75% of all starting issues are caused by incorrect injection pump timing and/or camshaft timing.
cog
Veteran Member
i had exactly the same problem and my timing was setup by a professional . but when i checked it was way too advanced and gave white smoke on startup. and too ages to turn over. once started it drove fine and started fist time while warm .
check your timing in vagcom and find out where it is only take 2 minutes then take it from there , im guessing its too far advanced
and if you do it yourself its easy but the timing is very small movements indeed ,
check your timing in vagcom and find out where it is only take 2 minutes then take it from there , im guessing its too far advanced
and if you do it yourself its easy but the timing is very small movements indeed ,
Thanks everyone for trying to help.
Went to talk to mechanic that adjusted timing and he said the did hundreds of tdi's like that and never had complaint.I dont have the clear fuel hose so I cant check for bubbles,but I'm going to replace fuel filter.There is still presence of diesel fuel smell from engine compartment but not all the time.And I checked again,there is no fuel leak anywhere.Also I dont have a vag-com so I have to pay every time an adjustment is done.Why is there such a difference between that first start and later on when everything seems perfect??
Went to talk to mechanic that adjusted timing and he said the did hundreds of tdi's like that and never had complaint.I dont have the clear fuel hose so I cant check for bubbles,but I'm going to replace fuel filter.There is still presence of diesel fuel smell from engine compartment but not all the time.And I checked again,there is no fuel leak anywhere.Also I dont have a vag-com so I have to pay every time an adjustment is done.Why is there such a difference between that first start and later on when everything seems perfect??
Austin97TDI
Well-known member
jettawreck
Top Post Dawg
There is a vast difference in a "cold" start vs warm start with compression ignition (diesel). I suspect you have a timing issue regardless with the mechanics prior history.
How fast does the engine spin over when cold?? Like Methel said, if it doesn't spin fast enough it ain't going to start, at least not quickly. I think you can monitor cranking speed w/VCDS. It has to whirl over fast enough to satisfy the ECU and fast enough to compress/ignite the fuel mix. If it labors when cranking thats a clue.
The other common issue is an air leak. It usually never does leak fuel. IP seal or T fitting o-rings on fuel filter allow air in and fuel slides back to the tank pulling it out of the IP. This takes a while, long enough for the engine to become "cold". Warm starts are fine because it hasn't had time to loose "prime". Takes a lot of cranking to pull it back into the IP. Since you get a lot of smoke upon startup I don't think this is the primary issue.
Austin97TDI
Well-known member
If it were a timing issue wouldnt it smoke all the time? or have loss of power? Like i said earlier mine does the same thing...I have replaced the GP relay, Glow plugs, and checked the harness and all seem to be working could it be the coolant temp sensor? I ordered a fuel filter and am going to change that tomorrow...but im having the same issues as sask tdi..would like to purchase or find someone in my area with a vag-com so i dont have to pay out the arse to check the timing..my father who is the original owner of the car seems to thing its a leaky injector i say nay...but this problem is super frustrating!!
jettawreck
Top Post Dawg
No. The timing the engine starts on isn't the same as it runs on. Sounds impossible? No, it starts on the mechanical timing setting, but once running the electronics take over and is changed as need be, within a range. So, if the static (mechanical) timing is off too far starting may be difficult, yet it may run OK after starting. Simple, huh?
I'm no good at the explainations, so this is not 100% correct and the condensed version.
sask- get ur mechanic to show u the timing reading on the computer screen ; if he doesn't want to-then kindly ask for ur money back
these guys know what there talking about!
I ve had this problem since I've got my car 3 months ago, got worse with the cold, didn't throw parts at it- but got a VAG COM guy and FIXED the problem.
my ip was replaced by a reptuable shop, but timing was retarded (click on my name to get my other post), then I heard they never had the software
Thanks TDI Club! and Pedro!
these guys know what there talking about!
I ve had this problem since I've got my car 3 months ago, got worse with the cold, didn't throw parts at it- but got a VAG COM guy and FIXED the problem.
my ip was replaced by a reptuable shop, but timing was retarded (click on my name to get my other post), then I heard they never had the software
Thanks TDI Club! and Pedro!
Austin97TDI
Well-known member
No. The timing the engine starts on isn't the same as it runs on. Sounds impossible? No, it starts on the mechanical timing setting, but once running the electronics take over and is changed as need be, within a range. So, if the static (mechanical) timing is off too far starting may be difficult, yet it may run OK after starting. Simple, huh?
