Dieselgate for tuned cars

honestly I don't see it working that way... if you take off the parts even though they will be crushed they might be able to reject your compensation.. (don't quote me on that)

The way I see it is if you remove your emissions equipment your car is illegal for highway use. the compensation is for the upset owners unwilling environmental assassins (LOL)... if it is off it looks like you are in it for the money (for all the right reasons)

im not against deleted cars, but don't see the reason for trying to return it like that.. I don't think it will workout in your favor..

through all the years of modifying my cars there is one life lesson learned... ALWAYS KEEP FACTORY PARTS you might need them more than ever later on...

MÄDDNESSS said:

I came here looking for this very thing.
Ive got a cr170 turbo with a malone stage 3.5 tune, buzzken 3", straighpipe TBE and a malone DSG tune.
Thankfully I kept all of my emission bs. So Im just gonna throw it back on and get the "fix" done. Then bring home and re-delete everything.
I wonder if I can talk my way out of getting the "fix" done and just take the compensation. That way I wont have to go through the hassel of putting **** back.

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Unless you remove and reinstall that waste of scrap metal yourself, I personally don't think it's worth it for what you to get it done, especially since we don't know if VW techs will also have the bright idea of flashing 23O7 or something, wiping out tunes and etc as well.

And yup - I have the same setup as you. I kept thinking - "If I do a buyback, where else can I find something that puts out over 200HP, 300 of torque, and still gets at least 32mpg when driving like it's stolen?"

Newbie21 said:

Wonder if they will accept if I return the my car with my factory dpf and egr in my trunk. At least I helped them out cause taking the factory dpf out is a *****. Lol

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Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that part of things at all. I barely got my DPF out without dropping the subframe.. doubt I'll be able to get it back in the same way.

I'm in the same boat as you guys. Malone stage 2 with Rawtek exhaust. I was and still am planning on going to the stage 3.5, CR170, S3 intercooler, and CP3 pump route. I know some people at a dealer who may be willing to "install" the new emissions system by placing it the back seat for me. I have a flashzilla and can easily reflash ecu at home.

Worst case - I opt out all together and the price for getting to keep my car is I get nothing. I would be okay with that. I'm ahead on my loan even at current post DG levels. I love the car, the low end torque, and the MPG. nothing out there gets the mileage it does while giving me the fun factor of my 14 Golf. I made the changes after DG became public and knew the risk I was assuming.

As I said I still plan on doings the upgrades, however I'll probably wait until further info on how "the fix" and restitution is going to be administered. My worry is what happens if there is no fix for gen 1 cars. Will we be forced to sell them back by the (DMV/MVA/whatever your state calls it) blocking our cars from being registered. If that's the case I might as well sell back now while my mileage is still low and get more money

I can't believe that on a Buy Back they are minus 750 for having a Manual transmission......

I am in the same boat. I do have my factory parts that I will get installed before dropping it off. I will probably work with the mechanic who installed the parts originally and work out a deal to trade him the Rawtek components in exchange for the labor to reinstall the factory bits if there is still any market for them... If not, I will put them up for sale here.

I will probably get the parts installed the day before I go for my buy back exchange and just drive it over with the delete tune still intact. I have been told I can drive it for a few miles with no issue with a dpf installed and a delete tune....

GoFaster said:

I don't think this will be the case. There's no mention in the buyback tables of any sort of correction for "vehicle condition" - or even whether it's in running order. Here's the model, here's the age, here's some small adjustments for optional equipment, here's the the mileage => here's the amount to be paid out. It may be different if someone chooses a "fix" but I think it's a fair assumption that with the possible exception of the EA288 cars (2015 model year), there ain't gonna be a "fix".

If VW plays games with this then the government is going to come down hard on them.

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"II. “Operable” means that the vehicle so described can be driven under its own 2.0*
liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a branded title of “Assembled,”
“Dismantled,” “Flood,” “Junk,” “Rebuilt,” “Reconstructed,” or “Salvaged” on September 18,
2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvage yard after
September 18, 2015. "

Taken from here https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/proposed_partial_stipulated_order_filed_copy_0.pdf

I think having a discreet conversation w a dealership manager or two in a couple weeks might be helpful. It wouldn't hurt if they are under the impression that you plan to buy a new car from them in the very near future.

pkhoury said:

Unless you remove and reinstall that waste of scrap metal yourself, I personally don't think it's worth it for what you to get it done, especially since we don't know if VW techs will also have the bright idea of flashing 23O7 or something, wiping out tunes and etc as well.
And yup - I have the same setup as you. I kept thinking - "If I do a buyback, where else can I find something that puts out over 200HP, 300 of torque, and still gets at least 32mpg when driving like it's stolen?"

