Passat B5 starts and idles but no throttle

todo

Active member
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Location
santa cruz, ca
TDI
passat b5/passat b4
I have a 2005 Passat B5.5 TDI wagon with 140,000 miles that starts readily and idles at 650rpm. When I step on the gas pedal NOTHING happens- as if the gas pedal were not connected. On VCDS the throttle is detected and shows the full range from 0-100%. On Autoscan there are no codes except those indicating that the TCM is missing.
I acquired the car in September and the engine started and ran perfectly. The automatic transmission was toast and so I started down the road of swapping in a manual transmission (FHN). BTW many thanks to all of you in this forum who shared their experience and knowledge. I also decided to do the timing belt and BSM delete and so decided to do the tranny swap by pulling the engine and tranny out together. While I had the engine out I also replaced the tandem pump gasket and the coolant manifold and coolant temp sensor. All went smoothly until I tried to start the car.
This is where it gets a little complicated and I'm not sure this is even relevant to my current problem but at this point I won't make any assumptions. I contacted a Malone dealer here in California to flash my ECU for the manual trans and a Stage 2 tune. Long story short he screwed it up and the ECU was completely unresponsive. I sent it back to Malone who took full responsibility for their dealer's screw-up; they re-flashed my ECU, but it was still unresponsive. So I buy another ECU from a wrecking yard, send it to Malone, which they re-flash and delete the immobilizer. So now car starts (for the first time) but idles for a few seconds and then turns off. Immobilizer issue? So I take the ECU to a different Malone dealer here in the Bay Area and they delete the immobilizer delete (ie immobilizer is now activated) which results in the car not starting at all and VCDS showing many codes indicating multiple modules failing to communicate with the ECU- almost identical to the very first time I tried to start the car. So last week I sent both ECUs back to Malone and they flashed both ECUs with their original files (stock tune/automatic transmission) and now the car starts, idles, But has zero throttle response.
I have checked all fuses multiple times. I also replaced the 219 main relay and crankshaft position sensor with new OEM parts (part of the process when car wouldn't start at all). ECU, glow plug, and immobilizer dash lamps light up when turning the key on but are off when car is idling.
Frankly, I'm a more than a tad frustrated and would greatly appreciate any and all input from this forum.

Here's my most recent Autoscan:
Thursday,01,December,2016,10:28:39:45368
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows XP x86
VCDS Version: 16.8.3.1
Data version: 20161010 DS267.0
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: WVWCE63B95E126365 License Plate:
Mileage: 225040km-139833mi Repair Order: 12/1/16



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3B (3B - VW Passat B5 (1997 > 2005))
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 35 36 37 46 47 55 56 57 58 75 76 77


VIN: WVWCE63B95E126365 Mileage: 225040km-139833miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-016-BHW.lbl
Part No SW: 038 997 016 N HW: 028 101 198 2
Component: R4 2,0L EDC G000AG 1388
Revision: 12345678 Serial number: VWZ7Z0D1256844
Coding: 0150034
Shop #: WSC 06526 444 84896
VCID: 2952F06083481A0ACB-513C

1 Fault Found:
18034 - Powertrain Data Bus
P1626 - 000 - Missing Message from TCU
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Torque: 214.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 12.54 V
Bin. Bits: 00001000
Bin. Bits: 00000000
Bin. Bits: 10000100

Readiness: 1 1 1 0 1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 4B0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 4B0 614 517 G
Component: ABS/ESP front 3428
Coding: 04255
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 254AFC50BF503E6AEF-513C

3 Faults Found:
18034 - Powertrain Data Bus
P1626 - 35-00 - Missing Message from TCU
18055 - Check Coding of ECUs on Powertrain Data Bus
P1647 - 35-00 -
01119 - Gear Recognition Signal
35-10 - - - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
Part No: 1C0 909 605 C
Component: 09 AIRBAG VW61 04 0003
Coding: 12345
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 244CE154B46AC762F8-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 1J0-907-487-A.lbl
Part No: 1J0 907 487 A
Component: Lenkradelektronik 0005
Coding: 00118
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 2F661E78EDAC743A15-515A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3B0-920-xx5-17.lbl
Part No: 3B0 920 929 C
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V07
Coding: 15235
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 2756F658C55C2C7ADD-5120
WVWCE63B95E126365 VWZ7Z0D1256844

