HPFP Failures and extended warranty

olyaed · May 4, 2011

I like this car, like a lot. 25Kmi, no major problems so far. But one thing in the back of my mind: HPFP, what if it fails after standard warranty is over. While on warranty there is still a good chance that VAG will pay if it happens. But after that....
So, basically options are:
1) Sell while on warranty. Cons: I would need another car and need to cover the $ difference, which can be similar to cost of repair.
2) Do nothing and take chance that this will not happen to me. Cons: if it does happen, than wow, big $$$$ lost.
3) Buy extended warranty ($1800-$1900), Cons: if it does not happen, this will be just lost (but much smaller) money (unless something else breaks and get covered)
Scratching my head thinking. Anybody else wants to share thinking process with me?

Joe_Meehan · May 4, 2011

The insurance company that wants to charge you $1,800 or more for that insurance is planning on making $900 or more on that insurance policy (it is not an warranty, it is an insurance policy). So on the average you will pay $1,800 and get about $900 back.

Believe me, those insurance companies make money and you are the only one providing that money. They are not stupid, the know what it is going to cost (on average). My college days prepared me to do the math to assure the insurance company made money. I ended up auditing corporations.

So it is up to you.

* Added: Each of use have a different comfort level. If your comfort level is worth the cost of the insurance, then IMO you should buy it. That comfort is important. Only you can decide if it is worth it to you. I have added this because I failed to point this out.

olyaed · May 4, 2011

>>So on the average you will pay $1,800 and get about $900 back. [Joe_Meehan]

Average is an aggregate function in statistical analysis. Statistics is the science of big numbers, not individual cases. Everybody knows about probability of winning lottery, but some individuals actually win despite all the fact.
So, knowing that probability to get HPFP failure is 0.53% would one buy an insurance policy? Looks like answer is on the surface - NO. But I am sure those who had it happened to them at 40-50,000 miles have different opinion.

Anyone?

busdrvr · May 4, 2011

I was also contemplating the additional warranty. After speaking with VOA customer care and asking specifically whether the HPFP was covered under the 5/60 powertrain and being told yes, I decided not to buy the warranty.

Hopefully none of us mis-fuels the car. .......in that case all bets are off I think.

vinistois · May 4, 2011

I got my extended warranty (insurance, whatever), for $500. So if they are making some money off me, it will at least be limited. But I don't know of many failures I could have that would be less than a $500 bill...

nhdoc · May 5, 2011

vinistois said:
I got my extended warranty (insurance, whatever), for $500. So if they are making some money off me, it will at least be limited. But I don't know of many failures I could have that would be less than a $500 bill...

And if you expect a $500 warranty to cover a $10,000 repair to the fuel system you probably ought to just invest it with the next Bernie Madoff instead. Seriously, read the fine print in these "contracts" and you will see how many items are excluded...the lower the cost the longer the list of exclusions.

RebelTDI · May 5, 2011

Invest the money instead. The HPFP is covered under the 5/60 powertrain warranty. You live in Illinois which has plentiful biodiesel, which improves lubricity greatly. Many 2009 TDIers have passed the 100K mile mark without issue. Enjoy the car.

Harvieux · May 5, 2011

RebelTDI said:
Invest the money instead. The HPFP is covered under the 5/60 powertrain warranty. You live in Illinois which has plentiful biodiesel, which improves lubricity greatly. Many 2009 TDIers have passed the 100K mile mark without issue. Enjoy the car.

Show me evidence anywhere where the HPFP is covered past the 3/36 and I'm not talking about some verbal confirmation from incompetent SW's or SM's. As a matter of fact, if the styro cup melts, you just may be on your own even while under the 3/36 unless you fight tooth and nail and only if no mis-fueling actually took place and can be proven. Later!

MostroDiesel · May 5, 2011

As with the factory warranty, I think you can safely assume that if your HPFP tanks, there will be every attempt to avoid covering the event under said warranty.

To me, this negates any value for the extended warranty.

timwagon · May 5, 2011

I have the GEICO mechanical breakdown coverage, which is very inexpensive, and has no coverage restrictions, other than the replacement of "wear items" such as brake pads.

It covers everything in the car. Here are the exclusions:

Exclusions to this policy include regular maintenance services such as tune-ups, suspension alignment, wheel balancing, filters, lubrication, coolant and fluids, spark plugs, brake pads and linings, brake shoes, and tires. Also, breakdown repairs made necessary by intentional damage, corrosion, misuse, or improper maintenance are not covered. Mechanical Breakdown Insurance coverage is in excess of coverage provided by your manufacturer's warranty. Read the policy amendment for the complete terms and conditions of this coverage.

