water vs plastic water pump video

Fixmy59bug

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Very Informative.

I never knew there was a material change in the water pumps. I was worried that the plastic impellers of today were just as bad as the plastic impellers of 10 years ago.

Good to know the plastic impellers are better than they were.

Although, This video did nothing to compare them to metal. Just highlighted the improvements of the plastic materials.
 

MRIBOB

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How many people have seen a failed plastic water pump? I have seen a failed one on a Jetta - 1999 2.0 gas. The plastic blade fell off.
 

mysql

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I have no comment on which is better, but the video lacked details and substance. Additionally it was a sales pitch from a company that sells parts - so I wouldn't use it as a valid source on the topic.
 

ruking

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I am not sure why they bring up old to older news!? By definition then (after 2000), I had a "PPS" impeller water pump, 2003 VW oem TDI. I was told @ that time (2004-2007) that coolant loss due to plastic resin impeller (material use -PPS) wear was pretty common, but NOT universal. I also have heard of PPS impeller failure. The oem water pump (PPS) started to lose G12 coolant @ the weep hole @ app 75,000 miles. All I did was add coolant till a timing belt and water pump change @ the 100,000 miles interval.

The replacement water pump is an oem product (vendored by LASO), but with a brass impeller (not steel as mentioned in the video) . To date and more importantly over 45,000 miles, there has not been a DROP of coolant loss, nor has there been any noticeable difference in operation between plastic resin (PPS) and brass impeller water pumps. Now this is not to contradict what the video said, but most of their claims are opaque to all but the

1. extremely technical minded
2. one who went to a brass impeller and is considering going back to a plastic impeller
3. one who has a plastic impeller and wants to go to a brass impeller.

So all this LASO (brass) water pump has to do is bypass the leak issue @ 75,000 miles (33,000 more miles). So because of the PPS experiences I have had, and with zippo concerns with the brass impeller, they will have to make a MUCH stronger case to get me to switch.
 
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mysql

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The video argued that the OEM is the best source for the best designed water pumps.

Here's a Mazda OEM pump:




Here's the aftermarket one that flows a crapton better:

 

leicaman

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You folks are right in that they are trying to sell parts in so many words. So I sent the video to a friend of mine who calculates formulas for one of the largest plastic resin manufacturers in the US today. I will post his opinion here later.
 

jasonTDI

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Well here's the rub.

They are ahead of the bell curve here. MOST of the manufacturers are stopping the sale of metal pumps. You'll see soon enough when the vendors stop carrying them.

Where there used to be 6-7 choices there is now only two.
 

TornadoRed

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Hey gurus,
By all means chime in and tell me what you all think about this video.
http://www.blauparts.com/vw_water_pump_replacement/vw_water_pump_plastic_impeller_controversy.html
The article only compares PPS to steel, not to brass.

The article never mentions any particular brand, though at the bottom of the page there are logos for a great many brands including Saleri. I think Saleri makes water pumps.

If you go the Blauparts page for ALH TDI timing belt kits... their deluxe kit includes a waterpump with a steel impeller. Not sure whether this is to save money or because TDI drivers (for whatever reason) do not want timing belt kits that include a waterpump with a plastic impeller.
 

jasonTDI

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FWIW I have used plenty of the salari PPS pumps without issue so far.

Out of the 2000 or so TB's I've done I've seen 2 plastic impellers spin the shaft and about 10 complete bearing failures. The later will ging a tell of extra noise and more importently they leak coolant slowly and leave a tell-trail. It's important to peek under the cars and look on a regular basis.
 

Ski in NC

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I remain skeptical of plastic in engine systems. The chemical brews in coolant, oil, and the plastics themselves are complex and the possible interactions are myriad. Add thermal cycles and just plain years, and who knows what that stuff will really do.

I'm sure the chemists at GM were confident about their plastic intake manifolds!!

I'll prefer brass anyday, but if it is not available, then plastic it will be.
 

Powder Hound

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Personally, I think that video is a pile of marketing road apples*. The skeptic in me wonders if the engineers that do these water pumps are so freaking wise and great, why were they stupid enough to specify a plastic whose transition temperature is only a few degrees above normal operating temperature in the first go-round?