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Since I kept it all, I will be reinstalling it all to get the "fix" and compensation. I already talked to a tune distributor and they said they can and will re-flash whatever tune I had before VW's "fix" for a service fee of $100.
So, really, the only hassel for me is putting it back to stock then re-deleting and driving to the distributor again.

Here's what the EPA docs say about Gen 1 car modifications:

3.2.1 Require the installation of a new exhaust flap, EGR filter, and NOx Trap
that meets the specifications of BASF TEX2064, as proposed by Settling Defendants to
EPA and CARB on January 28, 2016, or, subject to EPA/CARB approval, such other
functionally and effectively equivalent hardware or software, provided that Settling
Defendants propose such other hardware or software in the applicable Proposed
Emissions Modification.

Posted elsewhere in the new threadzilla are the revised emissions requirements for Gen 1 cars, which appear to be less stringent than they were originally.

Of course we don't know if this will be approved, but if it is it'll not be a huge deal.

I wonder how the EPA squares the circle of helping the environment if they crush cars. Seems pretty energy wasteful and pollution causing to me.

bloc said:

Thanks for the info.. have any references on the part about buyback being less strict with mods? Or are you assuming that's how they'll be?

If I did have to revert the plan was to find turbo/dpf/nox in good enough state, swap everything, then sell the rawtek exhaust and HPEGR delete on here.

For the record I did talk to Malone... they said they can put back to stock mapping. VW will be able to tell it has been flashed, but it won't be tuned at that point so I can't see why they'd care.

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They cant be strict at all, your legally allowed to modify your own property.. they cannot demand it has to be returned in original configuration or the'd be violating all kinds of existing laws.

If they could turn us down for installing a NON-OEM air filter they would, but thankfully they cant.. so they wont care.

They have no capabilities to roll your modified car into a legal one, if you turn it in.. its destroyed, so anything you do or didnt do is moot.

tomo366 said:

I can't believe that on a Buy Back they are minus 750 for having a Manual transmission......

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You should look at a cut-away view of the DSG. It's like 2 transmissions in one!

nayr said:

They cant be strict at all, your legally allowed to modify your own property..

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Absolutely correct, you can turn any car into a race car and do with it as you please. It is your property.

But

The state you live in doesn't have to let you *register* your "used exclusively for competition" car (note I did NOT say "for off road use only")... and technically at that point it is no longer a "motor vehicle" subject to the clean air act. Since it is no longer a car governed by the clean air act, it's not required to be compliant. (But it is also not supposed to have license plates and therefore not allowed to drive on the streets as a commuter, either, without getting a ticket for no plates and possibly an impound) And if it's not required to be compliant, then VW is probably not under any obligation to fix it or pay out any money either... kind of like if it had been totaled. By making the car "competition use only" you are effectively removing the car from the eligible pool by "totalling" it IMHO. (Your insurance company will probably not insure your race car if you drive it the street, either)

it will be interesting to see how all of that unfolds in this situation. Will they get a "minus needed repairs" clause? If you bring them a car with a blown up junkyard motor and or missing turbo or missing a head or whatever, are they still obligated to give all of the money? Where is the line? Can I essentially part out the car and roll a stripped chassis with no fenders and whatnot, and still get full compensation?

I'll hold off on sourcing the parts I need until I talk to one of the liasons that each dealer apparently has to set up to handle all of this.. but I did find the following in an emissions section thread suggesting we make art cars out of ones going back for buyback:


F.
For any Eligible Owner with an Eligible Vehicle that is Operable as of the date set by the Court for consumers to opt out of the Class Action or the Effective Date, whichever is earlier, but which ceases to be Operable before the vehicle can be brought in for a Buyback,upon submission of an Eligible Owner’s complete and valid claim application pursuant to Section XIII and surrender of all right, title, and interest in, and possession of, the Eligible Vehicle to Defendant at a Volkswagen Dealer (or other entity authorized by Defendant), Defendant shall pay Eligible Owner Non-Operable Restitution to the Eligible Owner. If an Eligible Owner does not possess title to the Eligible Vehicle, for title to the Eligible Vehicle to be transferred to Defendant, the Eligible Owner and Defendant must complete the steps required by Subsection G.1 and the claim application pursuant to Section XIII.

