PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 = FAQ)

whitedog

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Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

(Twoslick) The wear metal particle concentrations that show up in oil analysis are mainly the result of dissolved ions and minute wear metals less than 1.0 um. The use of bypass filters does NOT skew these results to any significant degree.

Engines using by-pass filters show significantly lower wear rates, due to a reduction in the size and average concentration of insolubles in the lubricant. These insolubles include abrasive polymeric materials generated by oxidation and nitration, in addition to agglomerated soot particles and the occasional large silicon and/or wear metal particle.

The effectiveness of by-pass filtration in reducing actual wear rates is well documented in controlled field tests of commercial diesel engines. Go to www.SAE.org and do a literature search of lubricant and filtration related papers generated in the past ten years.

(SUNRG) An engine with brand new motor oil (virtually containing no contaminants) will produce wear metals at a given <u>linear</u> rate. As the engine's operating hours accumulate, oil contaminant levels increase, and at some point the presence of the contaminants increases the rate of engine wear (greater than linear wear rate).

When an oil is only in service for a short period of time, the oil contamination is at such a low level that it <u>does not</u> significantly effect wear rate (wear rate remains linear).

If the very low level of oil contamination a healthy TDI creates in 10k significantly effected engine wear rates, then we would see marked increases in TDI wear rates when 5k OCI and 10k OCI UOAs are compared - but this is not the case.

During 10k OCIs in TDI engines, the oil contaminant level does not reach the point where it impacts (causes greater than linear) wear rates - i.e. <font color="red">at 10k OEM filtered oil it is still functioning optimally</font>. This reality is the rational behind the 10k OCI specification, and it has been proven to be conservative time and time again with TDI UOAs (real world TDI specific data).

<font color="red">Bypass oil filtration enables oil in TDIs to perform optimally <u>beyond</u> 10k.</font> Based on the TDI UOA data I've seen, I do not believe bypass filters significantly reduce TDI engine wear during short (10k or less) OCIs. Reduced UOA indicated contaminant levels (bypass filtered) during short OCIs, IMO are more plausibly attributable to contaminant dilution (bypass filters increase the TDI oil capacity by a minimum of 20%) and contaminant filtration.
I liked SUNRGs part here. I'm not against learing new woids and phrases but the first was a bit tough for the average person to read.

Not sure who is right, but I certainly understand the SUNRGs part better.
 

SUNRG

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Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Also, if comparing an OEM filtered TDI with an OEM + BE-90 filtered TDI, since the oil capacity is increased by 22% (4.5 liters OEM, 5.5 liters BE-90) the BE-90 wear metal values should be increased by 22% (for the purpose of maintaining an apples to apples comparison).

The number of liters establishes a ratio between particle contaminant level and oil volume, for example: <ul type="square">29 ppm Fe * 4.5 ratio (liters) = 130.5
29 ppm Fe * 5.5 ratio (liters) = 159.5 (= 22% more wear particles) [/list]If the engines are the same (PD-TDIs), and the particle count is the same (both 29ppm), and the OCI is the same, but A is OEM filtered and B adds a BE-90 (extra liter of oil) then engine B actually produced 22% more wear metals.

When representing this as a wear rate, we say for example 5.8ppm / 1000 miles, but what is implicit in this is "based on a 4.5 liter oil capacity". When the system capacity is changed to 5.5 liters, to maintain an apples to apples comparison, the BE-90 wear metal value must first be increased by 22%... <ul type="square">OEM 29ppm / 5 (5k miles) = 5.8ppm / 1000 miles / 4.5 liters
BYP 29ppm * 1.22= 35.38ppm / 5 (5k miles) = 7.1ppm / 1000 miles / 4.5 liters [/list]This is one of the reasons why even during short OCIs, bypass wear metal numbers on average are lower than OEM filtered. Even if there was no filter at all in the BE-90, the extra liter of oil would drop the wear metal particle counts in a UOA (compared to a 4.5 liter system).

