TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
The reason your not using oil is the viscosity is off the charts, likely around 16 csk.

Yes you can make any oil go 20,000 miles by adding additives, thats how a usable oil is made in the first place.

I am not a fan of long oil changes, even though my last change was at 27000 kilometers. I have a by pass filter and use the original hard to find zig zag pleated filters designed for 30,000 kilometers.

I know my oil needs help after it passes 12000 miles so I doctor it with disperants and antiwear additive by Renewable Lubricants. To keep viscosity down and increase my TBN, I also add ProLong.
But these are bandaids to keep the oil going.

The bad for a delayed oil change is increased start up wear due to lack of lubricity that anti-wears can not replace.

Do have any clue what your TBN is. I don't see a UOA to back up your opinions.
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
You guys will think I'm nuts. I was always an oil change every 3,000 miles guy. How I've changed.

I now change oil once every 20,000 miles. Yes. That is right. I don't change the filter. I leave the dirty oil in the filter case and only drain what comes out without removing the filter.

Now. You probably think I'm nuts but I've thought it all out and here is my thinking:

I used to work for a diesel engine manufacturer. These engines were 1,000 hp per cylinder. They were big. They never changed the oil. They would take samples on a periodic schedule and add additives as the analysis dictated.

I remember reading oil analysis over time back here about 5 years ago. The upshot was they found no change in the viscosity or rate of wear all the way to 20,000 miles. So. . . they concluded one change every 10,000 miles was conservative. There was a note that the greatest amount of wear in any 2,000 mile increment was the first, when the oil was new.

That got me thinking. When I was a boy (late 1950s, early 60s) no car ever lasted 100,000 miles. You overhauled the engine before then. Yet diesel trucks would last 200,000 to 300,000 miles. I could never understand why. Now I have the answer. The soot that builds up in the oil acts as an extreme pressure and anti scuff additive. The soot is good. So I don't remove all the oil now when I change it. It is always sooty.

I've had a bad hobby of flying old airplanes. The old airplanes never had any oil filters. The later models now have oil filters. However the newer aircraft don't go any further before engine overhauls than the old ones.

I've removed the filter, drained it, cut it open, and spread it out. I've never found anything caught in the filter. There is nothing in the combustion process that is big enough to be caught in the filter.

The only other thing I do other than blocking the EGR is I add 1/4 oz. ATF per gallon of fuel when I get fuel. I've found that it increases cetane rating resulting in a smoother running engine.

I've just changed the oil yesterday. I recovered all but about one cup of oil after 20,000 miles. This car uses essentially no oil. It's amazing. It now has 186,000 miles on the odometer. Just passing along what I'm doing.
A: Soot is in no way, shape, or form an anti wear additive. It is in fact abrasive when the oil can no longer hold it in suspension.

B: Basing your maintenance off of a single UOA done by another person on another vehicle is foolish.

C: Save the ATF for slushbox and homebrew penetrant usage.

D: Change the filter- it's cheap, it's easy, it's silly not to.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Regarding post #3544. Wow going from 3,000 mile oil changes to 20,000 mile oil changes without a used oil analysis (UOA)! What a roller coaster!

For other TDI owners not familiar with long drain oil intervals: this in my opinion is a risky practice. Start please with the manufacturer's recommended 10,000 miles oil change intervals and do a UOA before going any further.
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
Actually I was kinda glad JohnWilder posted. But before I go any further I want to reassure tikal, I made a mistake ( a crazy mistake) in my last post. I am NOT using Prolong. I edited that out. Let me explain.

If you want to extend your oil change you need to know if your engine is mechanically sound. That is why tikal is begging all extend mileage novices to get a base line UOA at 10,000 miles and then post it for revue.

Once you have done that and no one sees any problems then you can extend your oil intervals and extend out based on blackstone or qualified club recommendations( usually 2-3000 miles). Now if that seems expensive and slow just to find out where your TBN runs out, I would agree.

I am suggesting another method which is ideal for those situations where you need to extend your oil interval 5000 miles fairly safely if you know your engine is sound( eg: not excessive fuel in oil, from bad thermostat, bad injector, plugged breather etc.), you still need initial and final UOA for this.

Then do what I do. See previous post. You need to do some research to understand the why and how much, along with a couple of UOA. The risk is lower and you know at least these additives, used in moderate amounts over an extended interval such as an extra 5000 miles, could be cost effective for some expensive oils that I use.
 

tdiman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2000
Location
bridgeport wv
TDI
jetta 2015 sel grey / black interior
TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

I did a Oil analysis on new sample of liquid Molly and then at 10,000 miles and no oil added not much change in the report oil Analysis looked good High tbn numbers so I'm at 17,500 miles and going for 20,000 miles and will test then but planing to change at that point


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tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Thanks James & Son for the clarification, specially for folks new to the scene of extended oil drain intervals.