But I can't find anywhere what "Non-Operable Restitution" is.

And "Non Operable" by their definintion of "Operable", is

II.
“Operable” means that the vehicle so described can be driven under its own 2.0*liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a branded title of “Assembled,” “Dismantled,” “Flood,” “Junk,” “Rebuilt,” “Reconstructed,” or “Salvaged” on September 18, 2015, and was acquired by any person or entityfrom a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015.

It does not, however, make any reference to appearance or condition. Apparently it just has to get there under its own power.

I'm just wondering if they will disqualify cars with just an ECU tune (with emissions hardware intact) from the buyback and if they will take steps to detect if an ECU tune is present. In this case would it be worth it to have it flashed back to stock? I'm aware that dealers can detect that an ECU has been flashed even when it's back to stock

KERMA said:

Absolutely correct, you can turn any car into a race car and do with it as you please. It is your property.
But
The state you live in doesn't have to let you *register* your "used exclusively for competition" car (note I did NOT say "for off road use only")... and technically at that point it is no longer a "motor vehicle" subject to the clean air act. Since it is no longer a car governed by the clean air act, it's not required to be compliant. (But it is also not supposed to have license plates and therefore not allowed to drive on the streets as a commuter, either, without getting a ticket for no plates and possibly an impound) And if it's not required to be compliant, then VW is probably not under any obligation to fix it or pay out any money either... kind of like if it had been totaled. By making the car "competition use only" you are effectively removing the car from the eligible pool by "totalling" it IMHO. (Your insurance company will probably not insure your race car if you drive it the street, either)
it will be interesting to see how all of that unfolds in this situation. Will they get a "minus needed repairs" clause? If you bring them a car with a blown up junkyard motor and or missing turbo or missing a head or whatever, are they still obligated to give all of the money? Where is the line? Can I essentially part out the car and roll a stripped chassis with no fenders and whatnot, and still get full compensation?

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The language I saw stipulated that the car had to be capable of driving onto the lot under its own power to get the full buyback amount. I really doubt that they are going to be at all picky on the buybacks. May be different for the fix option.

I just wish I knew what will happen in a couple years when there is no fix and you didnt take the buy back. My 2010 VW TDI Cup car is all stock with 47k miles on it. Based off that FTC site, my buyback would be around $19247 or $5697 keep it, repair it..

Do I take the $19k and let a mint car get crushed. I dont know that I could sleep at night.. But $19k for a 6 year old car that will need brakes and a battery soon (org brakes and battery..)

What happens to my extended warranty.. Do they pay it back?!?!

What do I replace it with?!

planetb said:

I just wish I knew what will happen in a couple years when there is no fix and you didnt take the buy back. My 2010 VW TDI Cup car is all stock with 47k miles on it. Based off that FTC site, my buyback would be around $19247 or $5697 keep it, repair it..

Do I take the $19k and let a mint car get crushed. I dont know that I could sleep at night.. But $19k for a 6 year old car that will need brakes and a battery soon (org brakes and battery..)

What happens to my extended warranty.. Do they pay it back?!?!

What do I replace it with?!

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you see that's the big misconception. You are NOT getting 19k for your car. You are getting a $13,400 for the car plus $5600 settlement money for a total of $19000.

If you were to keep it, you would still get the $5600 and you would not have to buy another car. Don't get me wrong, $13400 is still a decent price for that 6 year old car, but it's not $19k

And settlement $ and car money add to 19k so not sure why you say settlement $ doesn't count??? It's all bs really but both add up.

I'm looking to buy left over new 2015 from dealer and wondering if they will discount new on lot 2015's with e288's???

waltzconmigo said:

how does crushing these cars help the environment? maybe wxman will come along with one of his charts comparing crushing and building new vehicles vs letting them live out their natural lives as they are.

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At this point it's not about what's best for the environment in this specific case. It's about heavily penalizing VW for breaking the law so that neither they, nor any other auto company, would even CONSIDER ever breaking the law again under any circumstances. That's IT.

planetb said:

I just wish I knew what will happen in a couple years when there is no fix and you didnt take the buy back.