Taking this into consideration, if we revisit Long Range's UOA: <ul type="square">29ppm * 1.22 = 35.38ppm / 5.5 (5505 mile OCI) = 6.43 ppm / 1000 miles [/list]The range is 4.2 to 8.8 for OEM filtered PDs with 10-25k ODO, and since 6.43 is dead in the middle of that range 6.43 is fine.

The average for PDs with 10-25k ODO is 5.86 so 6.43 is just slightly above the OEM filtered average.
 

Long_Range

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Joined
Nov 1, 2004
Location
Arthur, IL , USA
TDI
Jetta Sedan GL 2004
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

We all know how easily statistics are corrupted.
Take my UOA for an example. Posted about nine post up this page.
One of the reasons I took a sample at only 5505 miles was the very poor running condition of the engine for over a month. The tandem pump was leaking. Loosing prime while setting causing hard starts with lots of smoke / knocking and shaking. It stalled out a couple of times while leaving stop lights. After having the LUK pump replaced it ran better than ever.

So when my analysis came back normal I was pleased. If my sample would have been very clean I'd be confused at this point. As it is my TBN is only down 1.9 points from new oil. The engine is still breaking is so wear metal content is to be expected.
 

TwoSlick

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Joined
Nov 10, 1999
Location
Dixie
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2002 Audi TT Roadster, 1990 Audi 100
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Wear rates of Iron and Chrome actually increase for the first 1000 miles after an oil change. The reason for this is that the AW additives in the new oil are quite aggressive and they displace the AW films on wearing surfaces. It takes at least 1000 miles for these stable films to be re-established (Ref: SAE Technical Paper #2003-01-3119). So you aren't likely to see differences in wear rates between a 5000 mile analysis and a 10,000 mile analysis, since the 5000 mile analysis is more effected by this higher initial wear.

Bypass filter reduce wear rates across the board in diesel engines, since they reduce both the concentration and average size of soot particles in the used oil. This is true whether you are talking about a 1000 mile change interval or a 20,000 mile service interval. Of course the addition of a bypass filter does increase the effective sump capacity and I've taken this into consideration when reviewing the oil analysis data.

The effect of bypass filters is most clearly seen in vehicles that are running aftermarket chips and/or larger injectors. These modded engines typically generate 2%-4% soot after 10,000 miles. The TDI engine is not tolerant of high soot levels, due to the direct acting, radically contoured cam lobes, as well as the high tension piston rings.

I would say that bypass filters provide only a marginal benefit in engines running biodiesel, since this results in almost no soot in the used oil. However for TDI's running poor quality fuel and/or for TDI's that have been modified, it significantly reduces valve train and ring/cylinder wear. This effect is very noticable and it well beyond the normal test to test variation you'd expect to see in oil analysis results.

TS
 

rjg

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Location
Little Rock, AR
TDI
Golf, 05, Indigo Blue
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

All,

I just did my first oil change today @ 5k miles. Is there any benefit of a UOA on it? I still have it sitting in the Pela, so either way let me know...

-Robert
 

SUNRG

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Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Robert,

I wouldn't bother with a UOA on the factory fill - start with your 10k. What oil did you put in?

Also, while it would be convenient, you will not get a good, representative, lab result from oil that you sucked out with the Pela. You either have to catch a sample as it pours from the drain plug or get a vaccuum oil sampling pump (~$25).

I personally recommend the sample pump. With it you can do everything topside and you can easily extract intermediate samples (i.e. if you want a 5k UOA but you don't want to change the oil until 10k).

 

rjg

Active member
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Mar 28, 2005
Location
Little Rock, AR
TDI
Golf, 05, Indigo Blue
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

SUNRG,

Ok, I wasn't sure so I figured I would ask. That pump looks pretty cool.

I filled with Motul, so I will do a UOA at my 10k change so you can have more comparisons. This thread helped me choose the oil I wanted to use...

Thank you all for taking the time to put this information together.

-Robert
 

Brasil

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Feb 11, 2003
Location
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
TDI
2004 Jetta wagon silver-Sold, now MINI Cooper S Clubman
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

How much oil is needed for a sample?