I'm no good at the explainations, so this is not 100% correct and the condensed version.
ok, no u did a great job of explaining...thanks a bunch i have a VW mechanic looking at it next weekend hopefully he can fix it for me...i have no VAGCOM nor do i know someone with one or i would check it...but the VW mechanic is a family friend so it will be cheap haha..Thanks again!!
flatlanded
Veteran Member
I have VCDS for your ALH. Who did you take your car to?
It does sound like a timing issue or a fuel issue. When you go out first thing in the morning to start it, maybe get someone to start the car while you watch the fuel lines. See if there's any air in the lines.
I'm around Regina all weekend and have a garage (stupid snow). Let me know if I can help.
It does sound like a timing issue or a fuel issue. When you go out first thing in the morning to start it, maybe get someone to start the car while you watch the fuel lines. See if there's any air in the lines.
I'm around Regina all weekend and have a garage (stupid snow). Let me know if I can help.
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I took it to Herman at Performance.Let me know if you have some time to check it with VCDS.I love this site
when I unplug coolant temp sensor it starts easy with littlle bit of shuddering and less smoke
flatlanded
Veteran Member
It's starting to sound like you have the 99.5 hot start issue: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=134622 read Hermtdi's post. Basically it's a hot start issue that's common with the 99.5s. The starter doesn't get up to the right RPM which then causes the engine not to start. Only a remap will fix that if that is the case.
I replied to your PM, hopefully it's something we can figure out.
I replied to your PM, hopefully it's something we can figure out.
Actually I have no trouble with warm start at all,the problem is with first cold start in the morning
Austin97TDI
Well-known member
same here....
flatlanded
Veteran Member
That's very strange then if the CTS made a difference when unplugged. You've replaced it, your glowplugs are fine, and there's no codes which is weird.
I'm still thinking the pump is losing prime or the timing's out enough to make a difference. However the fact that it's a 99.5 still makes me think starter.
We'll have to get vag-com hooked up to it this weekend so we can rule out timing.
I'm still thinking the pump is losing prime or the timing's out enough to make a difference. However the fact that it's a 99.5 still makes me think starter.
We'll have to get vag-com hooked up to it this weekend so we can rule out timing.
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
Check the RPM that you are getting on the first start of the day. It should be very reliably over 200 rpm. I like to see more than 250 rpm. Don't try to read this on your tach, use a digital device, VCDS or Scangauge (distant second). And get the FIRST start, not the second.
If you are getting the RPM, then it is most likely the timing. Essentially I will take no one's word for the timing. I want to verify it myself, though I will grudgingly take a screenshot. Too often this is the problem. Way too often.
These two probably account for more than 95% of all cold first start hard starting issues.
The first start of the day can also be unreliable fuel delivery. But the smell of fuel in the exhaust can help rule this out. So can rigging a positive pressure fuel feed.
If your injectors are streaming instead of atomizing, then you can still get the fuel in the exhaust, and have problems starting. I would expect this to show up with injector balance issues in block 13, though. Any input on this?
If you are getting the RPM, then it is most likely the timing. Essentially I will take no one's word for the timing. I want to verify it myself, though I will grudgingly take a screenshot. Too often this is the problem. Way too often.
These two probably account for more than 95% of all cold first start hard starting issues.
The first start of the day can also be unreliable fuel delivery. But the smell of fuel in the exhaust can help rule this out. So can rigging a positive pressure fuel feed.
If your injectors are streaming instead of atomizing, then you can still get the fuel in the exhaust, and have problems starting. I would expect this to show up with injector balance issues in block 13, though. Any input on this?
Will check it with my neighbors VAG-COM this weekend.I will post the results
flatlanded
Veteran Member
Had a look at his car tonight. Timings fine, and block 13 looks good. Found something interesting with the glowplugs however.
Glowplugs have 0 for a duration. I tried to adjust it but no joy. With the CTS unplugged he says they turn on.
Possible relay problem? Any ideas?
Glowplugs have 0 for a duration. I tried to adjust it but no joy. With the CTS unplugged he says they turn on.
Possible relay problem? Any ideas?
DanG144
Top Post Dawg
With the engine temperature at 87C, isn't that what you would expect?
I think you have to read the glow plug duration time with the engine cold.
What value did you leave in the gp's?
Any idea what his starter RPM is?
I think you have to read the glow plug duration time with the engine cold.
What value did you leave in the gp's?
Any idea what his starter RPM is?