Opt-Out Intensive Settlement Process

Lightflyer1

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That number probably comes from the total involved in the class vs those who opted out. If you didn't "opt out" you were happy with the settlement as it stood. Nothing to do with buyback, fix or do nothing people. There are those who choose to do nothing and get nothing.
 

fredthe

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^^^^
Yep, I read that as only 0.6% of the class opted out (presumably to sue on their own.)

Accepting the settlement is not the same as participating in the settlement (the 85% target)
 

TDIforDays

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Like other said, if you did not object, in court's eyes, you are accepting the settlement. That is where 0.6% came from. You don't have to take advantage of the settlement, but if you did not object, you agreed to its terms.
 

ezshift5

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.....so if I am correct - in absorbing the various foregoing posts.................

The 85 per cent has been met AND

the final number of TDI buyback/fix/nada is...................(what?)

ez sends on this sunny - if inordinately liberal - day here on der left coast.
 

phh-dfw

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Am not asking WHAT you were offered if any of the opt outs have received an offer via their attorneys after the 3/21/18 conference in Judge Breyer's Court, only IF you have received an offer after that date, which would indicate it was a result of that conference.
 

spark143

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TDIforDays,
just curious what you think is a fair number for a 2010 Jetta TDI with 200,000 miles on it. original owner and assuming $20,000 total purchase price. Kbb says $6,300-$9,100. 70% of total purchase price?
 

TDIforDays

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TDIforDays,
just curious what you think is a fair number for a 2010 Jetta TDI with 200,000 miles on it. original owner and assuming $20,000 total purchase price. Kbb says $6,300-$9,100. 70% of total purchase price?
If there was no scandal, your car would be worth $4K right now. VW is giving you over $10K - too lazy to calculate exactly and don't know your options.

You had the car for 8 years and put 200K miles on it... I think VW settlement is very fair.
 

Yukon4Runner

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A very good summary.

You know what convinced me that the settlement was government focused rather than consumer focused?

The sales tax credit for the buy back. Or a lack thereof to be more accurate.

Some quick back of the envelope calculations shows about an extra half billion in states pockets because you don’t get the trade-in value of your vehicle credited against your new vehicle purchase for sales tax purposes.

This made it easier for VW dealers (all they provide is a meeting location and temporary storage for the trade-in) and helped state coffers.

I am an opt-out represented by Heygood, Orr, & Pearson. The main thing Judge Breyer did, in my opinion, is illustrate why the 9th Circuit is the most overturned Circuit in the entire Federal Judiciary.

His display of bias lays the groundwork for appealing any ruling he makes from this point forward for two immediately apparent reasons.

The first is that he COMPLETELY IGNORED the basis of the opt out cases at issue in the 03/21/18 proceedings. The only thing he addressed was pollution. The vast majority of the opt out cases have a more fundamental basis in consumer fraud. One might easily assume from his comments in the transcript that he was of the mindset that the only reason people opted out was to be personally compensated for pollution.

The second is that he failed to give any admonishment to the defendants' legal representatives. Perhaps something along the lines of "Your client agreed to settle each case for the opt in amounts, but because of the dire consequences of these 600 cars running around polluting, to complete your responsibilities, you need to take a hard look at 0.6% of your settlements may cost more, so pony up for the sake of the environment and be glad it is only 0.6% instead of 6% or 60%. That, along with his diatribe brow beating of plaintiffs' legal representatives would have been even handed.

From this point forward, every ruling he makes is subject to appeal due to previously demonstrated bias. I am not an attorney, but ANYONE who went to school on the big bus can easily make such a case without even having to buy or borrow a copy of "Illustrating Bias On The Part Of A Judge For Dummies".

There were three parties wronged... the government through regulatory fraud, society as a whole through pollution, and those that purchased vehicles through consumer fraud. From the beginning, the problem with the class action settlements is the abject and total failure to realize that what is a remedy for one of those three parties is not a remedy for the other two.

