Timing belt bolt torques

jwpatches

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Location
Enumclaw, WA
TDI
03, Golf
I'm personally changing the timing belt on my 2003 Golf ALH. This is the third timing belt as the car has 264000 miles. The other two were done by shops. Of course, a bunch of new bolts came with the kit.
1. When I was installing the new large lower roller, instructions say to torque to 33ft/lbs then another 90 deg. When I did this I felt the bolt or the hole yield and it would no longer hold this torque.
3. Likewise when installing a new serpentine belt tensioner, the longest bolt yielded. I pulled this bolt back out and the threads are still good making me believe the threads in the AC/Alternator bracket have stripped a bit.
Is any of this a real problem?
How could these conditions be repaired and still meet the torque requirements?
4. The large bolts that connect the body mount to the engine mount also say to torque then another 90 deg. After the initial torque, they didn't move the full 90 deg. Is this a problem?
After the other experiences above, I didn't want to press my luck.
5. Now, do I have to go to someone with VAG-COM to get the injector pump timing verified?
With the new turbo, timing belt, cam/lifters, vacuum lines, tensioner, tools, fluids, burning out the intake, cleaning the EGR, deleting the snow screen, cleaning the MAF sensor, replacing N75, I've got over $2000 just in parts, having done all the work myself. The car is worth $3600 (according to KBB). I hope I can resolve these bolt issues as I feel this car will continue to go well into the future. Gotta look into the transmission chatter, too.
Hope it's all worth it.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=76249

Large roller is listed as being 30 ft-lbs plus 1/4 turn.

Serpentine tensioner bolts 18ft-lbs. There are several bolts. A bit tricky to torque.

The engine mount bolts are now 74ft-lbs, period. The mounts are known to strip after a several TB changes. If they are taking full torque then you're likely fine.

I don't think you ought to really run this engine with that large TB roller bolt issue. Probably not what you want to hear, but if this thing lets loose you'll be looking at shelling out additional thousands of dollars (trashed head).

When it comes time to plug VCDS into the car and if you don't have anyone nearby then PM me (I'm east of Arlington): my availability for the foreseeable future is really tight, but would try and accommodate if possible.

Your car is worth what someone will pay for it. It's worth whatever value to you that you think it is. My cars wouldn't fetch on the market what they're worth to me, but that matters not because I'm not selling.
 

jwpatches

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Location
Enumclaw, WA
TDI
03, Golf
Over torque

Thank you, UhOh for the response and the links.
So, I may have over torqued to begin with if that's a TTY bolt.
I was working from of a Chilton's Manual which does say 30 ft/lb plus 90 deg. So that's what I tried to do. It yielded after about 1/4 turn. I used a beam style torque wrench even thought I had just calibrated my clicker.
Wonder if I can pull the bolt and just replace that? Just read in your link about how to test the hole.
Now that I know how to get that passenger side motor mount bracket out. That was a bear until I jacked the engine up some more.
Does that lower roller bolt go through into the water jacket?
I am familiar with Keenserts and Helicoils since I just repaired an engine cover retaining post in the intake manifold with a Helicoil. Never heard of a Time-sert. Will check that out.
 

jwpatches

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Location
Enumclaw, WA
TDI
03, Golf
Not having a car payment is worth a lot to me, along with the great mileage this TDI gets when working right.
Thanks for the VCDS offer. I'll keep that in mind as the time grows closer.
I want to be confident of these repairs, first.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I don't need a lecture ........

So, for what it is worth, on the YTT bolts (which I think suck), I never go the full 90 degrees after the initial torque (except the crankshaft bolt)..... mainly because my skinny arms and less than average back muscles do not have the ability. Although I do not work on cars for a living, I've changed a lot of TBs on ALH and BEW engines.... some of them three times. Not one has come back with a broken bolt nor stripped bolt holes..

The serpentine belt tensioner bolts (two short, one long) are in aluminum that has far less strength than the mount bolt holes. So, I never torque those bolts with a torque wrench. I use a regular ratchet and go by "feel" with my skinny arms. Not one has loosened nor have I stripped threads.