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Then you'll have to take the buyback ... or get nothing.

planetb said:

What happens to my extended warranty.. Do they pay it back?!?!

What do I replace it with?!

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Basically this is not VW's problem.

Talk to the provider of your extended warranty to see if there is a possibility of a pro-rated refund of the warranty period that will go unused. A reputable warranty provider should do that in this situation. 'Course, if your extended warranty is from the cheapest fly-by-night operator ... you didn't get what you didn't pay for.

waltzconmigo said:

how does crushing these cars help the environment? maybe wxman will come along with one of his charts comparing crushing and building new vehicles vs letting them live out their natural lives as they are.

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Recycling them is "cleaner" than letting them live out their lives assuming they are replaced with an equally fuel efficient vehicle. That is my understanding based on various CO2 cradle-to-grave calculators on the internet. The energy that is put into building the car is far less than the energy required to operate it.

I'm sure someone like wxman can provide you with far more information on that - or make me eat my hat for not knowing what I'm talking about.

VeeDubTDI said:

Recycling them is "cleaner" than letting them live out their lives assuming they are replaced with an equally fuel efficient vehicle. That is my understanding based on various CO2 cradle-to-grave calculators on the internet. The energy that is put into building the car is far less than the energy required to operate it.
I'm sure someone like wxman can provide you with far more information on that - or make me eat my hat for not knowing what I'm talking about.

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That may be true, but I think assuming that most of these cars will be replaced by equally fuel efficient ones is a bit of a stretch. I've heard numerous folks say they'll swap for big trucks or SUV's.

turbobrick240 said:

That may be true, but I think assuming that most of these cars will be replaced by equally fuel efficient ones is a bit of a stretch. I've heard numerous folks say they'll swap for big trucks or SUV's.

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I've also heard numerous folks say they'll swap for a 1.8T gasser (similar efficiency) or other reasonably efficient vehicle. Others intend to get electric vehicles, myself included.

Here are some vehicle manufacturing GREET models. https://greet.es.anl.gov/files/vehicle_and_components_manufacturing

It looks like a dieselgate VW is about 2 tonnes of embodied CO2, which is roughly the equivalent of 112 gallons of non-ethanol gasoline or just under 100 gallons of diesel fuel. So for a very modest CO2 penalty, they are removing the large quantities of NOx, which is what this whole scandal is about.

VeeDubTDI said:

Here are some vehicle manufacturing GREET models. https://greet.es.anl.gov/files/vehicle_and_components_manufacturing

It looks like a dieselgate VW is about 2 tonnes of embodied CO2, which is roughly the equivalent of 112 gallons of non-ethanol gasoline or just under 100 gallons of diesel fuel. So for a very modest CO2 penalty, they are removing the large quantities of NOx, which is what this whole scandal is about.

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Except that the large quantity of NOx isn't really that large. Also, if I had to guess, I'd say the avg. 40 mpg dieselgate car will be replaced by vehicles that get an average of 30 mpg. Btw, 30 mpg is roughly what most 1.8T VW's seem to get according to fuelly. That amounts to a huge increase in the volumes of CO2 emitted.

That really depends on what the vehicles are replaced with, though, and the individual driving cycle. There's some gasoline vehicles that do far better than the TDIs they could be replacing, while being even bigger and more versatile. (Which, I replaced an ALH with such a vehicle...)

And, a gasoline vehicle can burn 14% more fuel to go the same distance as a diesel, and emit the same CO2 - and that's assuming non-ethanol gasoline.

I still maintain that CO2 emissions will rise in much, much greater proportion than NOx will be reduced as a result of the buybacks. Those buying hybrids, ev's, etc., will be more than offset by those buying trucks, suv's, and other assorted gas guzzlers. This is all about penalizing VW. The environment will suffer as a result.

Coming up next: Namecalling, goat appraisals, and attacking geese with golf clubs.

Why can't anyone stay on topic?

bloc said:

Has anyone seen any specific info on how mods like dpf/egr delete and a tune would impact the VW buyback?

This seems like a better place for that discussion than the emissions forum.

Thanks

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I read through most of everything in the ftc site.. Doesn't seem as if modifications (any of them) will affect the eligibility for buyback. As long as the car shows up at the dealership (under it's own power), you should be fine for the buyback. However, if you opt for the "fix" you may be charged extra labor if you just show up with the parts to return the car to stock, even if the fix will require removal of those items.