Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
If this issue has been around since the 09 models, then WHAT THE F HAVE THEY BEEN DOING FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS?
Procrastinating until all of the vehicles are out of warranty and they don't have to worry about it anymore.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
But back to the topic at hand, bhtooefr had posted that when cars are parked in heated garages the frost can build up over time, so I was asking him for clarification on that.
Please read the actual discussion again.

What VeeDubTDI said was, when someone goes for a LONG drive, there's a big build-up, and then when they park in a heated garage, all of that melts and causes hydrolock on startup.
 

Barkbuster82

Active member
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Location
Maryland
TDI
2011 Golf, Manual
The next time you get a no-start, have it towed to the dealer rather than forcing it to start. Once you get it to start, the evidence gets sucked into the engine and blown through the other side (or into your oil pan) and your dealer will claim that they can't replicate the problem and send you on your merry way.
Thanks VeeDubTDI, towing it into the shop would probably get their attention a little more.

Thanks bdisco for the VW phone number.

I just got off the phone with customer service and I told them my situation. Basically they said that inspecting the intercooler is totaly up to the dealers discretion. She asked where I found this TSB. She said I could get a second opinion at another dealer.

I noticed when I was under the car that the cooler lines were externally wet with oil / sludge. I wonder if i complained about the car leaking oil from the intercooler if that angle could get the ball rolling for me... ?
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
It couldn't hurt. There are several dealers around here, so you may want to try a different one. Mention your starting issues and the fact that goop is leaking onto your nice garage floor from the intercooler... that should prompt them to open it up and hopefully find a nice puddle of slime.
 

MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Location
NoVa/NJ
TDI
2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
I think this may work if you have a kit.Block off the bottom grill and insulate the I/C piping going to the intake.
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
I think this may work if you have a kit.Block off the bottom grill and insulate the I/C piping going to the intake.
People have tried and still had issues. It might reduce your risk but it won't solve the problem.
 

jackbombay

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Location
Diesel knows best
TDI
A4 Jetta
Please read the actual discussion again.
What VeeDubTDI said was, when someone goes for a LONG drive, there's a big build-up, and then when they park in a heated garage, all of that melts and causes hydrolock on startup.

Yes, I understand that there are atypical situations where one could have issues with the car parked in a heated garage, but most people don't drive 500 miles a day or however far is long enough to get substantial inter intercooler frost build up.

I have not suggested that parking in a heated garage is a "solution" to this problem, I was only discussing it because if someone does live within 50 miles of work and does park in a heated garage they probably don't have to worry about water ingestion to the point of hydrolocking the engine. Those of you that have read every post in this thread may be able to corroborate or refute the "within 50 miles of work" statement of mine.



So what about the solution gofaster proposed? Personally I'd start by hooking up a gasser boost gauge (which also measures vacuum) to the intake system to verify that there never is vacuum in the intake system so I wouldn't draw unfiltered air into the engine. As the CRs have a throttle plate I would want to double check that there is never vacuum in the intake at all driving conditions.

Once I had determined there was no vacuum I'd start with a smaller hole than 2mm as its always easy to make the hole bigger. I'd drive around for a few days and inspect the inside of the pipe each day to check that the hole was functioning properly LOL and maybe make it bigger if it got plugged with sludge, but with ~17 PSI behind it I doubt that would be an issue. I'd also pour water in the pipe to make sure the hole was big enough to let the water drain.
 

PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
Yes, I understand that there are atypical situations where one could have issues with the car parked in a heated garage, but most people don't drive 500 miles a day or however far is long enough to get substantial inter intercooler frost build up.
I have not suggested that parking in a heated garage is a "solution" to this problem, I was only discussing it because if someone does live within 50 miles of work and does park in a heated garage they probably don't have to worry about water ingestion to the point of hydrolocking the engine. Those of you that have read every post in this thread may be able to corroborate or refute the "within 50 miles of work" statement of mine.
So what about the solution gofaster proposed? Personally I'd start by hooking up a gasser boost gauge (which also measures vacuum) to the intake system to verify that there never is vacuum in the intake system so I wouldn't draw unfiltered air into the engine. As the CRs have a throttle plate I would want to double check that there is never vacuum in the intake at all driving conditions.
Once I had determined there was no vacuum I'd start with a smaller hole than 2mm as its always easy to make the hole bigger. I'd drive around for a few days and inspect the inside of the pipe each day to check that the hole was functioning properly LOL and maybe make it bigger if it got plugged with sludge, but with ~17 PSI behind it I doubt that would be an issue. I'd also pour water in the pipe to make sure the hole was big enough to let the water drain.
500 miles? Try 15 miles.

It was after about 15 miles of driving that, when I pulled out to pass, the engine swallowed a slug of water and started hammering, vibrating, losing power, and blowing steam out the exhaust. The second time was after 85 km of driving (53 miles), and the no-start was after 92 km (56 miles).

In appropriate humidity conditions, an aircraft carburetor can build up enough ice to choke the engine in a matter of minutes or less. I have no reason to believe it's any different for the intercooler.
 

chfscott

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Location
Chicago suburbs
TDI
2011 Sportwagen,DSG
I had a couple of rough starting /idle issues recently, thanks to this thread I had a good idea what was happening. When my car was in for its 30k service I explained to the SA what was happening, that I had read about similar things on the internet and that I was aware of the tsb. He agreed that my cars symptoms warranted the modification kit. The down side is that it will probably take 2 weeks to get it.
 

