Another Disbenefit to NOx Emission Reductions Discovered

wxman · Jun 23, 2017

As has been discussed on this board many times, it has been known for decades that large reductions in NOx emissions in certain locations can lead to an increase in ambient ozone levels ("weekend effect"). This mostly occurs in large metropolitan areas.

A paper just published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences shows that reductions in ambient NOx levels can lead to increases in formation of secondary particulate matter (secondary organic aerosols - SOA).

Abstract:

On-road gasoline vehicles are a major source of secondary organic aerosol (SOA) in urban areas. We investigated SOA formation by oxidizing dilute, ambient-level exhaust concentrations from a fleet of on-road gasoline vehicles in a smog chamber. We measured less SOA formation from newer vehicles meeting more stringent emissions standards. This suggests that the natural replacement of older vehicles with newer ones that meet more stringent emissions standards should reduce SOA levels in urban environments. However, SOA production depends on both precursor concentrations (emissions) and atmospheric chemistry (SOA yields). We found a strongly nonlinear relationship between SOA formation and the ratio of nonmethane organic gas to oxides of nitrogen (NOx) (NMOG:NOx), which affects the fate of peroxy radicals. For example, changing the NMOG:NOx from 4 to 10 ppbC/ppbNOx increased the SOA yield from dilute gasoline vehicle exhaust by a factor of 8. We investigated the implications of this relationship for the Los Angeles area. Although organic gas emissions from gasoline vehicles in Los Angeles are expected to fall by almost 80% over the next two decades, we predict no reduction in SOA production from these emissions due to the effects of rising NMOG:NOx on SOA yields. This highlights the importance of integrated emission control policies for NOx and organic gases.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/06/13/1620911114.abstract

Thus regulators need to evaluate their approach to NOx and VOC emission controls carefully.

2015vwgolfdiesel · Jun 23, 2017

Polite fully,

This means what?

wxman · Jun 23, 2017

Reducing NOx emissions relatively more than VOC (NMOG) emissions will produce more ambient PM.

wxman · Jun 23, 2017

Here is an article discussing SOA:

http://health.heraldtribune.com/201...n-reveal-a-hidden-danger-to-hearts-and-lungs/

turbocharged798 · Jun 24, 2017

2015vwgolfdiesel said:
Polite fully,

This means what?

The EPA's NOx regulations are a joke and nothing but propaganda.

wxman · Jun 25, 2017

At the very least, regulators should be/should have been focusing on VOC emission reductions more than NOx emission reductions instead of the other way around.

ZippyNH · Jun 25, 2017

wxman said:
At the very least, regulators should be/should have been focusing on VOC emission reductions more than NOx emission reductions instead of the other way around.

Do things like regulate motorcycles that pump out more emissions in a few weekends a year than a car does in years?
Naww... makes too much sense.

firehawk618 · Jun 25, 2017

What about killing a diesels economy for the sake of reduced tail pipe emissions?

At what point does the higher consumption of fuel cancel out said tail pipe emissions savings?

2015vwgolfdiesel · Jun 26, 2017

firehawk618 said:
What about killing a diesels economy for the sake of reduced tail pipe emissions?

At what point does the higher consumption of fuel cancel out said tail pipe emissions savings?

It's out of your (and my) hands.

The power brokers are the ones we have voted for.

Kevinski4 · Jun 26, 2017

The other NOX disbenefit has caused us to CRUSH THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND FUEL EFFICIENT CARS.

BleachedBora · Jun 26, 2017

Kevinski4 said:
The other NOX disbenefit has caused us to CRUSH THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND FUEL EFFICIENT CARS.

Final tally according to my sources will probably be 400,000. If a fix isn't approved...

2015vwgolfdiesel · Jun 27, 2017

BleachedBora said:
Final tally according to my sources will probably be 400,000. If a fix isn't approved...

That is the dark side of it. Of the (approx) 500,000 units to start with we will have only about 100K left remaining.

Of those 100K units they are subject to attrition. Mileage, wear and tear, wrecks ... well you get the idea.

Then it all boils down to fewer and fewer remaining VW 2L units.