Note the "intentional damage" phrase. That would not include "accidental misfueling", which by definition is unintentional.

Cost is currrently $30 per year. Yes, $30 per year.

dzcad90 · May 5, 2011

We all have access to a very SMALL amount of data.

With what little data has been shared on this site, the trend is that more and more these cases are being covered under the warranty. Even the recent poster in the MkVI section that admittedly filled with gasoline got his case covered by VW.

This topic has been beaten to death - If an extended warranty makes you feel more comfortable go ahead and buy one. A decent extended warranty doesn't only cover you in the event of a fuel system failure, it covers a lot more than that. Statistically you're not likely to need one, however if you're even thinkig about picking one up and you do happen to need it and you don't have it, you'll probably be sorry you didn't buy it when it was available.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for the evidence of where this isn't covered by the 5/60, misfueling considerations aside.

Roshermoore · May 5, 2011

Geico Mechanical Breakdown Coverage

Not that I'm concerned about HPFP failure, but I also have the Geico Mechanical Breakdown Coverage. It, however, is costing me $64.00 per year. And yes, there is a letter from VW Customer Care saying the HPFP is covered under the 5/60 warranty.

Here's the link: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=288949

Harvieux · May 5, 2011

Roshermoore said:
Not that I'm concerned about HPFP failure, but I also have the Geico Mechanical Breakdown Coverage. It, however, is costing me $64.00 per year. And yes, there is a letter from VW Customer Care saying the HPFP is covered under the 5/60 warranty.

Here's the link: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=288949

I think if you go back and research, you will see where VW Customer Care has been incompetent in many instances. Like I said, show me anything in official publication or anything on the official internal VW warranty coverage coding that specifically renders these HPFP's being covered post 3/36.

I would imagine that the letter or email one would obtain from CC would be enough to win a small claims litigation suit if needed, however.

I do agree that VW will most likely cover a failure at this point due to the pressure owner's and the NHTSA has put on them. Later!

olyaed · May 5, 2011

>>there is a letter from VW Customer Care saying the HPFP is covered under the 5/60 warranty. [Roshermoore]

Perfect. Thanks a lot. I was missing that info. This changes situation drastically.
I do not think HPRF failures are totally random , it should be a function of fuel/workmanship/defects/materials and so on. If that is true, that it is hard to imagine a problem pump that works for 5 years.

P.S. Are there really 2009 TDIs who made it over 100,000 miles, or it was just an exaggeration?

olyaed · May 5, 2011

RELATED: I do not know if it was posted here already, but here is what looks like Bosch PDF file on HPFP graphs showing pump wear in relation to lubricity compared for different US and EU fuels, with pictures of affected areas and good analysis on US fuel quality. Very educational. Pictures even have pars that look rusty:

http://kaplunov.com/tdi/022003bosch.pdf

RebelTDI · May 5, 2011

P.S. Are there really 2009 TDIs who made it over 100,000 miles, or it was just an exaggeration?[/QUOTE]

Not an exaggeration. This has been discussed in previous threads. Obviously, there are folks who spend a lot of time in their cars.

nhdoc · May 6, 2011

Those mechanical breakdown coverages are cheap when the car is new because the car is already covered by the manufacturer's warranty and they make you take it when the car is new or you can't buy it later.

It's the same reason extended warranties are cheaper to buy when you buy your car, because they know for the period which VW covers repairs they will not have to cover anything.

Also, Geico's coverage ENDS at 7 years/100K miles and goes up in price every year while the car ages. Yes, so you pay very little when the car is new because their risk of paying anything is ZERO so they are making 100% profit. In the case of an HPFP failure their only exposure would be during the 6th and 7th year and for miles 60,001 through 99,999, by then you would have paid for 5 years of coverage and would be paying a lot more as the car ages (like term life insurance rates go up the older you get).

The other thing is, once there is any "failure trend" in claims for a particular car they will surely either raise the rates for them or make the coverage unavailable for them. What you pay for now is them studying the reliability of makes and models (yes they have actuaries who will do this). Once your car comes off warranty they will then know what their real risk is of paying out a claim and will adjust your rates accordingly.

Then there is a very good chance that VW could extend goodwill coverage to the HPFP anyway, which they have done in the past for other issues, which makes the coverage unnecessary.

As others have said, if these coverages give you peace of mind then go for it...but statistically they are all casino bets which are in the house's favor.

Harvieux · May 6, 2011

nhdoc said:
Those mechanical breakdown coverages are cheap when the car is new because the car is already covered by the manufacturer's warranty and they make you take it when the car is new or you can't buy it later.