Barkbuster82

Active member
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Location
Maryland
TDI
2011 Golf, Manual


Here's what mine looks like. I showed this photo to my dealer. They refused to look at it. They say that the TSB is not applicable to my TDI.

Going to another dealer soon.
 

bdisco

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Location
Flashing my lights behind you, CT
TDI
'10 4dr Golf & '12 T-Reg.
So what is this oily residue that's inside our inter-cooler plumbing? Cosmoline?
:rolleyes:

So when the Dealer tells you "Don't worry, that's normal, they all do that." , they're not lying.
 
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Barkbuster82

Active member
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Location
Maryland
TDI
2011 Golf, Manual
So what is this oily residue that's inside our inter-cooler plumbing? Cosmoline?
:rolleyes:

So when the Dealer tells you "Don't worry, that's normal, they all do that." , they're not lying.
LOL. The sludge does have the same consistency as cosmoline. But we know better then to fall for that. Dealer did actualy say "They all do that".


Condensed oil vapor & water is my guess.
Yeah, its water and oil. I took that photo after a bunch of water came pouring out.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Of course they all do that... because they're all designed poorly. :rolleyes:

Maybe VW was attempting to have the first air-air intercooler that thought it was air-water? DOING IT WRONG! ;)
 

NovaMoto

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Location
Halifax, Canada
TDI
'11 TDI Golf
My '11 has had issues starting twice now as well. I dropped by my dealer today and he more or less finished my sentences as I described the behaviour. I'm on a list for the new I/C, etc. All parts are backordered they have told me.
 

BurpleTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2006
Location
Central MA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
Independent of the driveability issues, this gunk must be killing the efficency of the intercooler if its coating the entire inside of the core...
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
I was just thinking that. It looks like it's starting to form a hard shell on the black elbow, so I suspect that same stuff is inside the IC core. Perhaps over time it will build up think enough to start restricting flow, excluding ice formation.
 

STRANGETDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Location
East Hampton, CT
TDI
2013 Audi A3 S-Line Premium Plus Quattro - APR Stage II
My '11 has had issues starting twice now as well. I dropped by my dealer today and he more or less finished my sentences as I described the behaviour. I'm on a list for the new I/C, etc. All parts are backordered they have told me.

Entire new intercooler system, or TSB kit? Just want to be sure.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
This happened to me this evening! Damn! 14 this morning started fine and drove to work great left for while this am everything fine!

I am in the DC suburbs in MD and never thought this would happen here !
Thoughts!
This sort of happened to me during the cold snap we had earlier this week in the New England states. D@mn!!! Car started fine at 10F in the morning, hauled arse on the highway 55 miles to work on the highway with temps at 15F. Temps were still below freezing when I left work in the evening but a warming trend was underway. Car started fine and I hauled arse home from work. My g/f and I went out later for some dinner and temps were now a few degrees ABOVE freezing. Car started fine but stuttered and sputtered during the first turbo spool-up when heading out. It was accompanied by a huge thick cloud of steam out the exhaust. All was fine after that. Later when we came out of the restaurant, a little bit of the same thing happened briefly when starting to drive thru the parking lot.

Temps around home were now several degrees above freezing and I hauled arse on the highway and did several long hard runs at WOT to try to clear as much stuff out of the IC as I could. It's been fine since driving it like I stole it but I also haven't had another cold snap yet.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Now that you've blown it all out with a few WOT runs, pop your intercooler open and see how much is left.
 

TwoTone

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Location
DMV
TDI
05.5 Jetta (sold)
Look there's a;ready a post about someone having this problem outside of warranty and getting screwed. Any of you that have this problem, just get it towed to the dealer to force there hand.

If you keep waiting and not getting it documented, VW will leave you out to hang since it's a TSB and not a recall.
 

epc

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
After 4 days of sub-freezing temperatures and snowing, today the temperature rose to 50 deg F by noon when I started the car to go to lunch.

Yes, all the ice built up in my intercooler for 4 days had melted and my engine choked.
 

thanatos

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Location
HRM, Nova Scotia Canada
TDI
2011 Golf Sportwagen TDI
Update on my case: I've been calling VWoC. They came back and said "the parts on back order, don't really know when they'll be available."

I thanked her for her polite information but explained it wasn't actually new, or progressive in anyway and so I need to keep escalating the issue as "parts on order" isn't cool with a pregnant wife and unreliable vehicle.

Callback tonight, they are checking to make sure my parts order is "red listed" and expedited, and she is investigating a loaner vehicle. I pointed out that loaner takes care of reliability but doesn't help my (high) payment: I'm paying for something I have no confidence will work right now, and am not even completely confident the new parts will resolve the issue. I'm driving my wife's car because even though it's a 10 year old Acura (Honda) it starts in the cold weather without a problem. She indicated that when the parts are available, they're open to reviewing the gap to get me some satisfaction on the financial end.

I would recommend everyone call VWoC or VWoA and get the attention we all deserve. If we increase the financial impact to VW past intercooler re&re and all demand loaners and payment credit in a courteous and firm way, we might get the changes we're after. Unfortunately money is the only thing that talks at this point, we've already bought them.
 
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