I just had my car converted to veggie oil at 27K, and I'm about to get my oil changed at 31K tomorrow. I will ask them to save a sample, then send it in for analysis. I'd be interested to see how the oil does with a veggie oil conversion.

Unfortunately, I just started using bioD for the last 800 or so miles, too, so I've added another variable, but it will still be very interesting to me.

Last fill at 20.5K with dealer's 505.01.

Why can't a Pela give a good sample? As long as it is clean, it seems you will get one.

Mark
 

spicy_red

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Joined
Feb 7, 2003
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2015 Golf Sportwagon TDI, highline, 6MT, multimedia, plat grey metallic
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Why can't a Pela give a good sample? As long as it is clean, it seems you will get one.

Mark
It's all about contamination! Perhaps if it was the first time you ever used your Pela and you cleaned it out, then you might be OK. Otherwise it needs to go directly into a sample bottle either through a sample pump or through a drain hole.
http://www.cat.com/cda/components/secure...mp;languageId=7
I saw a video as well, amazing how many times you can contaminate a sample.
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
PD Oil Information & Analysis

on Monday i'll be sending the lab a sample of <font color="red">PentosynthTS 505.01</font> with 5210 miles on it from our 2004 Jetta Wagon (ODO = 40578).

during this 5210 OCI i changed the fuel filter (removed OEM Bosch and installed MANN), performed a LM Diesel Purge (PDF), and changed the air filter. all were done toward the end of the OCI. i don't know what (if any) effect these things may have on the UOA results but since they're variables they should be noted.

the last OCI on this vehicle returned an excellent Elf Excellium DID UOA, and it'll be interesting to see how the PentosynthTS stacks up.

i put Motul Specific 505.01 in, so 5k from now, i will have 5k tested all six PD oils currently available in the US - Castrol 505.01, Elf Excellium DID 505.01, Elf Evolution CRV 506.01 (in my Golf now with ~2.5k on it), Motul 505.01, Motul 506.01 (no longer available) and Pentosin - Pentosynth TS 505.01.

during this first round of testing i used 5k OCIs just to quickly get UOA results for every available oil. once every oil has been 5k tested i'll begin 10k testing oils.

my hope is that Elf Solaris LLX 5w-30 504.00/507.00 will be available soon so i can UOA test it in both of our TDIs next. if the Elf Solaris LLX lives up to its outstanding billing, and 10k UOA tests very well, i will 15k UOA test it to begin to explore its LongLife potential.

Cheers
 

milehighassassin

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Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Location
Fort Collins, CO
TDI
2005 Golf TDi PD, Reflex Silver
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Quick question.

I have a 2005 Golf TDI PD, I just did my first oil change (Pain the ass if you ask me, when compared to the 1.8T, the belly pan sucks, but the filter makes up for it)
But I did not have the container that the Oil analysis company (blackstone) sent me, so I put it in a clean cup (it was actually a Starbucks coffee cup, never used) I was a little worried that the cup might contanimate my oil results, but I was thinking that coffee is hot and the oil is warm so I shouldn't worry too much since the cup shouldn't release anything into a hot fluid since people drink out of it. What do you all think about this?
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

personally, i'd skip the UOA this time. especially since the initial 5k UOA is factory fill oil, so you wouldn't learn much from the lab results.

also, unless you've pre-paid for the blackstone UOA, i recommend getting OA kits from: <ul type="square"> Andrew Hecker
Independent AMSOIL Account Direct
9406 Vallecito Pass
San Antonio, TX 78250
www.zamslube.com
1-877-271-7646
210 392-3631
210 521-7635 fax
ahecker@zamslube.com[/list] Andy's a TDIclub member and for full testing with TBN it'll cost you about 1/2 what Blackstone charges. plus viscosity is tested using the more common cSt method (Blackstone uses SUS).

cheers
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

>>first oil change (Pain the ass if you ask me, when compared to the 1.8T, the belly pan sucks<<

Pela 6000 oil extractor...