Fixed GEN 3 units also have a 162,000 warranty.

They won't go up in price, but (me thinks) they will depreciate slowly

oilhammer · Jun 27, 2017

Well it seems there is no secret that the regulations are not in favor of fuel efficiency. At all. But neither is the bulk of the buying public's purchase choices.

It is like the mouse I found in my uncle's cabin that chewed a hole into the plastic lid of a jar of pork rinds. The jar was full...when he got in. But he ate himself down so far, he could not climb out. So he was stuck. But with plenty of food. He continued to eat, until he died in a pile of his own poo at the bottom of the jar.

We KNOW what we SHOULD do, we just won't do it. And some of us that at least try to make wis(er) decisions get those choices taken away. No, you cannot buy your 50 MPG Volkswagen, but rest assured you can buy as many 15 MPG Chevy Silverados as you like. One rolls off the assembly line about every 45 seconds.

2015vwgolfdiesel · Jun 27, 2017

oilhammer said:
.... snip....
We KNOW what we SHOULD do, we just won't do it. And some of us that at least try to make wis(er) decisions get those choices taken away. No, you cannot buy your 50 MPG Volkswagen, but rest assured you can buy as many 15 MPG Chevy Silverados as you like. One rolls off the assembly line about every 45 seconds.

The quick and the dead

for Swift buyers there is still a limited few *new* TDIs out there.

But also there are used units to be had ... as they come back on the after market

n1das · Jun 27, 2017

turbocharged798 said:
The EPA's NOx regulations are a joke and nothing but propaganda.

They are not a joke. They are they are the law of the land (unfortunately).

n1das · Jun 27, 2017

wxman said:
At the very least, regulators should be/should have been focusing on VOC emission reductions more than NOx emission reductions instead of the other way around.

What wxman said.

I will gladly take high NOx from an emissions cheating CR TDI any day while having significantly LOWER emissions compared to the gassers in all other emissions categories.

I know I'm preachin' to the choir here.

2015vwgolfdiesel · Jun 28, 2017

n1das said:
They are not a joke. They are they are the law of the land (unfortunately).

Yes,

They (CARB EPA etc.) are the law

First I was ticked off, but now all is well.

Thanks to *them*, the CAS lawyers, and the people who discovered the cheating

wxman · Jun 28, 2017

2015vwgolfdiesel said:
Yes,

They (CARB EPA etc.) are the law

First I was ticked off, but now all is well.

Thanks to *them*, the CAS lawyers, and the people who discovered the cheating

Your 2015 TDI probably doesn't actually have NOx emissions that are much, if any, above the regulatory limit (FTP), according to comprehensive testing by CARB ("special driving cycles and conditions that may reasonably be expected to be encountered in normal operation and use"):

The "emissions after repair" of 2015 TDIs puts the NOx emissions near SULEV levels (0.02 g/mi) according to the graphic.

So diesels are capable of achieving very low NOx emissions. The question is how much does that really help from an air quality perspective?

2015vwgolfdiesel · Jun 28, 2017

So diesels are capable of achieving very low NOx emissions. The question is how much does that really help from an air quality perspective?

Not much

All I can say is that I am a happy camper

I get to keep my car (with the fix) and get paid well to do it.

Oilerlord · Jun 29, 2017

Kevinski4 said:
The other NOX disbenefit has caused us to CRUSH THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND FUEL EFFICIENT CARS.

Not yet. Their fate is TBD. They are being stored in various locations such as ports, decomissioned airforce bases, and the abandoned Pontiac Silverdome in Detroit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=J05b95lpaUk

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-stashed-hundreds-of-cheating-diesels-in-an-a-1791535662

meerschm · Jun 29, 2017

seems like VW met the deadline for submission of a fix for gen one cars, which is still in testing.

the decision to fix or dispose is still pending.

hey_allen · Jun 29, 2017

I've drooled a few times over the lot about 3/4 mile from my home, full of various late model TDIs.

I don't own anything newer than my Mk4, but would definitely be willing to do my part to help with fuel economy and drive one of them, given the right prices!

