Who killed the electric car?

azhottie

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jetta 06 - beautiful!!
thank you so much for sharing...and i love it won awards at sundance - means someone is listening!!!
 

Lug_Nut

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Interesting comment from Ed Begley: These aren't for everybody, just 90 percent of the population.

Who killed the electric car? Mr. Milo Kilometer, that's who. The range was, and remains, the sticking point. When electrics can be energized for 4 hours of travel and can be re-energized in 20 minutes for another 4 hours, THEN they will be accepted. Even the best GM's Impact / EV-1 would do was 150 miles with the optional extended range battery pack. It then required several hours of recharging.

I was firmly in the 10% group. Now i'm in the 90.
My daily commute was 125 miles. There isn't an electric powered personal transport that will do that. Now that my new office is 20 miles away, the 40 mile range is well within the limitations of conversion vehicles, and I'm considering the options I have.
 

silverstar03

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I saw this film a couple weeks ago (special screening). it's well done, and it will piss you off once you realize how great these cars were. Plus an all electric RAV4, Ranger pickup, etc. they were all made.

One of the film's points is actually that the range could have been far greater had GM given new battery technology a try. that initial range was using lead-acid batteries--but they bought controlling stake in a new battery company that could have doubled the range. when they decided to kill the electric car, they sold this company to...chevron texaco. crud.
 

slote

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Keep this in mind when considering electricity: where's it come from. Most of our electricity right now comes from burning coal, also not a renewable resource. Nuclear power, wind, hydro are all good sources too, but don't make up as much of the market. I'm not saying electricity isn't better, just that it's no holy grail when it comes to cars. Also, I'm part of the 10%, so I could be biased.
 

VEGASTDI

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slote said:
Keep this in mind when considering electricity: where's it come from. Most of our electricity right now comes from burning coal, also not a renewable resource. Nuclear power, wind, hydro are all good sources too, but don't make up as much of the market. I'm not saying electricity isn't better, just that it's no holy grail when it comes to cars. Also, I'm part of the 10%, so I could be biased.

Thank you.........not only is coal produced electricity dirty, what do you do with all the lead based batteries when it's time??

Won't even get into the petroleum based plastics and rubber used to produce the electric cars........

No huge gains and a lot of compromises concerning electric cars.........

But hey, if you're some silver spoon fed celebrity who blows more energy in a month heating or cooling your 10,000' mansion/pool(s) then the average Joe uses in a year, I guess it might make you feel good to show up at an occasional event spouting eco-crap to make yourself feel better.:rolleyes:




.....why does America care soooo much what these entertainers have to say????
 
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NFSTDI

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Those RAVS are a gold mine! One recently sold on eBay for sixty-seven thousand dollars! They sold new for thirty-two. Now that's what I call a great investment.

Electric cars have thier place although Hybrids are more practical for most would be EV owners. What we need is a Diesel Hybrid that we can run on BIO. Now that would be a more efficient use of resources.
 

RC

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NFSTDI said:
... What we need is a Diesel Hybrid that we can run on BIO. Now that would be a more efficient use of resources.
Add a plug-in to that diesel hybrid so we can charge the batts from home with roof mounted PVs and micro windmills, fuel it with the B100 from the biod plant 2 miles down the road..... and I believe we are close to were we need to be.
 

Variant TDI

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VEGASTDI said:
Thank you.........not only is coal produced electricity dirty
This statement is nearly as dated as that Dump truck with which people ignorantly judge your TDI. Coal has come a long way.

as with the hybrids what do you do with all the lead based batteries when it's time??
From a secret agreement between GW and the Devil, all the Lead Acid batteries from Hybrid cars will end up stored in William Jefferson's freezer. Don't worry... there will be plenty of room after the money was removed... even if Hybrid sales reach into the millions.

Won't even get into the petroleum based plastics and rubber used to produce the electric cars........
Phew... and all this time, I thought that non-electric cars required plastic and rubber too.
 
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supton

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Hey, with all the recent discussions of Btu/mile (for efficency), anyone want to look into NOx grams / Btu for coal plants? CO2 g/Btu, SO2 g/Btu, etc. Recently on this board was the assertion that even the dirtiest power plants are 4-6 times cleaner cars; no sources were given. But for a true apples to apples comparasion, what are the numbers?

I'd try to figure it out myself, but I don't have the time nor do I know where to look; and I probably wouldn't be able to tell the crackpots from the real numbers.
 