It's the same reason extended warranties are cheaper to buy when you buy your car, because they know for the period which VW covers repairs they will not have to cover anything.

Also, Geico's coverage ENDS at 7 years/100K miles and goes up in price every year while the car ages. Yes, so you pay very little when the car is new because their risk of paying anything is ZERO so they are making 100% profit. In the case of an HPFP failure their only exposure would be during the 6th and 7th year and for miles 60,001 through 99,999, by then you would have paid for 5 years of coverage and would be paying a lot more as the car ages (like term life insurance rates go up the older you get).

The other thing is, once there is any "failure trend" in claims for a particular car they will surely either raise the rates for them or make the coverage unavailable for them. What you pay for now is them studying the reliability of makes and models (yes they have actuaries who will do this). Once your car comes off warranty they will then know what their real risk is of paying out a claim and will adjust your rates accordingly.

Then there is a very good chance that VW could extend goodwill coverage to the HPFP anyway, which they have done in the past for other issues, which makes the coverage unnecessary.

As others have said, if these coverages give you peace of mind then go for it...but statistically they are all casino bets which are in the house's favor.

Good points! Maybe we shoud consider the Geico insurance as some sort of mis-fueling protection. It may also be used as coverage against poop happens scenarios such as knocking a hole in the oil pan or losing coolant and overheating, etc. Later!

oxford_guy · Sep 25, 2011

nhdoc said:
Then there is a very good chance that VW could extend goodwill coverage to the HPFP anyway, which they have done in the past for other issues, which makes the coverage unnecessary.

Risky.

Did VW cover the Passat oil pump chain to gear conversion? No.
Did VW cover the cam problems in PDs? No.

(as far as I know)

There's a class-action suit about the HPFP and an NHTSA investigation. But, who knows what the outcome of either will be.

oxford_guy · Sep 25, 2011

olyaed said:
RELATED: I do not know if it was posted here already, but here is what looks like Bosch PDF file on HPFP graphs showing pump wear in relation to lubricity compared for different US and EU fuels, with pictures of affected areas and good analysis on US fuel quality. Very educational. Pictures even have pars that look rusty:

http://kaplunov.com/tdi/022003bosch.pdf

The PDF won't load for me. It looks like the link is dead. Does anyone still have it?

tdiatlast · Sep 25, 2011

oxford_guy said:
There's a class-action suit about the HPFP and an NHTSA investigation.

Really? Details, please, if you have them?

Harvieux · Sep 26, 2011

oxford_guy said:
The PDF won't load for me. It looks like the link is dead. Does anyone still have it?

VWAG/VOA strong armed them to cease and desist with such an incriminating link, don't you know. No actual proof of such but, I wouldn't fricken doubt it if you get my drift.

Later!

tdiatlast · Sep 26, 2011

Harv...you made that up, right? While I might agree with you, and your well-founded arguments on the subject, your comment does muddy the water a bit, don't you think?

Harvieux · Sep 26, 2011

tdiatlast said:
Harv...you made that up, right? While I might agree with you, and your well-founded arguments on the subject, your comment does muddy the water a bit, don't you think?

Yea, I made it up as specified above but, it has to make one wonder regarding all the coincidental VW hush, hush ploys they seem to have been taking, now doesn't it? I'm just saying! Later!

oxford_guy · Sep 26, 2011

tdiatlast said:
Really? Details, please, if you have them?

Topic is in the Golf VI forum.

GTIDan · Sep 26, 2011

Harvieux said:
Yea, I made it up as specified above but, it has to make one wonder regarding all the coincidental VW hush, hush ploys they seem to have been taking, now doesn't it? I'm just saying! Later!

Be afraid, be very afraid (George W. Bush)

Harvieux · Sep 27, 2011

GTIDan said:
Be afraid, be very afraid (George W. Bush)

Lemme guess, you get that "tingle up your leg" thinking about all that hope and change we've been enjoying over the last few years, eh?

Later!

Elfnmagik · Sep 27, 2011

I hope we get change.

TwoTone · Sep 27, 2011

oxford_guy said:
Risky.

Did VW cover the Passat oil pump chain to gear conversion? No.
Did VW cover the cam problems in PDs? No.

(as far as I know)

There's a class-action suit about the HPFP and an NHTSA investigation. But, who knows what the outcome of either will be.

And VW sure as hell didn't cover a DMF failure if it happened before the TSB. I tried to get a refund on mine at three dealers in my area. I was looked at as though I was crazy for even suggesting it and yes I still have the parts in a box.

VW doesn't understand the concept of good will repairs unless NHTSA is investigating it

HPFP Failures and extended warranty

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