Injection pump

scooterbob65 · Sep 29, 2009

did all the timing by manual, if timing was out would it prevent fuel from going through the injectors or would it just not let the engine run? have not purged the return line. getting fuel through all small lines at injectors. will do large line today.
Bob

l_c · Sep 29, 2009

I'm no expert Bob, but I suspect that if the IP timing sprocket angular position (the static pump timing) were off (by enough degrees), it could really prevent any combustion from happening.

But the first / more likely scenario is that there's enough air in the injector lines, to defeat the effort to force fuel with enough pressure to pop the injectors open.

I don't mean to sound like I "know" the above, but I suspect them. Good luck; Larry.

1999Jetta · Oct 1, 2009

what is mechanically different between a 11mm auto fuel pump and a 10mm manual pump? i.e. can i go to a wreckers, find a auto tdi, and pull some pieces out of it and stick them in my fuel pump? or is the fuel pump too touchy for me to do it at home?

maret · Oct 28, 2009

can someone do a writup liek this about the older mechanical pumps?

pashpe · Nov 7, 2009

Did I fry the IP?

I have a 2002 VW Jetta 1.9 TDI with 149K miles on it. It started beautifully, ran great, and the VCDS showed the TDI timing was a bit retarded but not enough to be worried. However, in my attempt to make the car right for winter, I started to change the factory original timing belt last weekend. I ran out of time unexpectedly so I bundled the car back together, with the only thing that I really accomplished was to remove the air intake hoses, and the fuel feed and return from the filter to the IP. In my haste, I bundled up the car, and attempted to start it, with no luck. I finally remembered I needed to prime the fuel system, but perhaps the damage had been done.

So I have primed the crap out of the pump and the injectors, and it will start and at idle, it will throw a decent stream of fuel when I crack an injector nut, maybe about 6 – 10 inches at ½ turn open, but if I put it under load or just run in park up to 2000 – 3000 RPM, eventually the vehicle dies within 250 – 500 feet or less than a minute if parked, and I have to re-prime the injectors to get it started. Reading in the Bentley and the blogs (TDICLUB), the pump may have been damaged with the lack of fuel. I would have thought it would have enough left over diesel but maybe not.

I don’t see any other obvious cause. No electronics such as relay 109 as the blogs state, it lights up with the key on each time. It did throw a P1538, Injection Time failure code but usually it doesn’t throw a code.

Fix_Until_Broke · Nov 7, 2009

Make SURE that your fuel filter is full and that your thermostatic tee is not leaking.

Just spent a few hours working through this problem at the GTG tonight.

DanG144 · Nov 8, 2009

As FUB says, you probably have an air leak at a fuel fitting. Hose or Tee. Your IP will probably survive.

TornadoRed · Nov 8, 2009

Fix_Until_Broke said:
Make SURE that your fuel filter is full and that your thermostatic tee is not leaking.

Just spent a few hours working through this problem at the GTG tonight.

Yes, and just possibly the quick solution would have been new and possibly thicker O-rings on the thermostatic tee. That is almost certainly where air was leaking into the fuel filter and preventing more fuel from being sucked through from the tank.

Tomorrow I will reinstall my CAT fuel filter, since it had nothing to do with the failure-to-prime problem.

Fix_Until_Broke · Nov 8, 2009

I agree

pashpe · Nov 8, 2009

Thank goodness for an air hose

OK, embarrassed but happy!

I decided in my frustration to change the timing belt and not worry about the runnability until later. That was incredibly easier than I thought. Well, bundling up the job, I was ready to hook up the fuel lines. I primed the brand new VW purchased filter, and put the feed line on the filter, and MightyVac went on the other end of the feed line. At an incredible vacuum, no joy, so to speak. So off with the hose, and to the air compressor. I blew out a piece of plastic, which I assume is inside this hose looking at the end of it. I put the fuel line back on, pumped and at <5in, the fuel flowed like a champ. On goes the return line, back to the filter, pumped and finally primed the pump. Primed the injectors, then off to start it, and it started.

