Short on time, nd suggestions

Life continues to be crazy with too many things all needing attention. With time being at a premium, suggestions on what to check first are much appreciated.

The issue first was intermittent wouldn't start on the first try. Cluster lights come on, GP light cycles, turn the key and may get a short buzz sounding like from the firewall right in front of the driver, and it would either start or nothing. Might take 2-3 tries, wouldn't get the buzz each time, before it would actually crank and fire. May go days between events, may happen multiple times daily for several days. Zero consistency. Finally, whatever it is failed completely and Flash won't start at all. All the lights come on, GP light cycles off, but turn the key the rest of the way and you get bupkus.

When it started failing worse, the old whacking around the starter would get it to turn over. Starter is about 2 years old, the PO replaced it for these symptoms. Even a cheap starter should last longer, I'd think. HOWEVER, hubby (real mechanic) pulled the connector on the end of the solenoid and checked voltage when I turned the key and said it was low but didn't mention a specific number. Haven't had time to go further. The Jetta needs attention, too, so Saturday has been declared "work on the damn cars" day.

Soooooo, the starter could be an effect but not the cause. Ideas of what would result in low voltage to the solenoid? Battery has 13+ volts in it, 6 months old, good quality Group 47. Hoping not the ignition switch, PITA to get to in order to replace, although a lot cheaper than a starter.

In order of probability, what should he focus on checking?

That's the first thing I would start with, ignition switch. It's not that bad to replace and it's very inexpensive.

If you've never replaced the switch on your B4V that's the first thing I would go with.

Steve

Bad connections at the battery, or bad ground somewhere is where I would check first. Either that or you have a bad wire. I've seen if there is a corroded spot in the wire, it can do that.
I would not recommend the hammer on starter trick though. That works for the old copper wound starters, but these have permanent magnets, and I've seen so many which have broken and then you're further up the creek without a paddle. I am a starter alternator tech, and see that pretty often.

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I would not recommend just swapping out parts. That is an expensive waste of time. Track back from where the voltage is low. Check at the battery, check at various points along the wire.

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Definitely sounds like an ignition switch. Not sure what would be causing the buzzing sound, though.

Had to repace the ign switch on my first B4V. Once you tear seemingly half the interior apart, it's a breeze to replace. When it fails, instr cluster lights stay out, correct? Everything is cycling normally, the car just won't start.

That's what's so bizarre; some symptoms point one direction, others a different. The starter is involved, but in what way. It was doing it before I replaced the battery in November.

Hubby's not a "parts changer", he diagnoses and fixes the actual cause, so we're good there. He was a heavy diesel mechanic until he blew out his back, still learning the idiosynchrises of TDI's.

MarsBar said:

Hubby's not a "parts changer", he diagnoses and fixes the actual cause, so we're good there. He was a heavy diesel mechanic until he blew out his back, still learning the idiosynchrises of TDI's.

Click to expand...

Yup, just a lot of times forums are notorious for a lot of people changing a lot of parts without any results... :-\

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Check the convenience module behind the headlight switch, I’ve seen a number of them fail. The two big red wires go to the starter, just remove them from the module and connect them, I used a fuse assembly from a VW to make the connection. I’ll bet this is your issue since it is between the ignition switch and starter and won’t allow the car to start if the alarm is triggered.

The module is this box (plastic is from the A3 and has the keyless entry, silver is the standard B4) behind the headlight switch:




I removed the outer cover to check for burned areas but did not find any. Then I tested for voltage from both of the red wires, while cycling the key switch. They should both have the same voltage but mine did not.






So I unpinned the two connectors:




Then inserted them into one of the fuse holders that resides on top of the fusebox. I grabbed some spares from the junkyard.




Here they are separated out:




Then snapped it into place on top of the fusebox with the other like connectors.




I'm not saying this is definitively the problem but odds are very good it is.


And before anyone asks, the red jumper wire is so the low beams with stay on with the high beams. I also swapped headlight sockets so the low beams will take the same 9005 bulb as the high beams for a little more light.

Good luck.

109 relay? When you first turn to the on position does the speed needle and or tach jump up slightly?

jhax said:

109 relay? When you first turn to the on position does the speed needle and or tach jump up slightly?

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He mentioned the glow plug light cycled, which it would not if it were the 109 relay.

Abacus, what do you mean by "when the alarm is triggered"? Your idea would absolutely mesh with where I heard the buzz.

What else does that module do and if we find that's where the problem is should we replace the whole module?

Steve Addy looked it up once and I think the official name is the Control Unit for Alarm.

ToddA1 posted a bookmark while ago that may help:

http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/Campingart/jettatech/alarmtext.htm

From this site:

http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/campingart/jettatech/alarmcentralhelp/alarmhelp2.htm

This is from one of the links on those pages and is probably the most helpful.

Good luck.

For me it's easier to remember if it's called the convenience module, even though when it fails it's never really convenient. Over on VWVortex they call it an alarm box.

Whether the unit has failed or not you should pull the referenced starter wires from it and connect those per Abacus, that will remove the module from the equation completely.

If that doesn't fix it I'd go back to the ignition switch. Bad ignition switches have given erratic behavior before and their failure mode is never the same. One time your dash lights might work but the vehicle won't start, another you have no dash lights but it will start, there's a whole host of weird behaviours that can come from bad ign switch.

After Abacus mentioned the alarm it sounded more plausible, especially since you heard buzzing from that region of the dash. It might not be your problem but he's correct that you should start there first.

Steve

I'm going to cross fingers, toes, eyes, and anything else I can cross that the problem is that module. Sure makes the most sense and would save a lot of time and money and frustration. Not looking forward to having to do a starter.

Trying to wrap my head around that module. If it's failed, would I still get the blinking red light by the door lock plunger showing "armed"?

That depends of what failed on it.

Aaaah.

UPDATE: After tearing the front apart -- e-brake boot, shift boot, center console, and knee bumper in order to get to the alarm module and relay/fuse panel, it's not looking like the problem. If I wiggled the key the car starts and we could see the relay working in the alarm module.

Oh well, at least we've got half the work done to be able to replace the ignition switch and it's a lot cheaper than a $200 starter.

MarsBar said:

UPDATE: After tearing the front apart -- e-brake boot, shift boot, center console, and knee bumper in order to get to the alarm module and relay/fuse panel, it's not looking like the problem. If I wiggled the key the car starts and we could see the relay working in the alarm module.

Oh well, at least we've got half the work done to be able to replace the ignition switch and it's a lot cheaper than a $200 starter.

Click to expand...

Since you were in there I'd still go ahead and remove the wires and bypass the module.

Steve

I can replace an ignition switch in about 20 minutes by just removing the steering wheel and using a puller made from a bearing splitter. It sounds a lot easier than how you're doing it.






I learned long ago not to use anything but OEM switches since the aftermarket ones tend to fail very early.

Have some other things to be done that require knee bumper, etc, be pulled so no biggee. And if the alarm module also ends up needing to be replaced (hubby not convinced about the merits), I'll have the wifely pleasure of "rubbing his nose in it".

Replaced the ignition switch yesterday, now Flash won't start at all, not even wiggling the key. All the lights come on, cycle like they're supposed to, but nothing else happens.
Jumped the starter wires in the module, no difference.
What the heck!!!!?????
Hoping it's something stupid like a connector not all the way seated.

It's the damn lock cylinder! Starts every time with a screwdriver.