B5.5V stopped running, won't start

Hello All. Once again I am looking for the benefit of the collective wisdom here.

Early yesterday I drove my B5.5v about a mile to the gym and on the return trip an hour later, the engine quit abruptly. No bad crunchy sounds, just quit. It was 6°F on the trip out and 5° on the trip back. I had about 3 gals of biodiesel blend (~25% bio) in the tank and assumed it was gelling.

I added Diesel 911 to the tank and no luck. I could not add it to the fuel filter because I had no tools. I added 9 gals D2 to the tank, again no dice. I wrappeg rags around the fuel filter and doused them in hot water for about 30 mins - still no joy. I was to attenpt putting Diesel 911 into the filter but lifting the 2 hose connection that is held in place by a clip always led to a discharge of liquid fuel. As I was on the street I did not want to dump a bunch of fuel on the ground so I abandoned that avenue for the time being.

Finally the car was towed to a friend's house where it rested overnight in a ~50°F garage for over 12 hours. No luck this morning either. A consult with my local trusted machanic has cast suspicion on the lift pump. I _think_ the sound of the fuel system charging is weaker, but that could just be me.

The last two times the fuel filter was changed, restarting was a problem, but obviously not as big a problem as this because it eventually resumed running. The last time was by the trusted mechanic who used the VAG-COM to prime the filter and he still had trouble. I had him do it because I assumed I messed up the time I did it. Maybe not.

I really need this car back on the road ASAP and would appreciate feedback from anyone with similar experience or knowledge of problems like this. Despite the BSM change and a dead trans, the car has been good to me and at 193k its just getting broken in. Help.

John

Take the feed hose from the tank loose at the fuel filter, place it in a container, and cycle the key... see if fuel comes out.

Also, during cranking, is there any white smoke puffing out of the tail pipe?

Does the MIL come on when you turn the key on? Can you communicate with the engine controller?

Which is feed hose? approaches filter from the firewall or the opposite? or is it the connection with two hoses?

No smoke.

MIL? __ __ Light? Everything in the instrument cluster appears to proceed normally though I have not super-scrutinized it. The glow plug light seems to linger a little longer than usual but that could just be poor perception on my part. The glow plugs were replaced in 120k ago when I did the BSM and trans. If I read the forums correctly, there has been another update since then, but I don't think that explains what I am experiencing.

I have a Key-USB VAG-COM cable. I'll have to download the software onto my new work laptop as the one with it installed is 'on strike'. Am i just looking for codes or ??

It is the hose to the left side (not thermo-T) that connects from the firewall side of the filter. The thermo-T is in the return fuel path.

Few know this car like Oilhammer does, but I didn't think a bad lift pump would cause a no-start unless coupled with another issue. And, I am pretty sure he said elsewhere that he has never seen a failed B5.5 lift pump. Anyway, the tandem pump will "pull" fuel from the tank eventually.

I wonder if gelling was not the root cause and it is just fighting a restart. FWIW, I had a hard time getting a B5.5 to light after head and injector work last weekend. A shot of WD-40 in the IM fired it and it has been fine since. I still don't know why that happened as the lift and tandem pumps had tested OK on that car recently.

Yeah, never seen a lift pump fail in one of these.

Hoses are marked, white is feed, blue return, but the arrows can be hard to read sometimes.

MIL = 'check engine' light.

OK another question on cranking - how long is too long? Does one quit as soon as the oil pressure warning comes on? I figure its worth asking because the oil pressure alarm seems to operate on a simple delay - I don't think the pressure is any different in the first 10 seconds than after.

Oil pressure warning comes on because there is no tach signal and the delay ran out. I could explain the goofy oil pressure warning system, but that is another thread... LOL. In other words, don't pay attention to that, it's normal to behave that way during cranking.

Can anyone suggest any activities with VAG-Com for this problem other beyond just scanning for stored codes?

If you can even communicate, then that will tell us the main relay is still good (it is the B5's version of "relay 109", I forget the numerical tag ).

Then check for cranking RPM in the engine data.

RI_TDI said:

Can anyone suggest any activities with VAG-Com for this problem other beyond just scanning for stored codes?

Click to expand...

Given the weather up there, I think that A5INKY might be right with his suggestion about fuel gelling. Put the car in a garage and heat it up somehow. I thawed out our Golf a couple of years ago with a 100w light bulb in a reflector on the floor of the garage under the engine compartment and a 1500w heater facing forward at the rear bumper blowing warm air under the car overnight. Started right up in the morning with B99 in the tank.

OK still no joy but more information:

1) removed fuel supply hose from filter- definite flow whenever key is on. ergo - no lift pump trouble, right?

2) car stored outdoors overnight, but put back in garage for diagnosis.

3) tried WD 40 spray into intake tube just downstream from the air filter. Didn't want to take the MAF out of play. My helper may have overdone the spray a bit but the engine never so much as farted. Should it be sprayed elsewhere?

4) still no smoke when cranking

5) found a fuse on the floor. Its a 7.5 amp and not blown. I opened the fuse panel yesterday to look for obviously blown fuses and found the pictograms not particularly helpful - I surmised 28 has something to do with fuel and it was OK. That was the only one I removed. I can't tell where this 7.5 comes from. There is no chart in the owner's manual saying which goes where. Is such information available online or in TDIClub?