Speaking of oil additives to extend the life of the oil. I agree that this is somewhat controversial but I also think we can have a civil discussion about them in this sub-forum. So in this note, what are your thoughts/experiences on oil additives specifically for TDIs to extend the oil change interval (OCI)? Any downsides? The ones that come to mind are from BG, Renewable Lubricants and Archoil (among others). I am not familiar with Prolong telling you the truth.
 

Mike14VW

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Location
Wilpo
TDI
2014
Just got oil analysis back, thoughts. Second owner, first after VW recall. Oil sample at 10k miles, also first change since buying.


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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I would expect high iron numbers after the car likely sat parked for quite a long time. There's a very good chance you'll see the iron and copper trend downward over the next several changes.
 

DerekG

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
'13 4dr Golf TDI 6-speed manual
No fair Derek, wish mine looked that good! i always enjoy your youtube videos on towing and airbag installation on your tdi
Thanks man! Hopefully will have some more videos soon. I want to get some exhaust clips, POV driving, and more DIY maintenance stuff.

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tdiman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2000
Location
bridgeport wv
TDI
jetta 2015 sel grey / black interior
TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions



20,000 miles

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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Looks good. And some folks say 507 oils are barely good for 10k miles. Wrong.
 

tdiman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2000
Location
bridgeport wv
TDI
jetta 2015 sel grey / black interior
TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

This will go another 10,000

Liquid molly 5w30 Extended
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jerrymander

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Location
ur mum
TDI
f


Shell Rotella T6 5W40, with 1 quart of Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 due to burn off.

Edit: This is for a 2015 Golf EA288
 
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tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
jerrymander, if I may ask what was the reason behind using Shell Rotella T5 5W40 in a common rail TDI?
 

jerrymander

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Location
ur mum
TDI
f
Woops, it's actually T6 full synthetic.

Anyone should use VW 507 oil, which is 5W30 grade. But I don't have any evidence that 5W40 is bad for the EA288, so I'm trying to find some.

Edit: also the 507 grade has special provisions for emissions system protection, but that doesn't matter to me.
 
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elcid86

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Location
VA/DC, USA
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SEL
Just got my first report from Blackstone @123k (i bought it Jan ‘18 with about 100k on it and have had the timing belt done). Looking good.

 

Dgravle514

Active member
Joined
Dec 21, 2018
Location
South Carolina
TDI
14' JSW
Blackstone results

I just wanted to post this here and see what you guys would have to say about this UOA report. My metal levels seemed a little more elevated than average, but I do have more miles on this interval than the universal averages (8000) in the right column. Should I be alarmed or just let it go? I am going to have to put a DMF in it in the next couple weeks, but I really did not want to put any more money into the car if something was going on with the engine. The Photo is in the google link below.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/bM5JK7zHTvM9mV3LA
 

CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT & 2017 GMC Canyon CCLB ATX 2.8 Duramax
2003 Golf TDI 11.2K miles - RLI Biosyn 10w40 UOA

I got this car last year to replace my '09 Jetta TDI which VW bought back. I got if from the second owner who had all maintenance records.

2003 Golf TDI 5MT
178.5K miles
Malone Stage II tune w/ Bosio PP520 Nozzles
Car also has SMF conversion and SB stage II clutch.
Sport suspension w/ Koni struts, not lowered though.
Driven spiritedly when warmed up. Car makes light smoke @ 3,000+ RPM
EGR is intact and functional, however turned down to minimum setting by adaptation in VCDS.

Avg. lifetime MPG is 44.6 hand calculated on Fuelly app.
Fuel additive is Amalgamated TDR-FL dosed @ 10 ml/Gallon of fuel https://www.amalgamatedinc.com/tdr-fl.aspx

-Oil was in the sump for a year and 11.2K miles
-Bosch Premium 3977 (Made in China) Filter
-Oil was RLI Biosyn HD Low Ash 10w40 (10w30 and 15w40 blend)
-Analysis includes VOA baseline
-Sample was pulled with sample pump while car was hot and running.

Even though the TBN is still there it appears to have thickened up. Early signs of oxidation?
Wear is low except for LEAD. Not sure why...
Also ran this 10w40 oil in my 2.8 Duramax and it did great @ 8k miles. Maybe 11K is too much for Biosysn.
4.8 qt sump, one qt oil added
Manganese and LOW SOOT @ 0.2%. This is from the TDR-FL additive which I believe contains MMT. This stuff works great at increasing combustion efficiency, it has reduced measurable soot in my last two UOAs by almost 75%. It takes about 5K miles before the oil will begin to get dark when using TDR-FL. Can't say enough good things about this stuff because it actually works!