1 Fault Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module
49-00 - No Communications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901
Component: Gateway K<->CAN 0001
Coding: 00006
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 70E4DD0430122BC24C-5120

1 Fault Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module
49-00 - No Communications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
Component: 80 Komfortger·t HLO 0004
Coding: 00258
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 3776261815FCBCFA4D-4B18

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801
Component: 80 Tırsteuer.FS KLO 0202

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802
Component: 80 Tırsteuer.BF KLO 0202

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1C0959811
Component: 80 Tırsteuer.HL KLO 0202

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1C0959812
Component: 80 Tırsteuer.HR KLO 0202

No fault code found.

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 05:12)--------------------------
 

stamp11127

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2002 Jetta GLS 2003 Jetta 5sp 2005 Passat Wagon 5sp project
Did you start the car after the swap but before the tune or have all attempts been after the tune?
TPS range is verified with engine running or off?
Plug the tcm back in if possible - you never know. . . .
 
Last edited:

todo

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santa cruz, ca
TDI
passat b5/passat b4
I tried to start the car for the first time after the swap AND tune were completed. The TPS range was verified with the car idling. I did plug the TCM back in and no change. I'm leaning towards some issue with the injectors. It seems that if the ECU is receiving the TPS signal then the next step in fueling is to send a signal to the fuel injectors, no? I plan to closely examine the wiring and grounds associated with the injectors tomorrow.
 

stamp11127

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Check the plug/harness for the injectors at the back of the block. Harness may have been pinched during the trans install.
 

todo

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santa cruz, ca
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passat b5/passat b4
Thanks. That's first on my list this morning. Do you know if there are any fuses or grounds specific to the injectors?
 

stamp11127

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2002 Jetta GLS 2003 Jetta 5sp 2005 Passat Wagon 5sp project
From what I remember, no fuses to the iinjectors.I can look at the diagrams when I get back home this afternoon to be sure. I would expect they are protected by FETs in the ecu.

Seeing that the engine & trans where removed as a unit it is very possible the problem may lie with the plug at the back of the head.
 

owr084

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Oct 20, 2004
Location
Northern Virginia (NoVA)
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Passat GLS, 2005, Stonehenge Gray
CKP - crankshaft position sensor. It is located down on the block on the driver's side past the oil cooler. If the sensor is damaged, or the wires broken, it will not let the car stay running. It will also not set a fault code. Also, normally a BHW idles at 903 rpm or so. Did you have your idle reprogrammed in the ECU?
 

todo

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santa cruz, ca
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passat b5/passat b4
CKP is new, replaced when engine re-installed. I also read somewhere that engine won't even start if the CKP is bad(?) According to Malone they re-installed the original stock tuning so idle should be at factory setting. I don't know how these injectors work but I'm wondering if there is a small amount of fuel that can get through even if they are "off-line" or not communicating with the ECU. Presumably the tandem pump is generating pressure and if the injectors allow a small amount of fuel through (less than what is needed to idle at 903rpm) it could explain the low idle and support my feeling that the problem is related to some fault with the ECU-injector connection/communication.????? I'm headed out to look at it right now.
 

stamp11127

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owr084

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Passat GLS, 2005, Stonehenge Gray
When my ckp was going bad, it still allowed the car to start. If you let it go to idle, with no throttke, it would die. That was especially annoying with a manual when you put the clutch in to cast to a stop. Once I started messing with the wires and the sensor, it would only allow a brief start and then due.
 

todo

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santa cruz, ca
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passat b5/passat b4
I just examined the injector harness closely including checking continuity back to the ECU. All checks out fine. So much for that theory. I then started the car after putting everything back together and it behaved a little differently. On starting it would idle at 600ish for a couple of seconds, then quickly pick up rpms until they hit 1000 at which point it would suddenly drop down to 500rpm and run incredibly rough. I repeated this several times with the exact same results. No CEL and the Autoscan was unchanged, with only codes showing that the TCM was missing.
 

stamp11127

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I would check the harnesses again. The fact of disturbing them resulted in different engine behavior isn't supposed to happen. Also take a close look at the pins for the ecu. Did you have to repin any of the connectors for the swap?
 