MrErlo

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you mentioned NOx emissions which is one of the biggest complaints against BioD AFAIK. people have reported that this is because the NOx removal systems deteriorate when exposed to sulphur. but with zero sulphur in BioD and ULSD couldn't VW put in a NOx removal system? i haven't seen a thread about that yet, but am very interested in overcoming this hurdle in the widespread BioD acceptance.

if i get really bored later i might find some time to try to work out those g/Btu numbers. for right now, i've got a project that i actually enjoy working on.
 

veedubs66

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RC said:
Add a plug-in to that diesel hybrid so we can charge the batts from home with roof mounted PVs and micro windmills, fuel it with the B100 from the biod plant 2 miles down the road..... and I believe we are close to were we need to be.
I know it's not a diesel, but a step in the right direction...

http://www.edrivesystems.com/index.html

and for those of us in canada: http://www.hymotion.com/index.htm

a combination of plug-in diesel/electric hybrid running on bio would be awesome!
 
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david_594

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One of the biggest advantages with electric cars is that we are adding flexibility to the energy source of vehicles. If gasoline were to go away tommorow electric cars would still work, same with coal, natural gas, nuclear, biomass, solar and wind. They are not dependant on any one thing.

Coal power is dirty? So what? I live a mile down the road from a hydroelectic damn that generates part of our towns power. Some people on the board here have photovoltaic cells on their homes and generate their own electricity. Windmills are cool to. The point is there are plenty of clean ways to get electricy.
 

VEGASTDI

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Variant TDI said:
This statement is nearly as dated as that Dump truck with which people ignorantly judge your TDI. Coal has come a long way..
You're right, and the country did NOT suffer a major black out a few years back due to an antiquated electrical grid, and coal is a clean renewable energy source.....:rolleyes:


Variant TDI said:
From a secret agreement between GW and the Devil, all the Lead Acid batteries from Hybrid cars will end up stored in William Jefferson's freezer. Don't worry... there will be plenty of room after the money was removed... even if Hybrid sales reach into the millions...
Sorry, your attempt at humor escapes me...............I have yet to see any PROOF that the TOTAL (not just the initial )eco savings of an electric car was that different than a 40 MPG gasoline or 50 MPG diesel car.




Variant TDI said:
Phew... and all this time, I thought that non-electric cars required plastic and rubber too.

Again, your sarcasm is lost on me...........your statement was my whole point. Both vehicles still use petroleum based products to manufacture, one may pollute less up front but has more green issues later on.

While I believe in oil company conspiracies...........this was not one of them. If it were, the lame attempts would not have even been tried.
 
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VEGASTDI

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david_594 said:
The point is there are plenty of clean ways to get electricy.

100% CORRECT................However, just as is with oil, until the the "clean ways.." become as cost efficient as what's currently available....it aint gonna be main stream.
 

Variant TDI

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VEGASTDI said:
You're right, and the country did NOT suffer a major black out a few years back due to an antiquated electrical grid, and coal is a clean renewable energy source.....:rolleyes:
One of these is not related to the other. Unless you can prove that it was the "dirty" coal plants that caused the grid to fail....

Sorry, your attempt at humor escapes me...............I have yet to see any PROOF that the TOTAL (not just the initial )eco savings of an electric car was that different than a 40 MPG gasoline or 50 MPG diesel car.
Go to school. Read a book. Learn about batteries before you open your mouth. Your initial statement was complete ignorance and your rebuttal was so off target that you hit the barn down the street.

Again, your sarcasm is lost on me............
Sorry you can't keep up.
 

azhottie

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jetta 06 - beautiful!!
NFSTDI said:
Those RAVS are a gold mine! One recently sold on eBay for sixty-seven thousand dollars! They sold new for thirty-two. Now that's what I call a great investment.

Electric cars have thier place although Hybrids are more practical for most would be EV owners. What we need is a Diesel Hybrid that we can run on BIO. Now that would be a more efficient use of resources.
um, according to my dealer/salesman - that may be the '08 jetta!!

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/vw_may_offer_je.html
 

VEGASTDI

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Variant TDI said:
One of these is not related to the other. Unless you can prove that it was the "dirty" coal plants that caused the grid to fail....



Go to school. Read a book. Learn about batteries before you open your mouth. Your initial statement was complete ignorance and your rebuttal was so off target that you hit the barn down the street.



Sorry you can't keep up.

I'm not the one failing to keep up.............the grid failed because of over usage and age............now add thousands/millions of the POS electric cars charging on said grid. Never said it failed because of coal. Just said coal is not the cleanest energy source......but it would be the PRIMARY energy source for the electric cars....get it yet???

Apologize if the compound reasons confused you.


GFY on the battery comment...........the technology is not ripe or if it is the price is too high.

Right now it's lead acid..........How about we dispose of 'em in your back yard????

The simple fact remains that the recent crop of electric cars were no more green or economical over their life span than a gasoline powered economy car.
 
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david_594

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VEGASTDI said:
Right now it's lead acid..........How about we dispose of 'em in your back yard????
Lead acid? Does any application where capacity and space are the 2 biggest constraints use lead acid?