 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
2003 Golf TDI 11.2K miles - RLI Biosyn 10w40 UOA

Lets look at your iron wear. It is 2.41 parts per thousand miles. Is this good or bad? If it was the same oil in the previous oil change then this is a good reprensentation of this oil.

If you compare to TDI UOA Database you find you are doing very well for an ALH.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205814

Problem is lead, if we don't know previous oil history. what to do.

I would be concerned about the lead assuming this car had good maintenance.

My opinion. Even in Florida I would be running the 5W-40 RLI and if successful start mixing in the 5W-30 RLI to get even better results and fuel milage. Both these viscosities have excellent VI of 185. I think your problem could be all or in part from start up wear.

I am going to read thru your info and do some more research. I am very interested in your results.[ Edit]
 
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CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT & 2017 GMC Canyon CCLB ATX 2.8 Duramax
2003 Golf TDI 11.2K miles - RLI Biosyn 10w40 UOA

Lets look at your iron wear. It is 2.41 parts per thousand miles. Is this good or bad? If it was the same oil in the previous oil change then this is a good reprensentation of this oil.

If you compare to TDI UOA Database you find you are doing very well for an ALH.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205814

Problem is lead, if we don't know previous oil history. what to do.

I would be concerned about the lead assuming this car had good maintenance.

My opinion. Even in Florida I would be running the 5W-40 RLI and if successful start mixing in the 5W-30 RLI to get even better results and fuel milage. Both these viscosities have excellent VI of 185. I think your problem could be all or in part from start up wear.

I am going to read thru your info and do some more research. I am very interested in your results.[ Edit]
It’s the first run of 10w40 oil blend in this car. I’ve used it in my 2.8 Duramax for a couple years. The wear was very low on my first analysis, 2ppm/1k miles on the truck.

The ALH Golf came with an extensive maintenance history so I doubt it was neglected. The previous owner used M1 TDT.

It could be start-up wear, however the ambient temp where I live rarely gets below 40F in the dead of winter. A 5w winter rating isn’t necessary. I did use more 10w30 this time around, like a 2/3 10w30 to 1/3 of 15w40. This should put me in the upper range of a 30 wt in calculated hot viscosity.

Another factor, there could also be a flow restriction on the oil filter as the Bosch premium has enhanced filtration vs. the OEM spec. There could be a delay in the oil getting to the bearings due to the finer filter media. Used the same filter this time.

I’ll have another data point in a year. It does appear that BioSyn isn’t suitable for an extended drain interval, I think 10k miles is the maximum safe interval for this oil in a Diesel engine.
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21808509&postcount=1
RLI,5w-30,UOA

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...rli-bio-syn-0w-30-7-510-miles-06-camry-2az-fe
Possible explanation for lead number


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...3684/tbn-and-tan-in-ester-oils-excellent-info
Ecellent information-tbn and tan in ester oils

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-tan-in-ester-oils-excellent-info#Post1585239
Typical viscosity condemnation points

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...yn-0w-30-7-510-miles-06-camry-2az#Post1592860
Typical RLI tan, nitration and tbn related to mileage on oil

I have been running RLI for 4 years in both my VW 2006 BRM. After seeing your report, and going over my UOA. I needed more information. The above information fills in some holes when reading high ester content oils, especially the first UOA on the engine. This seems to explain the higher lead numbers when the rest of the numbers were very good.
 
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Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2011 Jetta TDI DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
New report, forgot to share. Merry Christmas peeps!

Here is last feedback shared on the last run so this was a good follow up I think. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5509812&postcount=3532

Now my wife drives the wagon now so not tracking tank to tank via Fuelly anymore but still keeping eye on the car. I got a buyback 2011 Golf that I'll be sending oil for in the next month or so. I'll be sticking to the Schaeffers on both my MK6 and 7 and even now will probably do annual changes in the wagon as I highly doubt the wife will put more than 10k on in a year. [emoji41]



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James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
Mrrogers1, this is a report that is easy on the eyes. It shows gradual improvement as far as wear metals. The question now is when does the sludge start to increase. A TBN would be nice on this milage now, but the insoluables are steady, so far,....
although the viscosity has increased? The question I would start to wonder is what is the acidic load?

If Black Stone still has your sample it would be nice to have a TBN reading.
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2011 Jetta TDI DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
Mrrogers1, this is a report that is easy on the eyes. It shows gradual improvement as far as wear metals. The question now is when does the sludge start to increase. A TBN would be nice on this milage now, but the insoluables are steady, so far,....
although the viscosity has increased? The question I would start to wonder is what is the acidic load?