6) connected VAG-COM, ran a scan. log follows below. Basically I have a 16618 Boost pressure regulation and an 00532 volltage for airbags (maybe the fuse?)

7) I am not experienced with VAG-Com so I don't know how to check the cranking RPM, though I can say it sounds normal.

Saturday,26,January,2013,11:03:40:29932
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5 (x64)
Data version: 20121222

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chassis Type: 3B - VW Passat B5
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 35 36 37 46 47 55 56 57 58 75 76 77


VIN: WVWCE63B55E019023 Mileage: 314150km/195203miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-016-BHW.lbl
Part No SW: 038 997 016 N HW: 028 101 198 2
Component: R4 2,0L EDC G000AG 1388
Revision: 12345678 Serial number: VWZ7Z0D9744595
Coding: 0150034
Shop #: WSC 01080 444 84352
VCID: 2944F1F3838DCE50562
1 Fault Found:
16618 - Boost Pressure Regulation
P0234 - 000 - Limit Exceeded (Overboost Condition)
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2184 /min
Torque: 304.0 Nm
Speed: 114.0 km/h
Load: 70.6 %
Voltage: 14.29 V
Bin. Bits: 00101000
Absolute Pres.: 2366.4 mbar
Absolute Pres.: 2590.8 mbar
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
Part No: 3B0 927 156 CF
Component: AG5 01V 2.0lPD USA 0404
Coding: 0001134
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 6CCAC8E74CFF1B78ED4
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 4B0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 4B0 614 517 G
Component: ABS/ESP front 3428
Coding: 04257
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 255CFDC3BF95EA3072A
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
Part No: 1C0 909 605 C
Component: 09 AIRBAG VW61 04 0003
Coding: 12345
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 245AE0C7B4AF1338654
1 Fault Found:
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3B0-920-xx5-17.lbl
Part No: 3B0 920 929 C
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V04
Coding: 15235
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 2740F7CBC599F820406
WVWCE63B55E019023 VWZ7Z0D9744595
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901
Component: Gateway K<->CAN 0001
Coding: 00006
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: F0F25C97B0D77F9851C
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
Component: 80 Komfortgerát HLO 0004
Coding: 00258
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 3760278B153968A0D06
Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801
Component: 80 Tõrsteuer.FS KLO 0202
Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802
Component: 80 Tõrsteuer.BF KLO 0202
Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1C0959811
Component: 80 Tõrsteuer.HL KLO 0202
Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1C0959812
Component: 80 Tõrsteuer.HR KLO 0202
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio Labels: 3B7-035-1xx-56.lbl
Part No: 3B7 035 180 G
Component: Radio PM6 0016
Coding: 00033
Shop #: WSC 22225
VCID: 245AE0C7B4AF1338654
No fault code found.
End ---------------------------------------------------------------------

If you sprayed the WD 40 where I think you did it has to make it's way through the turbo and intercooler and plumbing. Plenty of places for it to condense out, also possible for the engine to ingest too much at once and try to run away. I would suggest take the 90* hose off at the intake (EGR) and spray it there.

For the fuse - I would just look for an open fuse position that has two contacts. Without a VIN it is hard to tell you which fuse goes where.

Jason

VIN is in the log above. is the 90° hose a black flexible hose or a stainless steel pipe? and should I just put in a couple shots of WD40 or a more continuous supply?

I just disconnected the upper IC (90 deg rubber) hose from the ASV and shot the WD40 straight into the manifold while someone tried the starter. Lit right up.

B5.5 fuses, in end of dash

Sorry, I thought VIN would be more specific.

Fuses from May 2002
Fuses beginning from S23 to S44 are identified with additional prefix 2, in wiring diagram. Example: Fuse S40 on fuse panel is listed as S240 in wiring diagram

1 - Heated washer nozzle 5 A
2 - Turn signal system 10 A
3 - free
4 - License plate light 5 A
5 - Power Seats, air conditioning, telematic, Multi-Function Steering Wheel, Power sunroof, mirror adjustment, HomeLink 10 A
6 - Comfort module comfort system 5 A
7 - ABS, Cruise Control system, Engine Control Unit 10 A
8 - Automatic headlight beam adjusting 5 A
9 - Parking aid 5 A
10 - CD-Changer Unit, Telematic, Multi-Function Steering Wheel, Navigation, Radio 5 A
11 - Power Seats with Memory 5 A
12 - B+ (battery positiv voltage) for on board diagnostic (OBD) 10 A
13 - Brake lights 10 A
14 - Comfort module system 10 A
15 - Instr. cluster, air conditioning, automatic transmission 10 A
16 - ABS, Steering Angle Sensor 5 A
17 - power outlet, Telematic 10A/15A
18 - Right headlight, high beam 10 A
19 - Left headlight, high beam 10 A
20 - Right headlight, low beam 15 A
21 - Left headlight, low beam 15 A
22 - Parklight, right 5 A
23 - Parklight, left 5 A
24 - Wiper system 25 A
25 - Fresh air blower, recirculating control, air conditioning, Power sunroof 30 A
26 - Rear window defogger 30A
27 - Rear window wiper system 15 A
28 - Fuelpump (FP) 20 A
29 - Engine Control Unit, Coolant Fan 20 A
30 - Sunroof 20 A
31 - Back-up lights, cruise control system, automatic transmission, Mirror adjustments, diagnostic 15 A
32 - Engine Control Unit, cruise control system 20 A
33 Cigarette lighter 15A
34 Engine Control Unit, injectors 15A
35 Trailer socket 30A
36 Fog lights 15A
37 Radio system, Navigation 20A
38 Comfort module system 15A
39 - Emergency flasher system 15A
40 - Dual horn 25A
41 - Telematic 25A
42 - ABS 25A
43 - Engine Control Unit 15A
44 - Heated seats 30A