Government was made whole through fines. Supposedly society as a whole is going to be made whole by building hydrogen fill stations in California and the defendant's lurching knee jerk move toward electric cars. NEITHER of those addresses consumer fraud. Had he been more demanding instead of having his buddy Robert Mueller (yeah, THAT Robert Mueller) be the "Settlement Master" that acted as the midwife of the mutant mongrel bastardization of justice that is otherwise known as the class action settlement, there would not have had to been opt out cases.
 

spark143

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TDIforDays,
Sorry, I didn't want to put you on the spot. just trying to find out what people thought was a fair deal. I actually bought a 2014 6 speed value Jetta from King kia/Volkswagen in Md. My purchase price was $17,000 + tax/tags and destination charge of $850($19,200 total). Last month I did my buyback car had 91,000 miles. The buyback was $18,856.73 + the good will package $1,000 and the bosch payment I haven't received yet $300($20,156 total buyback). With the loan interest I'm probably even. I didn't expect that much because I used the car for almost 4 years and 90,000 miles. I was just curious what other people felt was fair deal. I think I received a great deal
 

Rico567

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A very good summary.
You know what convinced me that the settlement was government focused rather than consumer focused?
The sales tax credit for the buy back. Or a lack thereof to be more accurate.
Some quick back of the envelope calculations shows about an extra half billion in states pockets because you don’t get the trade-in value of your vehicle credited against your new vehicle purchase for sales tax purposes.
This made it easier for VW dealers (all they provide is a meeting location and temporary storage for the trade-in) and helped state coffers.
The settlement had nothing to do with the states, except for the states signing off on legitimizing the Dieselgatemobiles, whether or not they were bought back, fixed, or driven into the ground. (As far as my last information, 45 of the 50 states did.)
Dieselgate was a Federal matter from the outset; VW violated Federal law, not state law, and the settlement was agreed to in a Federal court.
The states were never obligated to offer trade-in credit, which would presumably only affect those doing the buyback in any case. Nor do I see how any state could be obliged to do so: some states offer this kind of credit, some do not.
As a commenter in another thread remarked, by the provisions of the settlement anyone doing either the buyback or the fix is getting a compensation amount (for VWs like ours, it's $5100, it's more for the 3.0 liter engine cars.) This compensation amount can be seen as an all-purpose amount to deal with such things as sales tax. We are turning our Passat in later this year for the buyback, and we live in a state where we will pay the full sales tax amount (IL, 6.25%) on the new car we buy. Our compensation will more than cover that, and since we have suffered no damage by VW's actions, I don't see that they owe us any more money.
 

BKmetz

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Just to add a bit to what Rico567 is saying.

I registered my 2014 for a buy-back through the VWGoA portal, not at a dealership.

My documentation was uploaded to the VWGoA portal for review, not a dealership.

My confirmation email that all my documentation was correct came back from the VWGoA portal, not a dealership.

The final offer came from VWGoA, not a dealership. The accepted buy-back amount was a straight offer from VWGoA, no sales incentives from the dealership added on.

At the time, the buy-back specialist at the dealership was a contract employee to VWGoA, who traveled to different dealerships around IL, not a dealership employee. We know that's all changed now.

I sold my 2014 back to VWGoA, not the dealership. The dealership was just a location for the transaction to take place, hold the car until VWGoA could pick it up, and transport it to one of the 37 holding sites. After the buy-back specialist inspected the car and took several photos, including the odometer, he placed this sticker on the car. The sticker clearly marks the car as property of VWGoA, not the dealership, and not for sale.


The buy-back specialist was not allowed to use any of the dealership's resources. The guy had to bring his own laptop and printer. He told me wasn't even allowed to use the dealerships WIFI. I was waiting for him to tell me the dealership was going to charge him for using it's power and water when flushing the toilet.

So what's the point of all this? The dealership never had possession of the car. Without possession of the car, the dealership can't offer a trade in allowance on another car. No trade in, no reduction in sales tax on another sale. All the dealership had was VWGoA's property sitting on its lot until it could be picked up.

All in all, the buy back went smooth. The process protocols clearly had many levels of demarcation to separate VWGoA from the dealership.

I took the money and have moved on. It worked in my favor. VWGoA paid me $4k more for my 2014 than what I paid for my 2015.

:)
 
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BKmetz

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Those deals are still out there.

Some more detail.

After my wife and I signed some papers, the buy-back specialist uploads the photos of my car and verifies the sale and the transfer of ownership. Within minutes I received the buy-back email receipt from VWGoA stating it now owns the car and instructions on sending me payment. The buy-back specialist turned over the keys and some paperwork to the dealership. His work was done. A dealership employee moved the car to the back lot where all the other TDI orphans were waiting for transport to one of the TDI orphanages around the country. Some lucky ones will be adopted, many will not. I was told a transport truck comes by every week to two weeks, depending on how many cars were bought back, to haul the cars away to where ever.

At this point the car is under the custody of the dealership, but VWGoA owns it. This is an important distinction.