It amazes me the number of Oil Pan plug bolts that appear damaged and extremely hard to break loose.... just unbelievably tight, which explains why so many end up stripped. No excuse for stripping the oil drain plug bolt hole, period. Insane !

Here are some pics of how I handled the center bolt on an ALH crankshaft seal replacement.... (all comments above pics)

Below, crankshaft/TB sprocket and center bolt (never use an air gun on this bolt, loosening or tightening)



Below, home-made holding bar and breaker bar with cheater bar. You can also see that the Big Roller and bolt have been removed ... I never fully torque that bolt to spec....... bust those threads and you are screwed.



Below, pic showing the length of the cheater bar. After torqueing the center bolt to spec, I did the 90 degrees in increments using the cheater bar...



And, below is a look at the leaky seal before removal



And, below is a look at everything back together including the "new" center bolt which is ready for torqueing ..



I agree with UhOh, that large roller bolt issue should not be ignored.......... best to go back and see what's going on.....
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I'll make sure to "feel" as I'm torquing/applying the final angular turn. This saved me once from stripping a hole on the transmission mount (to the frame, I believe).

I'll expose myself here, a bit, in telling of my adventure with my first TB job, done on my car (in the middle of winter -rainy, not snowy, but wet AND cold, outside under a makeshift canopy, on an gravel surface). I struggled to catch the initial torque on the large roller bolt; I over-torqued this spec. I knew I wasn't over-tight, but wasn't sure how tight I was, and I did NOT want to try and apply that 1/4 turn to find the bolt stripping on me! I started tightening a bit more and then decide to just stop. I was now straddling the creek! I checked the torque and found that I was at 44 ft-lbs. Talked to a local shop that had done many of these TBs and a guy (who, I believe once worked for a torque wrench company) said that that torque should be fine. I took a similar bolt and threaded on a nut and ran the torque to 44 ft-lbs and found that it wasn't stripping- I could torque a bit more (can't recall how much, but it didn't seem like it was very much more) and could then start to feel the thread contact starting to yield. I wasn't comfortable with this but decided that I'd rather go with it than pull things back apart: I was worried about the possibility of messing something else up in the process of redoing everything: I also had to battle a bad engine mount- installed some Time-Serts. That was about 45k miles ago. I'm not quite out of the woods yet: only if I make it to the next scheduled TB change will I be able to say that 44 ft-lbs is a capable, though not recommended, torque value!

If you resolve this properly you won't have to be looking over your shoulder (as I have been doing- though less and less as time and miles go by). In your case it sounds like there is clearly insufficient torquing/holding power for that bolt. If I had run into what you have then I for sure wouldn't have just "went with it." Stripped threads are a lot weaker than something that may be a bit under-torqued.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Wow! UhOh, I've done work in a drafty barn in the dead of winter, but nothing outside under a makeshift canopy or the like. I've helped a few friends in those conditions... like bringing over some good Bourbon and portable heat of some sort.


Well, here's one for you....

About 6 or 7 years ago, a guy with a 2000 or 2001 Passat 1.8T (yeah, the ones that VW had to do a recall due to a class action lawsuit), brought the car to my uncle's garage....

Long story short, chain jumped on Exhaust Cam but not enough to hit valves.

Removal of the valve cover revealed loads of baked-on oil/debris (search 1.8T engines early 2000s and Audis). We dropped the oil pan and found the oil pickup tube screen tightly plugged with debris as well as loads of sludge. (Something to do with too small of an oil pan, wrong oils spec by VW and the heat from the Turbo.)

So, at the dude's direction, we installed a new oil pump, gaskets, timing chain kit, timing belt kit, etc.

Here's the rest of the story.......... he ask us to remove one or more of the rod bearing caps to see if there was damage to the rod bearings. They looked okay (only removed one). So, we re-installed the rod bearing cap and used the same bolts (TTY bolts) (at his direction)... As best I can remember, I torqued just shy of spec (feel) and stopped there.

Now, fast forward to today... he's still driving the car.

So, I guess the moral of the story is, you might get away with under torqued bolts (and re-used ones too), but stripped threads will surely let you down.

Again, I recommend going back in and see what's happened.
 