If Black Stone still has your sample it would be nice to have a TBN reading.
Highly highly doubt they have it still and I don't "plan" to push to 13k again but who knows, if the wife piles on miles or we do some road trips, maybe I'll do another long run. With the reduced miles, annual change feels about right but idk, we'll see.

Thanks as always for the feedback!
 

Figit090

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Location
Northern California
TDI
Lifted Unicorn! '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon, 5spd, Candy White, Black leather.
Since buying my car I've tested the previous owner's oil once (that's the first no mileage baseline), and my oil twice.
I have an Upsolute tune and a heavy right foot, and never got an alignment done. My timing is also slightly above the advanced line on VCDS..:confused:
I'm Hoping that's why I get 37mpg in town and 42mpg max on road trips...
How's my oil?

:D

EDIT: forgot to mention some months my driving is 90% short 5-minute drives to work and then back in the evening. operating temp often doesn't even trip the needle on my temp gauge. I know that's bad, but not how bad.


 
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CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT & 2017 GMC Canyon CCLB ATX 2.8 Duramax
My thoughts:

Your mileage is kinda low. I realize this is a wagon but still, it shouldn't be that much different than an ALH Jetta or Golf

My '03 Golf has a malone stage II, PP520 and stock 5MT gearing. EGR turned down to the minimum setting using adaptation in VCDS.

I've averaged 44.6 MPG combined since getting this car 1.5 years ago. Mileage tracked with fuelly app. Yes I also drive spiritedly when the car is warmed up. I did an all freeway drive down I-5 to LA and back and got 48 MPGs going 75-85 MPH. I also have Whispbar racks installed as well, so a little extra drag at speed.

Iron wear is almost 2x the average. If you switch to Mobil Delvac ESP 5w40 or Mobil 1 TDT it will lower your wear metals. CK-4 and CJ-4 Diesels oils are better at encapsulating soot plus extra anti-wear and detergent additives. Probably 50%+ reduction in Iron wear alone. They are also cheap at ~ $30 a gallon or less with rebates.

Lead, Copper and Tin are bearing metals, you don't want to see them, especially tin.

Blackstone reports also kinda suck as there is information missing like soot % and "real" fuel dilution. Hard to tell what is really going on a diesel without those two data points.


Since buying my car I've tested the previous owner's oil once (that's the first no mileage baseline), and my oil twice.
I have an Upsolute tune and a heavy right foot, and never got an alignment done. My timing is also slightly above the advanced line on VCDS..:confused:
I'm Hoping that's why I get 37mpg in town and 42mpg max on road trips...
How's my oil?

:D
 

Figit090

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Location
Northern California
TDI
Lifted Unicorn! '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon, 5spd, Candy White, Black leather.
ooo boy ok. Thank you! Please note that I do lots of short 5 mile cold runs, to and from work, 5 days a week. during months I don't travel much 90% of my running is done under temp... I just thought about that.

I have been using Pentosin HP-2 since I bought the car, perhaps I can go down to 7k change intervals rather than 10k? I bought 3 containers of the stuff because it was on sale :eek:

I read it's difficult to say what's causing iron wear? I'm hoping the extra iron is because my engine is still under 100k miles but I don't know enough.

I will do what I can to see if I can get better MPG, my tune is known for being bad on fuel, my timing is too advanced (fixing soon) and I never got the car aligned so it could be those three things I hope..
If Blackstone doesn't give the data points I should have, what would you recommend for a lab?

Maybe a frost heater would help reduce wear? outside temps are 35-45 degrees F most colder days.


My thoughts:
Your mileage is kinda low. I realize this is a wagon but still, it shouldn't be that much different than an ALH Jetta or Golf
My '03 Golf has a malone stage II, PP520 and stock 5MT gearing. EGR turned down to the minimum setting using adaptation in VCDS.
I've averaged 44.6 MPG combined since getting this car 1.5 years ago. Mileage tracked with fuelly app. Yes I also drive spiritedly when the car is warmed up. I did an all freeway drive down I-5 to LA and back and got 48 MPGs going 75-85 MPH. I also have Whispbar racks installed as well, so a little extra drag at speed.
Iron wear is almost 2x the average. If you switch to Mobil Delvac ESP 5w40 or Mobil 1 TDT it will lower your wear metals. CK-4 and CJ-4 Diesels oils are better at encapsulating soot plus extra anti-wear and detergent additives. Probably 50%+ reduction in Iron wear alone. They are also cheap at ~ $30 a gallon or less with rebates.
Lead, Copper and Tin are bearing metals, you don't want to see them, especially tin.
Blackstone reports also kinda suck as there is information missing like soot % and "real" fuel dilution. Hard to tell what is really going on a diesel without those two data points.
 
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