A5INKY said:

I just disconnected the upper IC (90 deg rubber) hose from the ASV and shot the WD40 straight into the manifold while someone tried the starter. Lit right up.

Click to expand...

I am getting a little lost in the acronyms, but I disconnected the 90° hose at the firewall end of the intake manifold which brings the air from the intercooler. We sprayed an atomized spray into the the open end of the 90° hose while cranking for 20-30 seconds and nothing happened. Tried this three times. I don't think the length of the 90° hose would defeat the fuel value of the spray. Ugh.

I am frustrated, but should take the time to thank all posters - you've helped me avoid ordering parts I would have to return and a lot of wasted time. I appreciate all your help.

Did you check the timing belt?

did not check timing belt. that would be grievous. Had to stop for the day, but timing belt is top of the list now.

I mulled this overnight and can say that when I lost a timing belt in an old Volvo 240DL, the engine cranked much differently. The cranking of my BHW seems completely consistent with the way it cranked before whatever failed this week.

Nonetheless I have to check it. I looked through the forums and find no obvious guide and time is short so I must ask: Can one of you experienced folk let me know the easiest way to check the integrity of timing belt? Can this be done without major disassembly?

Regards the mystery fuse, there are four positions in the list provided (thanks again!) which include the function 'ECM'. None of those four positions have fuses installed. However, the 7.5a fuse found on the mat in the driver's footwell is the wrong physical size to fit in any of those four positions. So it remains a mystery. Oy.

Just pull off the top timing belt cover. There are several spring clips holding the top and bottom together.

what is your battery voltage with starter engaged (cranking)? below 10.5?

never had to take that cover off before. thanks for the pointer. timing belt in good shape.
so it has proper breathing and presumably compression and we sprayed a fuel substitute into the manifold while cranking and could not get even a stutter from it. what to look at next?

is the flap wide open and does it cycle through the close-open cycle when you turn the key on? It would be highly unusual for it to not fire if the flap is indeed open and something combustible is sprayed in. Removing the 90 degree hose is quite easy to observe the flap. My guess would be that it remains in the shut position

I will remove the 90° hose and observe the flap. A question about the connection between the hose and the manifold - how is it secured? Once I have disconnected the hose from the tube that brings air from the IC does it just slide off the manifold? The junction with the manifold does not appear to be secured using the sort of spring clamp as the junction with the IC tube.

I don't think its anything complicated, it also will give you a chance to check the hose for common splitting. the flap motor mechanism failure is not uncommon. It may or may not show a code. Also the electrical connection to it could be faulty.

When inspecting the timing belt, did you pull the cover and have someone crank the engine, while you observed the belt moving? If the belt is stripped the crank pulley will turn while the cam pulley will not. I have not seen this with the TDI (yet) but have many times on a 1.8t and a 2.8 V6.

Simple clip - there is a wire clip visible that retains the hose to the ASV (Anti Shudder Valve) via two tabs on the end of the rubber hose (there is a metal piece formed on the end of the hose). A small screw driver or pick can pull it the 1/2" or so that is needed to release the hose. Or pull it completely off and reinstall it once you have the hose out of the way.

Once thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the possibility that the engine speed sensor (CKP) signal is not making it to the ECM. Either through bad wiring, bad sensor, or bad tone wheel on crank. We have seen a few sensors fail at our shop and they don't set a fault. It is one of those sensors that the ECM ABSOLUTELY HAS TO HAVE in order for the engine to run.

Good luck on your continued diagnosis,

Jason

PS; if the ASV gears strip and the flap stays shut - the engine cranking speed is usually different.

1) Yes, observed belt while cranking, everything turning.

2) I do hear activity in the ASV, but of cours I cannot say if it is the right activity.

3) Thanks for the info on the downstream clamp.

4) I thought I saw cranking registering on the tach, but I'll have to check. Oilhammer mentioned to check cranking speed with VAG Com - how is that done? I suspect this is the best way to check integrity of the speed sensor, no?

With VCDS hooked up and key "on", enter engine module on VCDS and go from there is see a visual of cranking speed when the car starter is engaged. I can't remember the exact route into the module to see engine cranking speed.

Try engine/measuring block/basic settings/group 2/ engine speed. (my guess)

Aye Aye, Cap'n

Thanks