:)
 

Yukon4Runner

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So we are agreed. The “screw you” for the trade-in sales tax credit was “baked into the cake”. Thus, every time someone says “wow what a great deal!”, you know it is actually an amount lower that is equivalent to the sales tax on your vehicle. You don’t get that money back.
 

BKmetz

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So we are agreed. The “screw you” for the trade-in sales tax credit was “baked into the cake”. Thus, every time someone says “wow what a great deal!”, you know it is actually an amount lower that is equivalent to the sales tax on your vehicle. You don’t get that money back.
As you have very well made up your mind on this matter, I will not attempt to dissuade you with any facts. I suggest others do the same.

:rolleyes:
 

Lightflyer1

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But the language you used to describe the situation sure isn't. The facts are these things were thought of and included in the final settlement amounts. Your wording shows you think there was some kind of cheating or bad faith deal going on. Other wise why choose those words? Many, many people thought the deal was way to good to pass up, even though they really liked their car. Obviously you are one of the few that thinks they are getting a raw deal and your wording shows that.
 

phh-dfw

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Your wording shows you think there was some kind of cheating or bad faith deal going on.
I would not say that the legal representatives of the class (owners of affected vehicles) were cheating or operating in bad faith, however it is unquestionably self-evident that the degree to which they fully pursued the interests of their clients was dampened by a desire to come to an agreement more quickly than could have been accomplished HAD they pursued the interests of their clients with complete and total vigor. When negotiating for vehicle owners, the legal representative of the class should not have taken into consideration any of the benefits to governmental entities by having a quick settlement and the realization of revenue via fines. They should not have taken into consideration any benefit to society as a whole from vehicles that are considered to be polluting excessively being removed from the roads more quickly. Those benefits were to parties other than their clients. Look at the dates, of the PDF's on the court's web page for this case. The date of the first pre-trial order was 12/08/15. The date of the final acceptance by the court of the 2.0L settlement was 01/23/17. That is a time period of just over 2 years when looking after the interests of their clients. The date of the order approving attorneys' fees is 04/12/17, a time period of under 3 months when looking after their own interests. Is that cheating or dealing in bad faith? No, not really. Is that at the very least ethically hazy and in in the minds of more than a few something that ought to be considered legal malpractice? Yeah, I think so, and I think most who opted out probably agree. A sense of (A) having been represented incompetently by class legal counsel with conflicting objectives led to my decision to opt out every bit as much as (B) thinking the settlement amounts were inappropriate, which I consider to be a consequence of (A).
 
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Lightflyer1

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Again if you aren't the lead plaintiff, they aren't necessarily acting in your best interest and have very little requirement to do so. They are acting in the best interest of their client the lead plaintiff. If you want a say you need to be the lead plaintiff or have your own lawyer working for you. As a class member VW won't listen to you, The Judge can't listen to you, the government won't listen to you, and the class council has very limited interest in any of your woes unless it has something to do with the lead plaintiff or more money for them. Without your own lawyer my guess is a lot of you will be very unhappy with the eventual outcome.

You also expressed yourself much better than the poorly chosen words of Yukon4Runner.
 

phh-dfw

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Again if you aren't the lead plaintiff, they aren't necessarily acting in your best interest and have very little requirement to do so. They are acting in the best interest of their client the lead plaintiff. If you want a say you need to be the lead plaintiff or have your own lawyer working for you. As a class member VW won't listen to you, The Judge can't listen to you, the government won't listen to you, and the class council has very limited interest in any of your woes unless it has something to do with the lead plaintiff or more money for them. Without your own lawyer my guess is a lot of you will be very unhappy with the eventual outcome.
You also expressed yourself much better than the poorly chosen words of Yukon4Runner.
Wholeheartedly agree, that is why I opted out, got my own attorney, and filed individual suit. Incidentally an offer was made by VWGoA last August that was more than the buyback amount, and it was rejected. Even if I said it better, I identify completely with what Yukon4Runner said. That is why I made this post.
 

Mythdoc

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I call BS, phh. Your post sounds very principled, unlike your earlier rant, but in reality you are just in it to squeeze the dollars, just like the flippers and the rest of the underwear gnomes. Possibly worse than the flippers, because you won’t even admit it, you have your dignity and all. Amazing how people can get so self righteous when there is money to be gotten.
 

MBQ

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I call BS, phh. Your post sounds very principled, unlike your earlier rant, but in reality you are just in it to squeeze the dollars, just like the flippers and the rest of the underwear gnomes. Possibly worse than the flippers, because you won’t even admit it, you have your dignity and all. Amazing how people can get so self righteous when there is money to be gotten.
You have a beef with the flippers making a profit from dieselgate.

