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VW MKIII-A3/B4 TDIs This is a discussion about MKIII-A3/MkIII Jetta/Golf (<99.5) and B4 Passats (96,97) TDI's. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

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Old July 2nd, 2020, 18:16   #1
genscripter
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Default Retarded the Timing, too much Boost

The other day, I got a 00550 - Start of Injection Regulation 17-10 - Control Difference - Intermittent code. I decided to check my timing, and it was on the upper bound of advanced, just grazing the line. I bumped the IP down to dead on center, and took the car for a drive on the highway.

Oddly, the performance wasn't that much better, but the boost was probably double. I was getting around 12psi just half throttle up gradual hills.

I think my power issues are related to an old diesel filter, so I'm going to change that out and see if my power issues subside.

I also have an issue with that sensor that informs my ECU about excess boost. Currently, I've been driving under 12psi to make sure it doesn't put my ECU in limp mode. Does anyone know the part number for that sensor so I can replace it?
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Old July 2nd, 2020, 19:12   #2
Mongler98
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1st off, can you clarify something please
Stock boost is like 15psi. Your running double your normal boost at 12? So you only run normally 6psi? Your wording is a little confusing.
Why are you running so low on boost?
Its perfectly fine to run on the top end of the graph especially if you run a lower QA. I ran 17psi at 1.4IQ on the stock nozzles and turbo with the line at the top of the graph. Ran really good. Still got into the 44mpg average so imo it makes no difference.
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Old July 2nd, 2020, 23:57   #3
genscripter
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Yeah, I was getting about 6psi at half throttle back with the timing at the top of the graph. Now with it on center, I get twice that.
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Old July 3rd, 2020, 02:55   #4
Mongler98
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Half throttle means nothing. What rpms? Also vcds cant display the timing graph unless the car is idle.
Sounds about right. As long as your not boost spiking!
It would be really helpful if you posted a vcds log
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Old July 7th, 2020, 12:29   #5
genscripter
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I changed the diesel filter and took the jetta for a decent drive. It was still really sluggish, and it tripped the check engine light again.

I plugged in the VCDS at home and checked the timing. It did say it was "too hot", but it showed to be within timing spec about midway through the advanced area. It shows to be "a little advanced" in the text-label at the bottom of the VCDS graph window.

It has the same 2 faults when I checked the codes.

2 Faults Found:
01117 - Generator Terminal DF Load Signal
27-00 - Implausible Signal
00550 - Start of Injection Regulation
17-10 - Control Difference - Intermittent
Readiness: N/A


I noticed that it has a strange ticking noise at higher RPM's.

It's a little odd that I timed this "dead on" and now it's halfway advanced. Maybe that's due to the "too hot" signal.
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Old July 7th, 2020, 15:02   #6
Vince Waldon
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Yup, ECU adjusts the timing w.r.t. fuel temperature (because the fuel density changes with temperature)... which is why timing best visualized as a graph.

Also note that what you are seeing is the "static" timing... the timing the ECU uses to start the car. Once the car is running the ECU takes over the timing dynamically, and all bets are off, graph-wise.

This is why monkeying with the timing does very little in terms of power, economy, etc... once the car starts it ignores the user set timing.

The exception is if the static timing is so far off mechanically that the ECU can't physically adjust the timing thru its full range electronically. People that notice a difference in power after adjusting the timing... the static "what to use when starting the car" timing... have probably just brought the overall system back into a range that the ECU can control it fully when in dynamic mode.
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Old July 7th, 2020, 19:00   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vince waldon View Post
yup, ecu adjusts the timing w.r.t. Fuel temperature (because the fuel density changes with temperature)... Which is why timing best visualized as a graph.

Also note that what you are seeing is the "static" timing... The timing the ecu uses to start the car. Once the car is running the ecu takes over the timing dynamically, and all bets are off, graph-wise.

This is why monkeying with the timing does very little in terms of power, economy, etc... Once the car starts it ignores the user set timing.

The exception is if the static timing is so far off mechanically that the ecu can't physically adjust the timing thru its full range electronically. People that notice a difference in power after adjusting the timing... The static "what to use when starting the car" timing... Have probably just brought the overall system back into a range that the ecu can control it fully when in dynamic mode.
^^^^
this
see it way too often with re seal jobs and mark and pray belt jobs!
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Old July 8th, 2020, 10:23   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince Waldon View Post
Yup, ECU adjusts the timing w.r.t. fuel temperature (because the fuel density changes with temperature)... which is why timing best visualized as a graph.

Also note that what you are seeing is the "static" timing... the timing the ECU uses to start the car. Once the car is running the ECU takes over the timing dynamically, and all bets are off, graph-wise.

This is why monkeying with the timing does very little in terms of power, economy, etc... once the car starts it ignores the user set timing.


The exception is if the static timing is so far off mechanically that the ECU can't physically adjust the timing thru its full range electronically. People that notice a difference in power after adjusting the timing... the static "what to use when starting the car" timing... have probably just brought the overall system back into a range that the ECU can control it fully when in dynamic mode.
The bolded section is what I've always believed to be true...that it doesn't do much other than impact the way the car starts. After that the ECU just says I know more about this and I'm taking over...

Steve
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Old July 8th, 2020, 11:06   #9
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You should run a log of actual versus requested fueling. You may find your IP is getting tired, and that's why you have low power. The initial fault code you found could be a symptom of a pump quantity adjustor not working correctly.
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Old July 8th, 2020, 11:09   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
You should run a log of actual versus requested fueling. You may find your IP is getting tired, and that's why you have low power. The initial fault code you found could be a symptom of a pump quantity adjustor not working correctly.
^^^^^^^^

Data is good to have, especially when there are multiple possibilities.
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Old July 8th, 2020, 11:39   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
You should run a log of actual versus requested fueling. You may find your IP is getting tired, and that's why you have low power. The initial fault code you found could be a symptom of a pump quantity adjustor not working correctly.

My IP and injectors are at 320000 miles. I'll see if I can get a log later this week.
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Old July 8th, 2020, 11:41   #12
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I'm also getting that ticking noise louder at high RPMs
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Old July 8th, 2020, 14:37   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genscripter View Post
I'm also getting that ticking noise louder at high RPMs
What's your oil psi?
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Old July 8th, 2020, 15:28   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongler98 View Post
What's your oil psi?

I have no idea. Is there a way to check through VCDS?
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Old July 8th, 2020, 16:27   #15
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Here's a video of my engine sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPkgWQgHy18
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