23N5 software update thread to address turbo failures

Got my letter yesterday. Also debating on whether I want it done or not. Can I request that it not be done? I need to take it in for its first service. It is just short of 10K and I may be taking it in on Saturday. Also... I have a stupid question... what are you guys referring to when you say "blowtorch?"

tdiatlast said:

What VeeDub said. I would add that, since you live in a very cold region, I'd get the update done at your earliest convenience, since this has been determined (possibly? to be a cold-region issue.

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OK, you're probably correct in your assessment. Appointment made, Friday at 0800.

My appt made for next Tuesday at 10am.

VeeDubTDI said:

It is covered extensively in the turbo failure discussion thread.
TL;DR during the first few minutes on a cold start, when you reach third gear, the car goes into "blowtorch" mode to warm up the emissions components. This creates significant stress on the turbo charger in the form of increased boost pressure (beyond what is safe for a cold temperature) and extremely high exhaust gas temperatures (similar to what you would see at full load up a mountain), both of which are responsible for a number of turbocharger failures.

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Diesel Mike said:

Got my letter yesterday. Also debating on whether I want it done or not. Can I request that it not be done? I need to take it in for its first service. It is just short of 10K and I may be taking it in on Saturday. Also... I have a stupid question... what are you guys referring to when you say "blowtorch?"

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See my quote at the top of this post. You should have this update done at your earliest convenience.

The "blowtorch" refers to the emissions warm-up strategy that creates near-full-load levels of heat and lots of boost on a cold engine in order to get the emissions systems up to temperature. This can result in turbocharger failure due to the extreme stresses placed on the turbocharger while it (and the metal inside of it) and the oil are still cold.

Made my appointment today for Friday. Despite using a Frost heater at home and work, plus a IDparts winter front. I don't think it'll change much for me, but can't hurt. Also Confirmed my Turbo warranty to 120k

A few people here mentioned the engine taking longer to warm up post-update. I think they were referencing the movement of the temp needle, is it possible that they just corrected it so that it's accurate, whereas in the past it would show a higher temp than what was actually occurring? I hope that's the case. Can anyway confirm using a ScanGauge or something?

Justinw303 said:

A few people here mentioned the engine taking longer to warm up post-update. I think they were referencing the movement of the temp needle, is it possible that they just corrected it so that it's accurate, whereas in the past it would show a higher temp than what was actually occurring? I hope that's the case. Can anyway confirm using a ScanGauge or something?

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I hate to break it to you, but the coolant temperature gauge's precision has not been changed. It still starts to move at ~125*F and still will show 190*F when the coolant is actually just 165*F. It seems they haven't changed the 165*F to 225*F "dead zone."

I guess the reports of slightly slower warm-up are a consequence of the reduced warm-up strategy ("blowtorch") actually causing the engine to take longer to warm up. This is a good thing, IMHO.



I, too, received the letter yesterday despite the fact I already had the update. I just beat them to it!

TurboDieselPoint

Justinw303 said:

A few people here mentioned the engine taking longer to warm up post-update. I think they were referencing the movement of the temp needle, is it possible that they just corrected it so that it's accurate, whereas in the past it would show a higher temp than what was actually occurring? I hope that's the case. Can anyway confirm using a ScanGauge or something?

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Great idea! Someone with the update should confirm this theory.

TDP is on point (haha) with his assessment. Less heat in (reduced blow torch) = longer warmup.

Why the need to get the emissions up to temp so fast is my question. I mean good grief, 5 or 600 degrees isn't hot enough off a cold start?

Diesel fuel burns real hot!

PassatSE4me said:

Why the need to get the emissions up to temp so fast is my question. I mean good grief, 5 or 600 degrees isn't hot enough off a cold start?

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It's not trying "to get the emissions up," it's trying to keep the emissions DOWN!!!
Faster warm-up = lower emissions.

atc98002 said:

Just picked my car up yesterday after getting a couple of minor issues fixed. I asked if this reflash was done, and he said the system didn't list it as required. He thought perhaps because the car is so new it was done before I picked it up in late September. When did this update become available?

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And my letter just arrived today. I'll have to let my adviser know his system is a little behind the times!

It wasn't the dealer who sent it out, it was VWoA.

tdiatlast said:

Faster warm-up = lower emissions.

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Yes, but is it really necessary to warm up that fast? What would a few more minutes hurt?

PassatSE4me said:

Yes, but is it really necessary to warm up that fast? What would a few more minutes hurt?

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I've thought the same thing. But, it turns out the urea needs hot exhaust in order to react for SCR. Otherwise, it is simply ineffective and could even cause crystalline buildup in the exhaust.

Getting the DOC up to operating temperature quickly is recommended so it can start to eliminate carbon monoxide and, crucially, reduce particulate matter ASAP. I think VW designed the warm-up strategy not to appease the EPA, but to help out those who make short trips. Short trips can really fill up the DPF quickly, especially if the DOC isn't warm and reducing PM upstream. So, by getting the DOC up and functioning effectively immediately after a cold start, the car reduces the chances of clogging its DPF from short trips.

Still, I feel the original warm-up strategy was just a poor execution of a useful technique to facilitate exhaust cleanup. 23N5 seems like a much tamer and more adaptive evolution of the original warm-up strategy. It takes a bit longer to warm up the emissions system than the old, persistent "blowtorch" warm-up strategy did, but is a good trade-off overall to save the turbo.

TurboDieselPoint

Hypermile said:

Great idea! Someone with the update should confirm this theory.