Let it get warm, and checked the injector timing and low and behold, no need to adjust, it is dead center. So, bundle the car up tomorrow evening with NEW fuel lines, and start driving it again.

I'm not sure where the plastic piece came from but I know it caused me a week of grief!

Thanks for the posts!

TornadoRed · Nov 8, 2009

pashpe said:
Let it get warm, and checked the injector timing and low and behold, no need to adjust, it is dead center. So, bundle the car up tomorrow evening with NEW fuel lines, and start driving it again.

If injection timing is right-on before a TB change, and everything is locked down securely, it should not be be any different afterward.

l_c · Nov 9, 2009

pashpe, I am not 100% sure how you attached the compressor, but I will assume that you used it to apply vacuum, to the feed line (coming from the fuel sending unit).

If that's the case, then I wonder whether you had a problem with the check valve that's situated in the tail end of the fuel sending unit. It could cut off the flow of fuel, if it's not working right or is clogged. Then the broken piece of plastic could have come from there?
If you have extra time later on, see if you can post a picture (if you still have the broken chunk that came through the line). Thanks ... Larry.

Ortizub41 · Nov 26, 2009

Hey guys if for some reason you take the pump off yourself, when you take the sprocket/pulley off make sure not to drop the (woodruff/the half moon looking thing) key where the timing belt is just put something there where you can prevent anything from going in there, I had this problem and from doing that it took me an extra hour plus. That wasn't fun.

rackaracka · Dec 5, 2009

Ortizub41 said:
Hey guys if for some reason you take the pump off yourself, when you take the sprocket/pulley off make sure not to drop the (woodruff/the half moon looking thing) key where the timing belt is just put something there where you can prevent anything from going in there, I had this problem and from doing that it took me an extra hour plus. That wasn't fun.

What sprocket has a woodruff key? What motor?

slugbug181 · Dec 9, 2009

Has anyone heard of Rothenbacher Engineering or their remaned injection pumps? I'm a poor college kid trying to get my, until recently, flawless bug running again and a new Bosch would break the bank! Any ideas and info is greatly appreciated. Thanks

TornadoRed · Dec 9, 2009

slugbug181 said:
Has anyone heard of Rothenbacher Engineering or their remaned injection pumps? I'm a poor college kid trying to get my, until recently, flawless bug running again and a new Bosch would break the bank! Any ideas and info is greatly appreciated. Thanks

If you are in Portland, OR, then you are in luck: you have one of the top Bosch injection pump repair shops in the country, just down the road.

Diesel Fuel Injection Service
8922 N.E. Vancouver Way
Portland, Oregon, 97211
http://www.dfispdx.com/index.html

If you are in Portland, ME, then you can still ship them your IP for an estimate and repair.

rackaracka · Dec 9, 2009

slugbug181 said:
Has anyone heard of Rothenbacher Engineering or their remaned injection pumps? I'm a poor college kid trying to get my, until recently, flawless bug running again and a new Bosch would break the bank! Any ideas and info is greatly appreciated. Thanks

Caution!!! I can speak first had about the Rothenbacher Engineering products. They do not use OEM parts - but their own. I believe they source most manufacturing from Asian copycats that have lousy quality control.

I recently bought a 98 Beetle TDI that the seller had bought and put back together. He bought a rebuilt motor - block and head from a trusted rebuilder (Have receipts from him - and the paint makes it likely that its the real deal). The seller also put a rebuilt Injection Pump on the car. He gave me e-mail threads complaining about Emiata.com and how long it took to get the pump back. Long story short - the pump failed completely in under 2000 miles of use. The core was partially refused as trash. Emiata.Com, Prothe (Ebay), Rothebacher Engineering, vwparts.com, and many other names are the same site.

Get your pump to DFIS. Its a big enough job that you should only do it once. Good luck!