Yuri.
 

rjg

Active member
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Location
Little Rock, AR
TDI
Golf, 05, Indigo Blue
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

I'll second the oil extractor... I just did mine earlier this week and it was sooo easy.. It took me less than 30 minutes and never had to crawl under the car...

-Robert
 

Long_Range

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2004
Location
Arthur, IL , USA
TDI
Jetta Sedan GL 2004
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Dieselgeek.com has the Pela 6000 Oil Extractor now for $42.00.
I have a similar Mitty-Vac unit. I purchased the optional brake bleed kit. It works very well on the pickup trucks I've done so far. You can prime your fuel filter, suck up anti-freeze, all sorts of chores. A vacuum pump is a very handy tool to have around. Not just for a TDI. I've never heard anyone whom regretted purchasing one.
 

milehighassassin

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Location
Fort Collins, CO
TDI
2005 Golf TDi PD, Reflex Silver
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

I wish I could find the link but there was an article that I read a while back on the different oil anaylis companies. Blackstone was rated the highest quality. The company that AMSOIL uses had some VERY questionable results. They took the oil out of a number of cars and sent a sample from each car to like 5 companies. The AMSOIL company had results that were different than the rest. The whole test was not different but a number of different readings were WAY off the chart.
 

DeathEngine

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2000
Location
ct
TDI
2000 NB
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Dieselgeek.com has the Pela 6000 Oil Extractor now for $42.00.
I have a similar Mitty-Vac unit. I purchased the optional brake bleed kit. It works very well on the pickup trucks I've done so far. You can prime your fuel filter, suck up anti-freeze, all sorts of chores. A vacuum pump is a very handy tool to have around. Not just for a TDI. I've never heard anyone whom regretted purchasing one.
Mine tore on my pd. THeres a sharp edge in the dipstick it seems. I sent it back. I was bummed, I heard such good things about the extractor. But thats a subject for another thread.
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

i drain from the drain plug, and use a Tempo Oil Boy extractor to suck the oil filter housing and the tubes beneath it dry.

the oil boy has functioned perfectly and it looks cooler than the Pela


 

redmax

Active member
Joined
May 8, 2005
Location
NE, USA
TDI
2005
PD Oil Information & Analysis

As a novice but proud owner of 2005 Passat TDI Wagon, I was visiting the Wal Mart oil section just to look for 505.01 oils while the wife picked up her items.

I did not find any (no surprise) but saw Rotella with diesel engines. Has anyone performed analysis on these oils and can they be substituted for the 505.01 approved oils? Which Rotella best matches the 505.01 standard? What is wrong with these oils?
 

spicy_red

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2003
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2015 Golf Sportwagon TDI, highline, 6MT, multimedia, plat grey metallic
PD Oil Information & Analysis

I did not find any (no surprise) but saw Rotella with diesel engines. Has anyone performed analysis on these oils and can they be substituted for the 505.01 approved oils? Which Rotella best matches the 505.01 standard? What is wrong with these oils?
- For a PD, not that I know of
- nope
- none
- nothing wrong with Rotella, it's a fine oil, it just isn't VW505.01 spec, which is what PD's require for warranty and specific lubrication requirements as set forth by VWoA.
 

jddaigle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Location
Denver, Colorado, USA
TDI
No TDI Anymore
PD Oil Information & Analysis

Has anyone performed analysis on these oils and can they be substituted for the 505.01 approved oils?
Not yet, but we should see some UOAs for Non-505.01 oils in PDs soon. I still wouldn't use one though. Read through this entire thread, and look through this forum's archives. VW measures wear in microns on the cam lobes that actuate the injectors in PD engines. Almost any wear is unacceptable as it will throw off the engine's timing, with the only remedy being a new cam. The 505.01, 506.01, and 507 oil specs were designed with this in mind. Even though your engine may seem fine after running on non-505.01 oils for 10,000, 20,000, or even 50,000mi, eventually the cam lobe wear will manifest itself in a rough running engine, or in the worst case scenario, a seized injector lifter.