Last edited:

todo

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passat b5/passat b4
Yes, I agree. I'll recheck it tomorrow. The only re-pin I did was for the clutch switch per Chrismak, http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=420182&page=2 see post#30. I'm not feeling especially confident about my ECU. I outlined what it went through in my opening post. Basically the original ECU is toast probably as a result of screwing up the first tune. The ECU I'm using now has been flashed several times by Malone (from a wrecking yard in Canada- was it functioning properly before Malone got it? who knows?) The first time with the manual/stage 2 tune and immobilizer delete. The car would start but would shut down after 3 seconds. It seemed like the immobilizer was still active and shutting the car down. Then it was flashed again by a local Malone dealer to reactivate the immobilizer (I knew the PIN so I could use VCDS and synch with the immobilizer). This tune wouldn't allow the car to start at all and there were numerous codes for ECU not communicating with other modules. So I sent it back to Malone and they re-flashed it to the original tune which is the current version I'm using now. So it's been messed with a few times and given that my first ECU was definitely screwed up by the tuning I'm starting to wonder about this ECU too. Any thoughts about that? I'm tempted to get another ECU that hasn't been messed with at all.
 

stamp11127

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Another ecu that hasn't been tuned would determine if the problem is in the Malone tuned ecu's. If it turns out the ecu is bad it would be interesting to hear what they have to say. I had planned on using them for a tune on mine once I completed the swap but now I'm going to hold off until this problem is resolved.
 

Windex

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Location
Cambridge
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05 B5V 01E FRF
A stock ECU on a BHW will start and drive if converted to a manual, it will just light up the dash like a Christmas tree. That is assuming the ECU and cluster are mated and you are not fighting the IMMO again.
 

todo

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passat b5/passat b4
I re-checked the harnesses and all seems good. I ordered a used ECU yesterday and hopefully will see it later this week.
 

todo

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passat b5/passat b4
I just reflashed the ECU with a Stage 2 Tune and manual transmission program from TD tuning. Car starts and idles roughly at 500 rpm as before the re-flash. In other words no change from the problem as described on my first post. ***? Any more ideas?
 

stamp11127

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Three ecm's that "fail" indicate the problem is something else (rather obvious I know). The only thing disturbed has been the injector harness and ecm connector. Check both with a meter and disconnected from the ecm - you don't want to apply power from the meter to the ecm.

I don't inow if you are able to see the injector signal in vcds but that would be another thing I would try. What signal is being sent to the injectors & what are the injectors receiving? Ross-Tech may be able to help with where to look.
In my past life working on Navistar 7.3's, I would take a real close look at the injector harnesses and run a contribution test since the input is from software and not the tps.
 
Last edited:

todo

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passat b5/passat b4
the connector and the injector harness check out. i'm not sure that's the issue as the engine is getting some fuel to run albeit only for a few seconds. it's consistently starting, running for a couple of seconds at 400-500rpm, and then it gradually increases over 1-2 seconds until it gets to 900-1000rpm at which point the engine shuts down. i can restart it immediately and it does the same thing again.
i actually haven't been able to try the 3rd ECU as i don't have the PIN to adapt the immo and it turns out it has a different processor in it (per Mike at TD Tuning). so i guess the ECU is not entirely ruled out.
 

stamp11127

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Another forum I'm on, a member had a similar problem after he swapped the auto trans for another auto. After multiple pages of members trying to help him he lets everyone know he finally solved it. He failed to mention that during the process of swapping trans he added a "hot air intake" and had the MAF installed backwards. It wouldn't hurt to go back over all the connections and make sure they are correct and seated properly. When you find it, it will be something stupid and overlooked at the beginning.
 

todo

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Update: I've checked and re-checked all connections and still no change. I'm back to suspecting my ECU and am in the process of getting a recycled one to try. It does seem like the engine is shutting down electronically versus a problem with the fuel system itself. I've consulted several other TDI "experts" and have left them scratching their heads too. Hope to try the new ECU alter this week.
 

stamp11127

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Checked with the Master Tech diesel God concerning your problem. He said to check the MAF readings since that can produce a no throttle response but allow it to idle. I have no idea what block that would be in vcds....
 