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UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Here was my adventure:


This past winter I did a full suspension refresh of the daughter's wagon. IN my new garage :D Though I had next to no electricity at the time (one outlet) and no heat, it was MILES better!

I look back at a lot of things I've done and wonder how I managed. A sense of urgency often times provides more motivation than would otherwise be able to be conjured up.
 

jwpatches

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Location
Enumclaw, WA
TDI
03, Golf
Working on the serpentine tensioner bolt. I'm trying to repair with a helicoil Cannot find any info on what the tap size should be to install the helicoil to fix the 8X1.25 thread. Drill size is 11/64ths
Anybody know?
 

jwpatches

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Location
Enumclaw, WA
TDI
03, Golf
Ok, I figured it out. Measured the OD of the Helicoil. Matched that with my taps and it turned out to be a 10X1.25. The Helicoil is a bit bigger than the tap, but the Helicoil compresses upon installation.
Removed the windshield washer fluid tank, loosened a clamp that allowed an AC pipe to move a little and drilled out the hole with an 11/64th drill. Then inserted the Helicoil and broke off the tab with a punch.
Hole is back to an 8X1.25. Amazingly, I already had the Helicoils.
Just don't remember what I used them on before.
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=76249

Large roller is listed as being 30 ft-lbs plus 1/4 turn.

Serpentine tensioner bolts 18ft-lbs. There are several bolts. A bit tricky to torque.

The engine mount bolts are now 74ft-lbs, period. The mounts are known to strip after a several TB changes. If they are taking full torque then you're likely fine.

I don't think you ought to really run this engine with that large TB roller bolt issue. Probably not what you want to hear, but if this thing lets loose you'll be looking at shelling out additional thousands of dollars (trashed head).

When it comes time to plug VCDS into the car and if you don't have anyone nearby then PM me (I'm east of Arlington): my availability for the foreseeable future is really tight, but would try and accommodate if possible.

Your car is worth what someone will pay for it. It's worth whatever value to you that you think it is. My cars wouldn't fetch on the market what they're worth to me, but that matters not because I'm not selling.
That is not true for the 16mm headed bolts that go to the frame. You are referring to the 2 bolts with 18mm heads that thread into the mount bracket.

Torque values:
The big bolts was 44ft lbs plus 1/4 turn, now 74ft lbs.
16mm bolts is 30 ft-lb + 1/4 turn
 
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Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
Here was my adventure:


This past winter I did a full suspension refresh of the daughter's wagon. IN my new garage :D Though I had next to no electricity at the time (one outlet) and no heat, it was MILES better!

I look back at a lot of things I've done and wonder how I managed. A sense of urgency often times provides more motivation than would otherwise be able to be conjured up.
I have a 10x10 Pop-Up just for stuff like this but for many years I had nothing. I've resealed IP's in Wal-Mart parking lots, done timing belts in muddy driveways, and even scabbed together an exhaust by running my welder off a suitcase generator. I still have the insulated coveralls I'd wear after shoveling the snow from around the car to do stuff like ball joints and tie rid ends or bearings. I'm glad those good ole days are behind me now. While the new garage isn't heated it is light years beyond where I was for a long time.
 
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UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
That is not true for the 16mm headed bolts that go to the frame. You are referring to the 2 bolts with 18mm heads that thread into the mount bracket.

Torque values:
The big bolts was 44ft lbs plus 1/4 turn, now 74ft lbs.
16mm bolts is 30 ft-lb + 1/4 turn
Sorry, yes, I was NOT referring to the ones that go to the frame (I thought that I'd mentioned that in my previous post?).
 

jwpatches

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Location
Enumclaw, WA
TDI
03, Golf
I have a 10x10 Pop-Up just for stuff like this but for many years I had nothing. I've resealed IP's in Wal-Mart parking lots, done timing belts in muddy driveways, and even scabbed together an exhaust by running my welder off a suitcase generator. I still have the insulated coveralls I'd wear after shoveling the snow from around the car to do stuff like ball joints and tie rid ends or bearings. I'm glad those good ole days are behind me now. While the new garage user heated it is light years beyond where I was for a long time.
I, too am glad those days are behind me. I have a heated garage to work in now and it's a blessing.
 
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