Similarly, the smoothness of the impeller shown for the plastic unit is unimpressive. Shows to me that the mold wasn't well finished or is being used well beyond its lifespan. Or possibly the mold was made of inferior materials and degraded rapidly in use. Either way, it isn't something I'd want on my resume.

Maybe the real purpose of this shill is because blauparts has a ton of plastic impeller water pumps they can't dump and they're trying to figure some way of foisting them off on unsuspecting customers.

And if metal impeller pumps are being sold, particularly in lieu of plastic impeller pumps, then it is silly to think that manufacturers are going to purposely end the manufacture of what sells in favor of that which does not.

This whole situation reeks of incompetence and misrepresentation.




*For those wondering, road apples are round green fibrous ball or apple shaped objects left behind when horses have passed by.
 

T_D_I_POWER

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There's no mention about PPS's compatiblity with OEM BASF Glysantin antifreeze -mfr of Gxx, and other German OE antifreeze coolant-. My stock OE VW WP impeller was disintegrated. The previous owner had flushed and used Prestone anti freeze coolant which is not compatible w/ plastic impeller WP. Found a plastic chunk caught on the t'stat - sign of pitted impeller - which caused it to stay open then it threw a CEL.
 

ruking

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Personally, I think that video is a pile of marketing road apples*. The skeptic in me wonders if the engineers that do these water pumps are so freaking wise and great, why were they stupid enough to specify a plastic whose transition temperature is only a few degrees above normal operating temperature in the first go-round?

Similarly, the smoothness of the impeller shown for the plastic unit is unimpressive. Shows to me that the mold wasn't well finished or is being used well beyond its lifespan. Or possibly the mold was made of inferior materials and degraded rapidly in use. Either way, it isn't something I'd want on my resume.

Maybe the real purpose of this shill is because blauparts has a ton of plastic impeller water pumps they can't dump and they're trying to figure some way of foisting them off on unsuspecting customers.

And if metal impeller pumps are being sold, particularly in lieu of plastic impeller pumps, then it is silly to think that manufacturers are going to purposely end the manufacture of what sells in favor of that which does not.

This whole situation reeks of incompetence and misrepresentation.




*For those wondering, road apples are round green fibrous ball or apple shaped objects left behind when horses have passed by.
In line with that one of the things that focus on this issue helps one to IGNORE is the fact that pre Mk IV water pumps could easily go 250,000 miles !! So from a water pump perspective, the old design was 2.5 x BETTER !!!! ???? Needless to say this is HUGE and on many levels !!! So where these water pumps designed and made all that much BETTER, etc. !!!??? The other side of this is you can not get 2.5 pumps, you have to actually buy 3 pumps. So is that, why buy 3 pumps when one will do;):cool: or was that why buy one when THREE will do ???? :eek:


I am sure the procedure to swap one out was easier and the water pumps were less expensive. (perhaps the TDI gurus can offer their experiences here, I have only heard and never have watched one done.) Of course it goes without saying you do it 2/3 times LESS
 
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greengeeker

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My stock OE VW WP impeller was disintegrated. The previous owner had flushed and used Prestone anti freeze coolant which is not compatible w/ plastic impeller WP.
Similar story here:



For those in the know: when vw rebuilds pumps (X at the end of the part number) do they use a new-resin impeller or do they just inspect the old one and reuse.
 

greengeeker

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I am sure the procedure to swap one out was easier and the water pumps were less expensive. (perhaps theTDI gurus can offer their experiences here, I have only heard and never have watched one done.)
One of the gurus will chime in soon ;) but I'd rather change a mk4/mk5 any day before I change an a3/b4. What are there 8 bolts holding them on?
 

ruking

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One of the gurus will chime in soon ;) but I'd rather change a mk4/mk5 any day before I change an a3/b4. What are there 8 bolts holding them on?