Vince Waldon · Dec 9, 2009

slugbug181 said:
Has anyone heard of Rothenbacher Engineering or their remaned injection pumps? I'm a poor college kid trying to get my, until recently, flawless bug running again and a new Bosch would break the bank! Any ideas and info is greatly appreciated. Thanks

If you search the TDI forum on Vortex for "prothe" you'll find some testimonials... here's one to get you started:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4521360

maxgerman · Dec 15, 2009

I need to buy an injection pump for a 1998 TDI Jetta

Does anyone know where to buy or have rebuilt an injection pump. I would prefer a rebuilt injection pump, but if anyone has a low milege used one I would be interested. This is for a 1998 Jetta TDI from California. Bosch number: 460 404 978 and VW part number: 028 130 115G. Please call me at: 818-787-9138. Or E-mail me at: fnywrld@aol.com

TornadoRed · Dec 15, 2009

maxgerman said:
Does anyone know where to buy or have rebuilt an injection pump. I would prefer a rebuilt injection pump, but if anyone has a low milege used one I would be interested. This is for a 1998 Jetta TDI from California. Bosch number: 460 404 978 and VW part number: 028 130 115G. Please call me at: 818-787-9138. Or E-mail me at: fnywrld@aol.com

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2790182&postcount=139

injectorpump · Dec 20, 2009

IP runs wild

92'turbo pump runs wide open any suggestions will be greatly appreciated

DanG144 · Dec 21, 2009

Are you sure it is the injector pump? The engine is not running on crankcase oil?

tb85105 · Dec 21, 2009

Pump life

Do these pumps have an expected life span in miles? I have a 98 AHU engine with 205K with the original pump. Should I think about replacing it?

TornadoRed · Dec 21, 2009

tb85105 said:
Do these pumps have an expected life span in miles? I have a 98 AHU engine with 205K with the original pump. Should I think about replacing it?

Mine has over 300k and doesn't show signs of needing replacement anytime soon. But if it failed, I would think I got good value from it.

RoyD · Dec 26, 2009

I have a leak but in a different area.
The timing bolt that is removed to check the timing piston position when dong the head seal 'o' ring is screwed into a larger (1 inch or so) plug that has a 3 flat (sided) head. Diesel is leaking through the threads from the larger plug. On some schematics is looks like there is and 'o' ring under the plug. I can't find any threads about this plug. It is in the center of the head block between the 4 pressure lines going to the injectors.
Any info here would be great. I don't know i the seal kit from dieselgeek has an o ring that will fit and I have no idea how to the plug out.

Thanks for any info....I'm stuck.

Found this link...go to the last picture and the nut/plug whatever that the drill bit is sticking out of is the one that is leaking. Is there and 'o' ring under it and how do you get it out?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2308790&postcount=3

gjlove · Dec 29, 2009

Update on issue reported back in May

gjlove said:
I have a 2001 Golf with 179,000 miles on it. Recently had a problem with hard starting even in warm (50's) weather. Finally it would not start and the immobilizer light would light up. Took it to VW dealer who reprogrammed the keys and the car started and ran fine for about 500 miles.
Now the car will not start. There is no fuel in the clear line after the fuel filter. I replace the fuel filter with no luck. I disconnected the fuel line at the Injector pump and can draw fuel with a vacuum pump. However, when I reconnect the line to the injector pump and crank the engine there is no fuel in the clear line. If I connect a vacuum guage to the inlet on the Injector pump, there is no vacuum developed on cranking. The Bently manual says to check to see if I can hear the fuel cutoff valve opening when I turn the key. I do hear a clicking sound when the key is turned on and turned off coming from the Injector Pump, so I believe the valve is working. Any suggestions on where to go from here? Do I need a new Injector Pump? The area under the Injector Pump also appears "wet" as if there may have been some fuel leaking at some time. Never noticed anything under the car (No bottom shield in place.)

UPDATE:

Just to update my post from May 2009. Had a busy summer and a son in the hospital, so the TDI had to wait. This fall got to get back at it.