todo

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I just tried a different ECU and it made NO difference. At least I'm confident the problem isn't with the ECU. If anyone needs a new ECU that's had the immobilizer deleted I have one for sale. I guess next step is to check MAF. The sad saga continues. Any fresh input would be much appreciated.
 

todo

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Something very different happened this morning. When I previously tested the new ECU I started the car and just ran it long enough to see that it idles at 5-600 rpm and there was still no throttle response.
This morning, I started the car and let it idle roughly at around 500rpm for some time. As the car gradually warmed up the rpm increased slowly (there was still no throttle response). The rpm continued to increase until it reached 1000rpm and stabilized. Then it suddenly dropped down to 860 and continued to idle smoothly AND at this point there was throttle response. The engine temp was 53C. I was also watching engine MB003 and noticed that before the idle stabilized the specified MAF was 850 and the actual MAF was 480 at 690rpm. At 1000 rpm specified was 680, actual was 430-450 and still no throttle response. When the rpm stabilized at 860rpm the specified MAF 475 and actual was 440 AND this was the point where the throttle started to respond. Does this indicate a faulty MAFnd could this be the primary problem causing my throttle issue?
Out of curiosity I put the old ECU back in and tried to start it. The car started immediately and instead of idling at 500 rpm, it jumped right up to 900 and immediately shut down. It seems that because the car was warmed up it went right to the rpm that has shut it down in the past. There were 2 codes at the engine address: 18009 and 19794. It seems that this ECU is in fact damaged or something went wrong with the flash.
 

todo

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I just ran the test of unplugging the MAF. No change. When it's idling roughly at low rpm the specified MAF is around 850 both when the MAF is plugged in and unplugged.
 

todo

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This evening I ran the engine again and saw a similar scenario as this morning. Slowly increasing idle until it kicked up suddenly to 1000 rpm and then dropped down to 860. No throttle response until it got to 860rpm. However, when the throttle did start to work, as soon as I depressed it, the engine dropped down to 500 rpm and idled roughly. The specified MAF would jump from 450 to 850 when I stepped on the throttle corresponding to the drop in rpm. I could restart the car and repeat this several times. And, now there is a dtc- 16486, MAF G70 signal too low. Tomorrow I'll get into the sensor and check the wiring harness.
 

todo

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I guess I don't understand the relationship between "specified" and "actual" in the 003 measuring block. What I observed is that when there was a large difference between the two (850 specified, 450 actual) the car idled roughly at low rpm and when the idle stabilized at 860 rpm the specified and actual were almost the same ( 460 and 440 respectively). It was at that point that the engine responded to the throttle. When I stepped on the gas the specified jumped up to 850 and the actual remained at 450 which made the engine idle roughly at 500 again. I was reading about this in the following link:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/maf-sensor-faq-troubleshooting-replacement-vw-audi-tdi-diesel/
There's a VCDS screen shot near the bottom that looks remarkably similar to what I'm seeing. It says "Bad MAF" on it and the specified/actual values are 840/485. It seems like when there's such a large difference between specified and actual that there's a problem either with the MAF itself or the wiring. No?
 

todo

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passat b5/passat b4
Thanks for your input. I hear what you're saying about MAF but it doesn't seem as if the fuel supply is the problem either. Here's why:
I started the car today with the new ECU. It started immediately and idled roughly at about 500 rpm. Then in the first few seconds the idle picked up to about 1000rpm and then abruptly dropped back down to the rough 500rpm "idle". It staggered along like this for about 10 minutes while it very slowly increased the rpm. The whole time there is zero throttle response. Then suddenly it smooths out at 860 rpm and suddenly there is NORMAL throttle response. I can rev the engine to just below redline and then it returns to 860rpm, idling smoothly. I think it would have idled like that until it ran out of diesel. So once it settles into its smooth idle and it starts responding to the throttle there doesn't seem to be any problem with fueling.
There does seem to be some correlation between coolant temp and the increasing idle and the point where it stabilizes at 860rpm. The 3 times that it has done this it seems to happen when the coolant temp is about 52-56C. Is there some temp sensor that may be affecting things?
The Specified MAF while it was idling roughly was about 850. At smooth idle it was around 250. The MAF while starting was consistently 500. As you said there was no difference if the MAF was connected or not.
The mystery continues.
 
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