Follow the link in my sig for places to get PD-compatible oils at good prices.
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
PD Oil Information & Analysis

I received the latest edition of the VW A4 Service Manual 1999-2005 today from Bentley Publishers. Below is an image from page 17-2:<ul type="square">
[/list]
 

Capture1

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2004
Location
Ocoee TN, USA
TDI
2004 Beetle Yellow
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Sorry for the delay in getting this posted. Recap, this is an oil analysis on a PD engine running Castol 505.00 oil.

Here it is:
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

maybe it's my eyes, or my PC screen, but I can't make out a lot of the numbers. Could you post them in a list like: <ul type="square">Fe: 28
Cr: 2
Pb: 5 [/list]I think the numbers look pretty good! Is the mileage on the oil 5975 and 23082 on the vehicle?

Unless I'm mistaken, this is the first non-505.01 PD UOA, and it's not showing increased wear.

This is far from the 350hours of RNT wear testing that 505.01 oils must pass, and it's just one UOA, but it's promising for everyone that has had the dealer put Castrol Syntec 5w-40 in their PD instead of 505.01.
 

jddaigle

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Location
Denver, Colorado, USA
TDI
No TDI Anymore
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

promising for everyone that has had the dealer put Castrol Syntec 5w-40 in their PD instead of 505.01.
Indeed.

The wear numbers are comparable to 10k OCI UOAs of 505.01 oils. This suggests a higher wear rate when using non 505.01 oils in PD engines.

I think the take-home message is that one oil change using incorrect oil won't kill your engine, but it still isn't something you should do on a regular basis.
 

Capture1

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2004
Location
Ocoee TN, USA
TDI
2004 Beetle Yellow
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Will do.

Oil Analyzers, Inc.
iron- 28
chromium- 2
lead- 5
copper- 8
tin- 0
aluminum- 9
nickel- 0
silver- 0
silicon- 5
boron- 4
sodium- 2
magnesium- 229
calcium- 2499
barium- 0
phosphorous- 1035
zinc- 1206
molybdenum- 1
titanium- 0
vanadium- 0
potassium- 0
fuel <1
VIS @40C, cSt- N/A
VIS @100C, cSt- 13.09
water (% vol)- 0
soot/solids (%wt)- 0.2
glycol- NEG
TBN- 8.36
OXID- N/A
NITR- N/A
F-SOOT- 0.27
CHANGE- Yes


Miles on oil was 5,976. Miles on car was 23,082 at the time of the oil change.

Good to hear about the results.
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Fe wear rate is 4.69 / 1000 miles - which is lower than the 505.01 average for PDs in the 10-25k ODO range (5.86 /1000 miles). all other wear metals look fine too.

this UOA is great for a PD in your ODO range.
 

LightningTDI

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GA (Atlanta)
TDI
'05 United Grey Passat TDI Wagon with Grey Leather; '05 Golf, 5-speed automatic TDI; '04 Beetle 5M TDI; '02 Beetle auto TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

I am coming up to my first oil change...is there any value to you for me to have the old oil analyzed? IF so, just how do I do this?
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

We don't have any UOA's from the factory fill on Passats, and very few 2.0L PD-TDI UOAs, so IMO it would be good to have your oil analyzed.

You'll need an oil sampling kit. Contact TDIclub member AndyH:<ul type="square">Andrew Hecker
Independent AMSOIL Account Direct
9406 Vallecito Pass
San Antonio, TX 78250
www.zamslube.com
1-877-271-7646
210 392-3631
210 521-7635 fax
ahecker@zamslube.com[/list]Andy will sell you kits for a very comprehensive lab analysis at special low pricing.

You'll then need to either catch a sample as oil drains from the drain plug, or or get a vaccuum oil sampling pump (~$25).

I personally recommend the sample pump. With it you can do everything topside and you can easily extract intermediate samples (i.e. if you want a 5k UOA but you don't want to change the oil until 10k).<ul type="square">
[/list]

Cheers
 
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