You have a problem with people wanting more money for the damages caused by VW.

Got it. You don't have to repeat it again and again.

By the way, the 3.0L PC2 ECR plan is a very bad deal for the owners if they decide to sell their car after the fix, if you look at their current market value. The lawyers & government sold them out.
 

Mythdoc

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By the way, the 3.0L PC2 ECR plan is a very bad deal for the owners if they decide to sell their car after the fix, if you look at their current market value. The lawyers & government sold them out.
On this we agree, if by owners you mean owners at the time the violations were announced. They got the least help, the most hurt from the settlement. Many of us would like to know exactly what was going on in the 3.0 negotiations, which were taking place after the election in the knowledge that a much different EPA leadership was about to take over. Did it make a difference? I have no idea. But I know of several 3.0 owners who opted out. They feel they deserved a buyback, which is hard not to have sympathy for. I don’t think too many observers would say any 2.0 owners got a bad shake.

As for your other statements, I may be outspoken but I know many others share my feelings. I’ll try not to overdo it, but it is hard to hold back when everywhere you look there is preening and posing going on, and a hand grabbing for ca$h. It is the hypocrisy I mainly want to call out, the self congratulating, not the greed.
 
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phh-dfw

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I call BS, phh. Your post sounds very principled, unlike your earlier rant, but in reality you are just in it to squeeze the dollars, just like the flippers and the rest of the underwear gnomes. Possibly worse than the flippers, because you won’t even admit it, you have your dignity and all. Amazing how people can get so self righteous when there is money to be gotten.
(1) What you are calling a "rant" was reaction to behaviors and biases exhibited by Judge Breyer in court on 3/21. What you are calling "very principled" is analysis of the results of a process that representatives for the class, VWGoA, CARB, the EPA, the FTC, the Dept of Justice, and the 9th Circuit were all parties to under the direction of Robert Mueller, the court appointed Settlement Master. Each of us can draw our own conclusion on the implications of his involvement, but certainly we can all agree that his involvement is something that will create a wide disparity of opinion. Obviously those are two very different things having two different tones. I'm sorry you see that disparity as BS, but your perception does not make that reality for anyone but you.

(2) Looking back over your posts, they would be a lot less disingenuous if you would go ahead and put the unwritten "In my opinion" at the start of each of them. I am not a flipper. I bought my TDI years before the discovery of VW's defeat device. As for "just in it to squeeze for the dollars", you are full of the BS you speak of sans the B. The week before VW was caught in September of 2015, I could have walked into any VW dealership in the nation and wholesaled my TDI for approximately $15K. With the mileage on my vehicle, my buy back computation came out in the neighborhood of $9K.

(3) It appears that you feel a need to discount the analysis, motivations, and actions of others reaching different conclusions than you do, but the buyback numbers ARE NOT generous to all. Depending on the model year and mileage driven adjustments. such is not always the case. Just because they landed generously for you does not mean that is the case for all.

(4) Underwear gnomes??? Really??? Aren't you concerned that is too logically substantive??? That reminds me of the old "Married With Children" episode where Al Bundy is arguing with his neighbor, Marcy Darcy and every time she makes a logical statement, he replies "Well you're a chicken!". Thanks for giving me the pleasure of that comedy flashback, made me smile.
 

Mythdoc

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The week before VW was caught in September of 2015, I could have walked into any VW dealership in the nation and wholesaled my TDI for approximately $15K. With the mileage on my vehicle, my buy back computation came out in the neighborhood of $9K.
Would you explain/substantiate the first part of this, please? Or point me to where you have explained it? Why was your 2010 Jetta worth $15K in late 2015 with the high miles (how high?) you had accrued, along with the vehicle age? It seems exaggerated on your part, but maybe I have missed something. Thank you.
 

phh-dfw

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Got it. You don't have to repeat it again and again.
On 3/21 that VWGoA's first offer in the intensive settlement negotiation discussions after the opening "in chambers" session (what is in the PDF transcript) was to offer the opt out's the opt in settlement amount, which apparently went over about like an unwrapped Baby Ruth candy bar floating in the punch bowl at her wedding reception with Magistrate Judge Corley. Considering such frugally inclined tendencies, have you considered the possibility that VWGoA pays their message board trolls on a "per post" basis rather than a monthly retainer? Not saying, just wondering...
 

phh-dfw

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Would you explain/substantiate the first part of this, please? Or point me to where you have explained it? Why was your 2010 Jetta worth $15K in late 2015 with the high miles (how high?) you had accrued, along with the vehicle age? It seems exaggerated on your part, but maybe I have missed something. Thank you.
You have. I am in the automotive industry, so I am not speaking solely as a TDI owner.