My knowledge is strictly second hand. Some years back 03 /04 time frame @ a GTG, in the process of watching Drivbiwire do 12 or so timing belt and water pump changes (Mk IV, even then, he was doing them in app 2 hours time), I asked him in passing if the MK 3 was different. At the time he said the interval was longer (250,000 miles) and also easier. Now, ...I do not know his current opinion.
 
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T_D_I_POWER

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greengeeker said:
One of the gurus will chime in soon ;) but I'd rather change a mk4/mk5 any day before I change an a3/b4. What are there 8 bolts holding them on?

Agree. The reason why there are 8 bolts because it has to spread the load evenly so there's no potential leak.

The older type WP makes more sense because it's driven by a separate V or serp. belt rather than by the TB. WP doesn't have to be syncronized like camshaft/crankshaft do. First, time I saw this app. was with the Honda Accord engine with its integral WP driven by the TB. This is pure politics for the stealership to earn more money. I wish it was more like the VR6 with its integral WP that's driven by the serp. belt.
 

Curious Chris

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10-1 the reason for going to the plastic is cost driven. You can mold a plastic impeller for $.50 compared to $5.00 to machine one out of brass. I am not saying that the new compound is junk, but cost always wins these days.

I pulled all the fractured plastic impeller parts out of my daughter's 2002 2.0 too slow. So which impeller plastic was that one? The replacement was brass.
 

mlemorie

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If you really believe that the germans decided to drive the pumps with the timing belts to make the dealers more money... Ive got a wall in china thats for sale... The original idea behind doing that was because it was, and still technically is, more efficient and cost effective. If you were a manufacturing company, would you rather assemble water pump X that requires 8oz of aluminum and a more complex casting process, OR would you rather assemble pump Y that requires 3oz of aluminum and is a much simpler casting.

Disclaimer: Weights used in this post are purely for example purposes only and are not ACTUAL measurements taken.
 

POWERSTROKE

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I have 6 Volkswagens in my family and have always had one for the last 20 or so years. NEver had a water pump problem until a metal impeller was put in at one of my timing belt changes. I went back to a plastic impeller.
 

PDJetta

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Thanks. I'd like to know if there are any real drawbacks to using brass impellers. Also, don't we occassionally read about overheating engines from slipping plastic (PPS) impellers, even on TDIs made after 2000?

--Nate
 

CoolAirVw

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Also, don't we occassionally read about overheating engines from slipping plastic (PPS) impellers, even on TDIs made after 2000?
Here's one two posts above yours....


I pulled all the fractured plastic impeller parts out of my daughter's 2002 2.0 too slow. So which impeller plastic was that one? The replacement was brass.
Plus I've seen 2 fractured plastic impellers in the last year and both were 2000 and up cars. But certainly its possible there were not the new plastic. (both gassers)
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I have probably removed 25+ broken plastic-impeller water pumps from EA113 VAG engines, gas and diesel (more gas, though, but probably because there are so many more of them around in the USA). I have never seen a steel (cast) impeller break on one.

Didn't see it earlier on (1998 through 2001ish) because those cars' t-belt intervals were generally shorter. But when they started lengthening them is when we started seeing so many pumps failing in that ~70 to 90k mile range. I have noticed it seems to spike when the weather first turns cold. ALH, BEW, BHW, AEG, AVH, AZG, AWM, AWP, etc. Even seen one on an AAA (A3 VR6) break.

And of course, it is VERY common on other Anglo-Saxon derived cars (Fords with Duratec engines, Ford-era Jaguars, BMWs, Rovers, etc.).
 

jasonTDI

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How many thousands of BMW E36 cars died due to the failures....lots...(92-98)
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Yeah, that's what I mean, it is not just VAG products that fall victim to broken plastic impellers. :eek:

Poor BMWs....
 

jasonTDI

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Got a couple of them cheap because of it though!
 

ruking

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Got a couple of them cheap because of it though!
Yes, As goofy as it might sound, routes like this are really a good way to shop !

Now I do not know this for sure, but IF the 2009/2010/2011 MY's have plastic impellers then they have at least 4 things going for them 2. HPFP 3. DSG 4. lower mpg than Mk IV's
 
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