Thank you to Nutsnbolts and l_c for your assistance. Tried your suggestions this spring and still no luck. Spent what time I did have this summer reading about how to R & R the injection pump. Finally go it pulled in November and sent it off to Diesel Fuel Injection Service in Portland Oregon. They called me within a day of receiving the pump with a list of issues, including a scored shaft, dried out o-ring, bad first stage pump and a number of other issues. Cost me less than $900 including shipping both ways and it's back and works!!

These guys were great to work with!

While the pump was off replaced the timing belt, serpentine belt, water pump, fuel filter, thermostat, and lower radiator hose. Put a complete Timing belt kit on it as well. Also replaced the fuel injectors with new Power Plus 764 Injector Nozzles. Got it all back together and set the timing with the Vag-Com to slightly advanced on basic settings.

It has alot more zip now, but I am wondering what I can set with the Vag-Com to take full advantage of the new injectors. Still has the stock turbo, exhaust, intake, and no chip tuning.

Did have a little issue with the cap on the unused nipple on the #1 injector. It cracked and was spraying fuel all over the new injector pump! Replaced the cracked cap with a rubber vacuum cap and ordered new Vitron return fuel lines and cap.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the how to documents. The pictorial on how to replace the timing belt for an A4 http://pics2.tdiclub.com/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf was a great help. Also, used the instructions provided by lespedeza here on the removal and replacement of the injection pump itself. Thanks again everyone!

@byrnegreen · Jan 1, 2010

Any way of anticipating an injection pump failure?

Hi All,

Total TDI noob here, but I am looking at a few 02 Jetta options.

First, it seems the IP is the biggest potential cost risk for someone not capable of doing their own maintenance... would you say this is correct, or are there other potential major expenses I should consider (assuming the timing belt has been changed)?

Then, is there any way that one may anticipate a failure? Any red-flags that would indicate this (e.g. poor driver behavior; fuel type; etc.). In other words, what causes an IP failure, and how common are they? (Do all TDIs need them eventaully, or is it preventable?)

Thanks for your help!
Chris

TornadoRed · Jan 3, 2010

@byrnegreen said:
Hi All,

Total TDI noob here, but I am looking at a few 02 Jetta options.

First, it seems the IP is the biggest potential cost risk for someone not capable of doing their own maintenance... would you say this is correct, or are there other potential major expenses I should consider (assuming the timing belt has been changed)?

Then, is there any way that one may anticipate a failure? Any red-flags that would indicate this (e.g. poor driver behavior; fuel type; etc.). In other words, what causes an IP failure, and how common are they? (Do all TDIs need them eventaully, or is it preventable?)

There are a number of potentially expensive parts, with automatic transmissions in 2003-and-earlier VWs being the most expensive and the most likely to fail. So avoid automatics.

Injection pumps don't fail that often, but other fuel-related problems sometimes get misdiagnosed as IP problems. So unless a bona-fide TDI expert says you need a new or professionally-rebuilt IP, then get a second opinion.

The same holds true for turbochargers. They rarely fail, but inexperienced mechanics often recommend a new turbocharger when the real problem is a vacuum leak or a bad turbo control valve. So again, get a second opinion.

Well-maintained TDIs don't have as many problems, and their problems are cheaper to remedy. So if shopping for a used TDI, focus on cars with excellent maintenance records. If in doubt, walk away.

There are several top TDI experts in Massachusetts and in New England generally. So contact those guys and let them know you're in the market.

rcsavage · Jan 4, 2010

Injection pump rebuilders

I know this info is probably on the forum somewhere but I haven't found it..

newbie
does anyone have a list of "good" ip rebuilders I have a pump that needs to be rebuilt and don't want my next posting to be a horror story I have it out of the vehicle, it's for a 1998 jetta 264000 miles

rackaracka · Jan 4, 2010

rcsavage said:
I know this info is probably on the forum somewhere but I haven't found it.. newbie
does anyone have a list of "good" ip rebuilders I have a pump that needs to be rebuilt and don't want my next posting to be a horror story I have it out of the vehicle, it's for a 1998 jetta 264000 miles

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2426028&postcount=47

Please read Post # 47 from this thread. Send your pump to DFIS.

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