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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old November 15th, 2019, 16:40   #16
forrest resto`s
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So.. what are all the cars etc.. tdi's that had the fix and have constant dpf/egr coolant etc. failures supposed to do when the "warranty" expires?..(or denied because of this or that)..just toss the cars over the cliff??... Most people do a delete for one of 2 reasons: more hp/torque gains and dependability..or just can't keep paying for the repair..or both...we bought these cars without knowing these problems would arise..and they are SERIOUS problems to deal with later on..and to resolve it, a "delete" is for some people the ONLY option..besides dumping the car..alot of people cannot afford to dump the car..(years of financing etc..investing 25,000 new, more or less used) and now own it free and clear..wow

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Old November 15th, 2019, 17:36   #17
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Fix it like everyone else has to do when their car breaks. Or you can always sell it. The majority of the people who now own these cars should be fully aware of the circumstances of the car they own. There will be used and new parts available. If you haven't paid the car off after "years of financing" then you made a bad choice in buying a car you couldn't afford.
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Old November 15th, 2019, 17:41   #18
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What are the owners "supposed" to do when the warranty is up and the car breaks? Same as any other major breakdown. An economic decision needs to be made. Either pay to fix it, or junk it and get a different vehicle (or trade it in, probably for peanuts, at which point the dealer that they traded it in to, gets to make that decision. Who's going to want to buy a car with a current, known, major problem? Off to the scrap heap it goes).

Most owners aren't technically savvy and won't go the modification/delete route. Many others live in areas subject to periodic emissions inspections and won't be able to go that route. If the EPA keeps rattling cages, finding companies that sell that sort of stuff and finding mechanics willing to install it may become difficult. Sure, there will be a few savvy enough to do it, but they will be few in number. And that's what the EPA wants.

I have always been of the opinion that VW is going to be very hard-nosed about the extended warranty time and mileage limits. If it breaks a week out of warranty, it'll be on you.

P.S. This sort of thing is FAR from isolated to VW. A friend of mine has a Ford Fiesta automatic with about 170,000 km on it. Now there's a time-bomb, and he knows it. YES, there's an extended warranty on those cars. He's already past it. Drive it 'til it drops, leave it where it stops.
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Old November 18th, 2019, 13:43   #19
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I was considering a another diesel and always planned if something goes wrong after the emissions warranty ran out deleting it.
This makes me rethink that plan, The E-Golfs are looking a little more appealing now.

It also makes me rethink ever selling my PD.
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Old November 18th, 2019, 14:38   #20
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Well I can tell you that part unavailability is not something limited to late model diesels, or any diesel, or Volkswagens. I have dealt with all kinds of that over the years. ANYTHING Chrysler is a royal pain, because they were gobbled up by Mercedes-Benz, then spit out, then cobbled together by Cerebus, then a sort of bankruptcy/rescue by Fiat. So pretty much anything that is not in current production is a complete fiasco to get parts for. The latest is all the Ram pickups that need fuel tanks. The company that made them no longer exists. PT Cruiser? Forget it.

We are dealing with a heater core on a Pontiac Vibe. Which nobody has. GM cannot get it. NUMMI (the people that built it, along with Toyota Matrix and some Corollas at the time) no longer exists. GM during that tenure no longer exists. Pontiac no longer exists. GM can get virtually nothing for it. Toyota only sells the entire HVAC case, which we are not even 100% sure is even the same. This Vibe has a Delphi HVAC system in the dash, not sure if a Matrix does or not, despite rolling down the exact same assembly line at the exact same time, they may have gotten Denso HVAC... in which case NOTHING is the same. We've had this poor car here in the shop with its dash out for over a week.

The latest is using a new core that does not quite fit and modifying the case. I am glad I am not working on it.

Ford has discontinued everything for my unique one-year-only 1996 F150, and they actually did so a decade ago. My only fix for the MIL? Taking the cluster out and removing the bulb. The parts to properly fix it do not exist.
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Old November 19th, 2019, 19:42   #21
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It would appear green diesel engineering has quit selling Tunes. Not sure how long ago that happened. Very sad to see.
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Old November 19th, 2019, 21:37   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLSTDI View Post
It would appear green diesel engineering has quit selling Tunes. Not sure how long ago that happened. Very sad to see.
You are right. The page exists but everything shows "sold out":

https://www.greendieselengineering.com/Welcome.action

Interesting way to close the shop!
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Old November 20th, 2019, 07:27   #23
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Or to keep it open pending decision of the EPA. Easy to reopen this way.
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Old November 20th, 2019, 10:11   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 View Post
Or to keep it open pending decision of the EPA. Easy to reopen this way.
I've got a bad feeling about that. The one shop I was referring to was initially put on the radar for their Ecodiesel tuning posts and caught red handed in person deleting a customer's truck.
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Old November 20th, 2019, 11:24   #25
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Charlie, excellent reporting and good analysis overall here guys. I want to mention that the COST of staying compliant is ridiculous, at least in BMW diesel sedans. When a DPF costs $2600 ($785USD in Germany, shipped to USA), it is a shameful thing. How in HELL do they expect us to maintain our rides? The Euro-version DPF only has minor differences in sensor bungs and I think one mount tab is located a little different, and they're missing the integrated OX-cat.

