Is EPA getting realistic about NOX in diesel emissions ?

The relaxed #s that VW has to comply with, based on averaged out actual road tests, are 240mg/m, across all 3 gens.

The verbiage is kind of funny "≤ 0.240 g/mile NMOG + NOx".

Compare that to T2B5 stated "test-cycle" NOx of 50mg/m.

So what are we to infer from this ?

Will other diesels be held to the same actual-driving numbers - or only after a 5B fine ?

The way I read it, that is the level to trip an OBD fault (check engine light). The test levels for the FTP 75 test are 160 mg/mile for NMOG + NOx. (App B, section 3.1 of the DOJ agreement)

There is also a nice chart here:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/consent_decree_graph.pdf

An oldie, but still a very relevant goodie:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=453096

2013 Passat TDI emissions in ICCT/WVU report ("multi-state" test) vs. average gasoline vehicle fleet emissions in 2008 per EPA

(Grams/mile)

Emission...................Average Gasser in 2008*........................Passat TDI In-Use**

THC..................................1.077........ ..........................................0.01
NOx..................................0.693........ ..........................................0.42
CO....................................9.400....... ...........................................0.03
PM....................................0.0044...... ..........................................0.0002

############

Nevertheless, except for NOx, all other regulated emissions in the WVU test are still much lower than certified levels, never mind regulated levels....


2013 Passat TDI


(Grams/mile)

Emission..................Certified (FTP)..........................In-Use ("multi-state" - "urban")

NMOG...........................0.036.............. ..........................0.000032*
NOx..............................0.03............. .............................0.840
CO................................0.2............. ..............................0.013
PM................................0.002........... .............................0.00002

THC was reported at ~0.007 grams/km or ~0.01 grams/mile; 95%-98% of THC was CH4 (methane) which is not counted as NMOG (NM = "non-methane") (Page 67 of ICCT/WVU report)

fredthe said:

The way I read it, that is the level to trip an OBD fault (check engine light). The test levels for the FTP 75 test are 160 mg/mile for NMOG + NOx. (App B, section 3.1 of the DOJ agreement)

Click to expand...

But you can say, that after fix is proposed/approved/implemented, EPA is de-facto agreeing that cars can do up to averaged-out 240mg NOx w/o any warnings, which effectively is # they are targeting ? You can spike way more than that (spirited acceleration in 2nd gear up 35% grade), if you can then have a period of low-emission hwy driving.

We're not emitting any NMOG (0.000032 for '12 TDI), so the entire 240mg is applicable to NOx

r11 said:

...EPA is de-facto agreeing that cars can do up to averaged-out 240mg NOx w/o any warnings, which effectively is # they are targeting ?

Click to expand...

They need to target lower number for specific test cycles, but yes during driving the targets are much higher (which I believe is true in general, even for gassers). Note that there is a top end of 720 mg/mile, which can never be exceeded without setting the check engine light... you can spike between 240 and 720 occasionally.

r11 said:

2013 Passat TDI emissions in ICCT/WVU report ("multi-state" test) vs. average gasoline vehicle fleet emissions in 2008 per EPA

(Grams/mile)

Emission...................Average Gasser in 2008*........................Passat TDI In-Use**

THC..................................1.077........ ..........................................0.01

Click to expand...

Are these the results for Colorado-spec cars?

r11 said:

An oldie, but still a very relevant goodie:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=453096
2013 Passat TDI emissions in ICCT/WVU report ("multi-state" test) vs. average gasoline vehicle fleet emissions in 2008 per EPA
(Grams/mile)
Emission...................Average Gasser in 2008*........................Passat TDI In-Use**
THC..................................1.077........ ..........................................0.01
NOx..................................0.693........ ..........................................0.42
CO....................................9.400....... ...........................................0.03
PM....................................0.0044...... ..........................................0.0002
############
Nevertheless, except for NOx, all other regulated emissions in the WVU test are still much lower than certified levels, never mind regulated levels....
2013 Passat TDI
(Grams/mile)
Emission..................Certified (FTP)..........................In-Use ("multi-state" - "urban")
NMOG...........................0.036.............. ..........................0.000032*
NOx..............................0.03............. .............................0.840
CO................................0.2............. ..............................0.013
PM................................0.002........... .............................0.00002
THC was reported at ~0.007 grams/km or ~0.01 grams/mile; 95%-98% of THC was CH4 (methane) which is not counted as NMOG (NM = "non-methane") (Page 67 of ICCT/WVU report)

Click to expand...

These are very interesting numbers...but if I'm not mistaken, the 2013 Passat has a Gen III engine, right? That would mean similar numbers could be expected for any 2015 TDI.
That SCR (selective catalytic reduction - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction), that is to say the use of AdBlue, is based on Daimler (Mercedes) BlueTec (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec). Of course, there's a bit of a problem with that, because in Mercedes, it apparently turns off in temperatures under 50 degrees (http://gas2.org/2016/02/23/lawsuit-mercedes-diesel-emissions-65x-over-epa-limit/). This hasn't made anywhere near as big as a splash as VW has with Dieselgate, but it's worth noting that Mercedes has pulled all diesel cars from it's website (except the GLE): https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/benz/green/diesel_bluetec
Does that mean it is less effective at 50 degrees and colder? Or did Mercedes just tune their systems to turn it off to preserve an otherwise unacceptable power or performance drop? Do the numbers for the Gen III TDI engines drop under that temperature?

The better question may be, what aren't we being told? Given how low the Gen III emissions seem to be...why are they included in the class action at all? Why wasn't the settlement "We will buy back or make a good faith attempt to fix all Gen I and Gen II engines, and we will fix all Gen III engine cars"? It just seems...somehow fishy.

Here's a real tinfoil-hat kind of thought...what if VW wants to get the Gen III's back, so it can fix them cheaply, and then take advantage of the market starved for diesels, and then hike their prices up? It's not just all the relatively new 2015's that they're buying back, but all the never sold models they had on sales floors when the scandal hit - if they can fix them and get them certified, they'll have a bunch of "brand new" (as in never driven) diesel cars in a market where so very many of them were pulled off the road...

wmichaelis said:

<snip>...but if I'm not mistaken, the 2013 Passat has a Gen III engine, right?<snip>

Click to expand...

Nope. 2012-2014 have the Gen 2 (EA 189, CKRA variant) engine, a very, very different engine from the EA 288 in the 2015s, especially when it comes to the emissions systems.

I think EA288 (GenIII) made its appearance in '15 Golf and '16 Passat ? The '12-'14 Passat is CKRA (GenII), which does have an SCR.

Like many other owners of CKRA, I can attest to extremely low SCR DEF consumption rate. May be they will boost it , but I doubt it can done, using the existing nozzle and SCR reaction surface area. The proposed GenII fix doesn't talk, ATM, about any HW changes.

The Mercedes case must have been an approved AECD or EPA would likely have issued a NOV by now.

NOx at 50F or below likely would not contribute to ozone formation anyway and probably would actually destroy ozone in those conditions.