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Although it's just a few samples. I looked back at a few unpublished videos I have of the warm up via my SG II. And have been comparing those to what I am seeing post update. The average time I've observed to 170*F appears to be about 95 seconds. This is the point on my car where the "dummy" needle of the dashboard gauge indicates 190*F. I'll make a point of running my timer from start-up until 170*F for several more days to get a larger post update sample.

ABS said:

Although it's just a few samples. I looked back at a few unpublished videos I have of the warm up via my SG II. And have been comparing those to what I am seeing post update. The average time I've observed to 170*F iPpears to be about 95 seconds. This is the point on my car where the "dummy" needle of the dashboard gauge indicates 190*F. Ill make a point of running my timer from start-up until 170*F for several more days to get a larger post update sample.

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I believe 165*F is the bottom of the range for 190*F on the gauge.

Personally, I have observed a more gradual engine coolant warm-up since the update.

TurboDieselPoint said:

I believe 165*F is the bottom of the range for 190*F on the gauge.

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I'm repeatedly seeing it register there at 170*

And I do apologize, I wasn't clear. 95 seconds longer to that point post update...

TurboDieselPoint said:

It takes a bit longer to warm up the emissions system than the old, persistent "blowtorch" warm-up strategy did, but is a good trade-off overall to save the turbo.

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The blowtorch is still there. Not sure we're gaining anything in that regard.

PassatSE4me said:

The blowtorch is still there. Not sure we're gaining anything in that regard.

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I'd respectfully disagree. The drop in temp, boost request and "blowtorch" duration as being observed by several of us, together, theoretically, will reduce stress on the componentry...

ABS said:

I'm repeatedly seeing it register there at 170*

And I do apologize, I wasn't clear. 95 seconds longer to that point post update...

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My car's gauge moves to the 190 mark at 165*F actual coolant temperature. It looks like yours did too in your video at the 6:38 mark.

ABS said:

Good Morning,

As promised here's a video of the post 23N5 Software update. Please forgive me in advance for the video, I was pre-caffinated when I started the video, then changed orientation on my phone a few seconds in and I'm unable to edit it to correct the orientation. Its easier to watch on a mobile device, as you can adjust orientation manually... Again my apologies.

Based on this first cold start after the update, boost request has definitely dropped. The highest I saw this morning during the warm up routine was in the 10-11 psi range, versus north of 16 in the last two videos (and my daily observations). In addition EGT seems to be 2-300 degrees lower during the routine. We see a very small jump into the low 1,000's, but not up over 1,300 like I have seen in the past.

[FONT=&quot]http://youtu.be/tACBhGin6nM[/FONT]

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TurboDieselPoint

ABS said:

I'd respectfully disagree. The drop in temp, boost request and "blowtorch" duration as being observed by several of us, together, theoretically, will reduce stress on the componentry...

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^This.^ Plus, it will wait for the oil to heat up a bit and thin out for better turbo lubrication. Everything about it seems to have been softened.

Yes, at times the exhaust can still exceed 1100*F, but it slowly ramps up to it and doesn't hit the turbo at quite so hard of a time or for so long; there is more of a delay before it considers ramping up to quadruple digits.

TurboDieselPoint

TurboDieselPoint said:

That's interesting. My car's gauge moves to the 190 mark at 165*F actual coolant temperature.
Did your car do this both pre- and post-update?
TurboDieselPoint

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It's close. Pre update the gauge stops motion at an actual water temp of 168*F, you can see it in the second video I posted early on in this thread. My first video stopped at 150, as I ran out of memory, so that one is of no help. But typically, yes, I could maybe argue the 2*F difference, or chalk it up to viewing angle. But the cars gauge seems to consistently stabilize at 170 now...

ABS said:

I shot another quick video of the pre update warmup. There's a brief "blowtorch " effect evident about 2 minutes in. We will see what it looks like post update. I'm in the dealers service lounge now and will take a post update video tomorrow morning.

http://youtu.be/q3CAJUvr9kg

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ABS said:

It's close. Pre update the gauge stops motion at an actual water temp of 168*F, you can see it in the second video I posted early on in this thread. My first video stopped at 150, as I ran out of memory, so that one is of no help. But typically, yes, I could maybe argue the 2*F difference, or chalk it up to viewing angle. But the cars gauge seems to consistently stabilize at 170 now...

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I'm gonna go with 166F just like I've observed myself on countless occasions.

VeeDubTDI said:

I'm gonna go with 166F just like I've observed myself on countless occasions.

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I guess I'll chalk it up to being a little "bent". I swear I still see a sliver of white to the right of the needle up to the 168 point. Regardless, for timing purposes I'll go with 165 so I'm consistent with what others are seeing. I'm also hoping others will use their stopwatch pre and post update to get a larger sample of data to determine, collectively, the increased duration of the routine.

So for those in warmer mild climates (So Cal) should we consider not going with the update? Do we have the option without voiding the 120k warranty extension?

@ ABS & TDP... I hope you guys are right.

I still believe this whole warmup routine is a bit extreme nonetheless.

VeeDubTDI said:

Given that they're actively working to correct the problem (kind of unusual for VW), I wouldn't be hot to sell it just yet. At least wait for the turbo's extended warranty to run out before doing so.

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Agreed, also know that if careful during the existing warmup the turbo will last. I'm sitting in Sharret's waiting room now while my 150,000 mile service is done with no turbo problem. They will be doing my recall while I'm here.


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Aquaphat said:

So for those in warmer mild climates (So Cal) should we consider not going with the update? Do we have the option without voiding the 120k warranty extension?

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At present it is a 49 state update and not available in CA.

I will have the update done when/if it does become available.