Arnt most hybrid cars out there Ni-MH? So maybe you are the one who is a little off base.

Also, your exable about all these extra cars on the grid will kill the grid.... Have you ever heard of peak and off peak hours? During the day, everyone is at work, everyone has AC going. At night everything gets shut off, AC use is significantly less, lights are off. Now when exactly do you think they anticipate these vehicles being charged? During the day when electric rates are higher? when its sittig in the parking lot at work? Or at night when electric rates are lower and the vehicle is sitting in the garage or driveway at home?
 

VEGASTDI

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david_594 said:
Lead acid? Does any application where capacity and space are the 2 biggest constraints use lead acid?

Arnt most hybrid cars out there Ni-MH? So maybe you are the one who is a little off base.

Also, your exable about all these extra cars on the grid will kill the grid.... Have you ever heard of peak and off peak hours? During the day, everyone is at work, everyone has AC going. At night everything gets shut off, AC use is significantly less, lights are off. Now when exactly do you think they anticipate these vehicles being charged? During the day when electric rates are higher? when its sittig in the parking lot at work? Or at night when electric rates are lower and the vehicle is sitting in the garage or driveway at home?


Why are you bringing up hybrids????


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle


"Batteries used in electric vehicles include "flooded" lead-acid, absorbed glass mat, NiCd, nickel metal hydride, Li-ion, Li-poly and zinc-air batteries and the Molten salt battery"

"A large lifecycle input difference is that the electric vehicle requires electricity instead of a liquid fuel. The advantage of the electric vehicle is that the electricity can be provided by renewable energy. However, if the electricity is produced from fossil fuel sources (as most electricity currently is) the advantage of the electric vehicle is reduced, or nearly eliminated. [6] Thus utilizing and developing additional renewable energy sources is required for electric vehicles to further reduce their net emissions."


The last 2 statements in that paragraph is what I believe to be the downfall at the moment.........not oil company or government coverups.





Your peak useage statement is valid........However, I'm sure given the current range (or lack thereof) many users would need to recharge during peak hours just to get home.

As far as A/C useage..........wish I could shut mine off at night!!! Hasn't been dropping below 90* here for a while...LOL!!!
 
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timeline

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My recent electric bill was 250 bucks. I'm considering a south facing solar array on my roof to the tune of about $35000 bucks. This would be the cost of buying a couple of Priuses for my family.
So... I will drive my 2000 TDI New Beetle and save on my power bill instead.
If a decent rear wheel hybrid assist package comes along for my VW I will buy it and charge it from my array. By the time EVs come along my solar system will have paid for itself!
Cheers.
 

DrSmile

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Let me be quite politically incorrect, but couldn't you use electricity from a nuclear power plant for your electric car and claim zero emissions? Heck, being able to claim to own a "nuclear powered" vehicle is worth a three mile island every decade or so! :/
 

david_594

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We just need to implement some of those cool new safter nuclear technologies.... like pebble bed reactors. And I do hope they built it in the back yard of some nice neighborhood. That way everyone can freak out and property values fall through the floor and I can go buy a nice house there for cheap. :)
 

DrStink

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VEGASTDI said:
As far as A/C useage..........wish I could shut mine off at night!!! Hasn't been dropping below 90* here for a while...LOL!!!
Ummm, you're the one that chose to live in the middle of the Mojave desert.
Shall we discuss the environmental impact 1.6 million people deciding to live in a place that only gets 4 inches of annual rainfall? Shhh. No one mention the elephant in the middle of living room.
 

RC

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DrStink said:
... Shall we discuss the environmental impact 1.6 million people deciding to live in a place that only gets 4 inches of annual rainfall? Shhh. No one mention the elephant in the middle of living room.
There are alot of places that might become difficult to inhabit once the cheap, easy to obtain energy and water are cut off.

Gonna be interesting.
 

Tin Man

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DrStink said:
Ummm, you're the one that chose to live in the middle of the Mojave desert.
Shall we discuss the environmental impact 1.6 million people deciding to live in a place that only gets 4 inches of annual rainfall? Shhh. No one mention the elephant in the middle of living room.
I try to take my living in rural, backward leaning Kentucky in perspective. Watching New Jersey shut down its corrupt government arguing over a 1% increase in sales taxes gives me pause....

What if I am in the best place to live, given the plentiful water, cheaper energy, truly "green" landscape, and high diesel acceptance. Heck, the local soy producer/distributor is readying a large BioDiesel plant as we speak, so when the global warming/meltdown/drowning of our coastal overcrowding occurs, heck, Kentucky may be Shangrila!:D

TM
 

DodgeCummins

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I always wondered why you could not just run an alternator off one of the drive wheels on an electric car and run the car off the alternator & re-charge the batteries as you drive.

Then a guy told me it's against the Laws of Physics. Free Energy won't work.
 
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