What we need is HARMONIZED standards for all major automakers in the western and eastern hemispheres. I know it's hard work, but ISO standards organization does it for nearly every other manufacturer type, from pharma to medical devices to packaging to quality control to electronics and much much more. Why can't we have an ISO standard for 'on road vehicle emissions'? There is no logical reason except country governments use emissions policy as back-door tariffs and trade impediments.

STOP the BS.

The #1 emitters are international shipping companies. I would argue a close second is the fast food restaurant industry--watch what comes out the smoke stack of a Burger King on an average Saturday! About 10x-30x the pollutant mass that comes out of all the vehicles passing it in that same day, is what. Yet somehow they get a pass. Use your freaking eyes, EPA, or go grab a particle counter and stand next to a Burger King during their business hours. Then compare that emissions to the car's emissions alone when the Burger King is closed (have to increase sample time such that the number of car transits is same for both A and B data sets). Then subtract and figure out the restaurant's emissions. I bet it will ridiculously dwarf the car's.
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Old November 20th, 2019, 11:28   #26
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GDE got a surprise inspection from the EPA, and is working on developing some compliant tunes. They are done with the delete stuff.
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Old November 20th, 2019, 11:46   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrest resto`s View Post
So.. what are all the cars etc.. tdi's that had the fix and have constant dpf/egr coolant etc. failures supposed to do when the "warranty" expires?..(or denied because of this or that)..just toss the cars over the cliff??... Most people do a delete for one of 2 reasons: more hp/torque gains and dependability..or just can't keep paying for the repair..or both...we bought these cars without knowing these problems would arise..and they are SERIOUS problems to deal with later on..and to resolve it, a "delete" is for some people the ONLY option..besides dumping the car..alot of people cannot afford to dump the car..(years of financing etc..investing 25,000 new, more or less used) and now own it free and clear..wow
These concerns are true for all cars, and not just the engines. There are many, many items in modern cars that, if in need of replacement, will quickly exceed the value of the car. That's why luxury cars depreciate so quickly. Once they're out of warranty people are, justifiably, terrified of repair costs.

I recently read about how bumper requirements on cars were supposed to lower repair costs. But now, with crumple zone standards, pedestrian safety standards, and cameras and sensors in bumpers, repair costs have skyrocketed.

Keeping a modern diesel running with emissions intact probably isn't a lot more expensive than any car with a turbocharged gasoline engine. And a lot of light duty diesels will run fine for well over 100K miles without a major emissions-related repair. Let's hope the car's paid for by then.
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Old November 20th, 2019, 11:52   #28
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The body shop we deal with recently changed owners, the original owner sold the business. He said in the last 10 years, minor crashes are turning into crazy stupid high jobs that will total the car LONG before it is "used up". He got out while he still could.

Case in point: the previous generation Silverado. Those ignorantly blinding LED headlamps? $1300 each. He had a truck that was only three years old have a $6500 repair for a glancing deer hit. A headlight, bumper cover, grill, hood, and fender, with some various plastic bits. That's it. $6500. That truck will be a total if that happens by the time it is only seven years old. And he showed me the picture, it was barely anything. But once you add in the price of the parts.... and then the labor to just reset all the various modules and stuff. It is nuts.
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Old November 20th, 2019, 18:00   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicklockard View Post
What we need is HARMONIZED standards for all major automakers in the western and eastern hemispheres. I know it's hard work, but ISO standards organization does it for nearly every other manufacturer type, from pharma to medical devices to packaging to quality control to electronics and much much more. Why can't we have an ISO standard for 'on road vehicle emissions'? There is no logical reason except country governments use emissions policy as back-door tariffs and trade impediments.
The UN-ECE standards are used worldwide ... except the USA (due to "not invented here" syndrome) and Canada (copies USA standards for the most part). Some countries have their own standards that more or less duplicate the UN-ECE standards. But the American standards are just different enough that you can't state that complying with one body of standards achieves compliance with the other, even though the engineering solutions that are actually implemented in the vehicle are broadly similar.

Not that those standards, or the means of implementing them, are without their own flaws, as we have seen over the last few years (and you can say the exact same thing about both bodies of standards).
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Old November 21st, 2019, 04:16   #30
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The difference in standards for automobiles here is also what drives prices up. When a company has to make a car a certain way JUST for the USA (and perhaps Canada ), it used to not make *that* much of a difference, since the US used to be a substantial market. But now, with so many other markets jumping on the car culture, especially China and India, our standards are no longer the sizable percentage they once were. China took over the US a few years ago for Audi sales outside Germany, and that trend continued although recent developments may have slowed that.

Still, when a company can sell literally the exact same model of vehicle in every other part of the world with just minor tweaks (even allowing for LHD/RHD), they cannot sell them here. So we have to get stuck with something specific for us OR something drastically changed (often the powertrain) that otherwise ruins the whole vehicle.
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