(1) NADA pricing is not universal from coast to coast. Retail and wholesale market values are determined by local demand. The dealership I work at has had customers utilizing any number of valuation websites like KBB or NADA that come to purchase a vehicle from less than 100 miles from the dealership that have had a 10% or more variance in what they computed online putting in their zip code, and what the valuation was for our zip code.

(2) Mine is a manual transmission. Those are more rare. There are any number of posts on this website that will confirm that. The buyback downgraded and paid less for those, even though they are harder to find for sale, and therefore in greater demand.

(3) I reside in the DFW, TX area. Higher mileage creates higher demand in areas where driving distances are greater. TX is over 1000 miles from east to west as well as from north to south. From Terrell, which would be considered the east edge of the DFW metroplex, to Weatherford, which would be considered the west is 95 miles. This also affects demand, and therefore valuation, in my market.

(4) Turbocharger and AC were both replaced right before 9/15.

(5) Not to the car's valuation, but to the cost of the situation, is the cost of a replacement vehicle I have been using so as to avoid complications of claim if someone T-bones me in the TDI running a red light. Can you imagine trying to deal with an insurance settlement seeking to have them take the VWGoA settlement amount into consideration? YOU insure, register, and maintain 2 cars when you only need one and look yourself in the mirror and say with a straight face you would not want that taken into consideration.
 

Mythdoc

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You have. I am in the automotive industry, so I am not speaking solely as a TDI owner.

(1) NADA pricing is not universal from coast to coast. Retail and wholesale market values are determined by local demand. The dealership I work at has had customers utilizing any number of valuation websites like KBB or NADA that come to purchase a vehicle from less than 100 miles from the dealership that have had a 10% or more variance in what they computed online putting in their zip code, and what the valuation was for our zip code.

(2) Mine is a manual transmission. Those are more rare. There are any number of posts on this website that will confirm that. The buyback downgraded and paid less for those, even though they are harder to find for sale, and therefore in greater demand.

(3) I reside in the DFW, TX area. Higher mileage creates higher demand in areas where driving distances are greater. TX is over 1000 miles from east to west as well as from north to south. From Terrell, which would be considered the east edge of the DFW metroplex, to Weatherford, which would be considered the west is 95 miles. This also affects demand, and therefore valuation, in my market.

(4) Turbocharger and AC were both replaced right before 9/15.

(5) Not to the car's valuation, but to the cost of the situation, is the cost of a replacement vehicle I have been using so as to avoid complications of claim if someone T-bones me in the TDI running a red light. Can you imagine trying to deal with an insurance settlement seeking to have them take the VWGoA settlement amount into consideration? YOU insure, register, and maintain 2 cars when you only need one and look yourself in the mirror and say with a straight face you would not want that taken into consideration.
Of these (2) is the only one I can actually put numbers to, to substantiate your claim of injury. And it is a very small amount. (4) is obviously not a factor in wholesale pricing, though it might be part of a sales pitch in a private sale. (5) you chose by opting out. That leaves (1) and (3). If you are saying that because Dallas is so vast, everyone pays more for a 200K Miles vehicle than other places, then you are not really being truthful to the way the industry, that you are a part of, works. Cars move all over the country for resale. If a dealer can get a particular car with 50K miles from Wilmington, DE, and sell it to someone in DFW, for the same price as the other guy is asking for a 200K mile car, they will do so. This was certainly also true in 2015. Maybe you could have found a sucker to take your car for $15K, but that doesn’t make it market value. You certainly couldn’t have sent it to Wilmington for that.

You omitted to say your actual miles, and give a forthright accounting showing bottom line, real world damage due to the settlement. You basically blew some smoke at us just now. Whatever. It’s a free country, knock yourself out. As for me being a Vw troll, that is kinda laughable considering the criticism I have thrown their way on this forum. Again...whatever. :confused:

Buh bye.
 

phh-dfw

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Buh bye??? Whatever dude. Someday hopefully you will overcome the inner demons you wrestle who are so obviously displayed here. Best wishes. Please don't be offended if I don't reply to you any more. I'm going to go look up tirelessly tedious in an illustrated dictionary so I can see your picture.
 
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