Marcb · Jun 29, 2017

There is a local salvage yard near me in Olympia that has been commissioned by VW to crush the CR cars. All they can remove are the tires and wheels. Everything, and I mean everything, is crushed flat. What a sad waste!

mikew85120 · Jul 1, 2017

all fine and well

The EPA mandated fix has been done on my 2014 Passat. I was just on a trip and noticed that the semi trucks had stickers stating 'certified clean idle'. My Passat did that before the fix, where is my sticker?

piotrsko · Jul 3, 2017

you're not a commercial vehicle and so don't get one. Those are there for out of state trucks being allowed into CA as emissions compliant.

tikal · Jul 3, 2017

oilhammer said:
Well it seems there is no secret that the regulations are not in favor of fuel efficiency. At all. But neither is the bulk of the buying public's purchase choices.

It is like the mouse I found in my uncle's cabin that chewed a hole into the plastic lid of a jar of pork rinds. The jar was full...when he got in. But he ate himself down so far, he could not climb out. So he was stuck. But with plenty of food. He continued to eat, until he died in a pile of his own poo at the bottom of the jar.

We KNOW what we SHOULD do, we just won't do it. And some of us that at least try to make wis(er) decisions get those choices taken away. No, you cannot buy your 50 MPG Volkswagen, but rest assured you can buy as many 15 MPG Chevy Silverados as you like. One rolls off the assembly line about every 45 seconds.

Thanks Brian for putting a fair balanced statement on this topic.

"It takes two to tango": The EPA/CARB make it the bar higher and higher for light duty diesel vehicles (as compared to gasoline vehicle counterparts) and the general American consumer is more than happy to keep buying larger and larger gasoline vehicles (SUVs/trucks) driven primarily as single occupant daily drivers for non-commercial use (not much cargo/load on the average).

And if the price of fuel cost is still relatively low and the CAFE standards are relaxed, even less light duty diesel passenger cars (non-luxury) will be available!

2015vwgolfdiesel · Jul 4, 2017

tikal said:
.....snip....
.....and the general American consumer is more than happy to keep buying larger and larger gasoline vehicles (SUVs/trucks) driven primarily as single occupant daily drivers for non-commercial use (not much cargo/load on the average).....snip....

During my working days (retired now) I owned a 3/4 ton van to acquire, and transport my wares -- ladies, children's clothing

In a typical year we would handle about 40,000 garments In a one year time frame the unit was hauling goods about 50-60 days.

We both (wife and I) used it a a daily driver, as needed. We had 3 Accords, and one Civic at that time. She choose to use the van as a driver, more than me.

To save on fuel, we could not own a work van, and 2 new-ish gas sippers.

Rembrant · Jul 6, 2017

oilhammer said:
We KNOW what we SHOULD do, we just won't do it. And some of us that at least try to make wis(er) decisions get those choices taken away. No, you cannot buy your 50 MPG Volkswagen, but rest assured you can buy as many 15 MPG Chevy Silverados as you like. One rolls off the assembly line about every 45 seconds.

Man, that drives me crazy. I can look past a lot of things in this world, but the amount of people driving around alone, hauling nothing, in full size V8 pickups day in and day out just drives me nuts.

Blue_Hen_TDI · Jul 6, 2017

Rembrant said:
Man, that drives me crazy. I can look past a lot of things in this world, but the amount of people driving around alone, hauling nothing, in full size V8 pickups day in and day out just drives me nuts.

And most of them where I live are now installing bright ass led light bars on their jacked up hickmobiles right smack in the center of their front bumpers at my eye level.

Yee haw.

I just constant high beam them on general principle.

oilhammer · Jul 7, 2017

Agreed, it is pretty appalling. And I know a LOT of people like that. Heck, I work with people like that.

My F150 stays at home 95% of the time, and is only used when I need a truck. And it gets by just fine with its base 145hp 6cyl. And now that I have the Sprinter, that need is probably reduced even more. But given its 21 years old, is in near perfect shape (was stored in a garage never moved from 2000 to 2015), I am keeping just because of its semi-classic status, and I like it.

But for everyday driving, my 50+ MPG NOx-spewing evil Volkswagen will do just fine.

Another Disbenefit to NOx Emission Reductions Discovered

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