My replacement OEM VW battery has been replaced!

belome · Nov 20, 2014

Well, for the longest time I was huge proponent of buying OEM batteries. Until of course I actually bought one a few years back. It has been nothing but junk since the first winter I had it. (Purchased from Williams VW in Lansing MI)

I finally replaced it last night with a new 94R Duracell AGM 80Ah from Sams Club for $169.

Probably not a surprise to anyone here, but this is why my replacement OEM battery was junk from day 1:

Notice the battery supplier... hint, it's not Varta. Never again!

Henrick · Nov 20, 2014

AGM batteries are not designed for conventional cars.
If you want to run an AGM battery you need to replace the alternator from the BlueMotion version.
I've heard some BMWs have a software reprogram available so that you can switch to AGM battery without alternator replacement.

belome · Nov 20, 2014

Well, this should be interesting then!

belome · Nov 20, 2014

Henrick said:
AGM batteries are not designed for conventional cars.
If you want to run an AGM battery you need to replace the alternator from the BlueMotion version.

Nothing on the Duracell site mentions anything about this. They clearly list the AGM battery as valid replacement for my YMMB.

I guess I could send them something specifically asking, but it sure doesn't appear to be their stance on their online product pages.

SuburbanTDI · Nov 20, 2014

There are theoretical issues - whether this applies here is unknown.

Battery chemistry

Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) battery has its own unique charging characteristic, which affects the type and size of alternator you’ll need to charge it efficiently. The Acceptance Rate of the battery, what percentage of its total amp hour capacity it can accept, is different for some battery chemistries.

A standard flooded battery, of either the starting or deep cycle type, can accept charging current equal to 25 percent of its available capacity. Gel batteries can accept 30 percent, AGM batteries can accept 40 to 50 percent, and newer technologies like lithium ion or TPPL (thin plate pure lead, such as Optima) can accept even more. They need to be charged by a large case or extra large case alternator to produce enough charging current, due to their nearly unlimited appetite for amps.
...the alternator’s rating should be equal to 25 percent (lead acid) 30 percent (gel) or 45 percent (AGM) of your total battery capacity.

The problem is with recharging a depleted battery. It is possible that on a cold winter day you will deplete the battery while starting to a low state and the alternator will not charge it. In this situation you will be driving with lights on, seat heat on, defrost on, windshield wipers on, etc - and your car will not be charging the battery.

It may die in motion (not likely) or it will not recover a charge and fail to have enough energy to restart. Not good. The same situation may present itself when you attempt to hook up a charger, you will fail and mistake it for a crapped out battery:

There are certain instances that must be given special considerations. ...A deeply discharged (AGM) battery (less than 10.5 volts) will not test or recharge properly if treated as a gel battery or regular flooded battery. A handheld electronic battery tester will most likely provide inaccurate test results... All of this can lead to confusion when it comes to recharging a deeply discharged (AGM)

even some AGM-compatible chargers will not recharge deeply-discharged (less than 10.5 volts) (AGM) batteries. ...Typically, we only see issues with charging when it relates to stand-alone deep-cycling applications or severely discharged (AGM) batteries.

.

JB05 · Nov 20, 2014

Years back I was advised by a technician from Midtronics not to use an AGM battery, but I did so anyway. Lots more cold cranking amps than the OEM Varta but it was only a group 65 from Sears because they did not have a group 94R back then. Now that Sears does sell the group 94R I swapped that in for the 65 which only had 130 RC or ~ 54 AH. The 65 never gave me any problems, but I may have a parasitic drain which I am now trying to locate.

oilhammer · Nov 20, 2014

While you can burn up an alternator trying to recharge a dead conventional battery, you can much more easily screw one up trying to recharge a dead AGM. That's why OEMs that use AGMs have a different type of alternator control circuit.

If everything is working OK, then you really won't hurt anything. But the whole purpose of a "bigger, better" battery with AGM is that you have that extra capacity, in case for some reason you needed it. But in the case of an ALH car, you can't actually use it anyways because the alternator and control circuit aren't designed to take advantage of it, so it really presents no extra worth on that car.

The ALH and BEW in the Golf/Jetta standard issue H7 80Ah battery is PLENTY big for the application. Anything different is really a solution in search of a problem. Even the NBs with those engines, all the BRMs, CBEAs, CJAAs, and BHWs got a smaller 72Ah H6 battery as standard.

belome · Nov 20, 2014

oilhammer said:
Jetta standard issue H7 80Ah battery is PLENTY big for the application.

Yeah, but the Entertec was garbage. The only reason I went with the AGM was because it was available at a decent price. I want something that lasts longer than two years and will start my car when it is -20. The Entertec failed at that.

oilhammer · Nov 20, 2014

All my cars* have Interstates. They all started last winter, even on that -25F morning we had. I did have to double preglow and crank the ALH some. It wasn't happy, but it DID start.

The BHW glowed for a whole 10 seconds, and started right up without so much as a hiccup.

Sounded like there were marbles in the cylinders for a few seconds, though.

* my F350 has TWO Interstates, but it was plugged in, so while it did start up OK, it probably would not have had it not been for the block heater.

FWIW, my 1952 Ferguson TO-30 tractor, which is still 6v, started running on the very first compression stroke.... didn't even "crank". This country used to make some good stuff.

belome · Nov 20, 2014

I had no issues with the Varta, it started my car a few times when it was really cold.

I started my ALH when it was at least -30 last year. I had to use my Jump and Carry though and it sounded like a tin can full of rocks being shook. Plus the starter kept disengaging after a few revolutions of the motor, no idea why.

I'm hoping this new battery will eliminate the need for the Jump and Carry this year.

JB05 · Nov 20, 2014

My Varta did not perform well in extremely cold weather on the initial start-up. There were a number of times where I had to double pre-glow the gp's and a lot of cranking. The added CC's with the AGM was a big improvement.

TomJD · Nov 20, 2014

oilhammer said:
FWIW, my 1952 Ferguson TO-30 tractor, which is still 6v, started running on the very first compression stroke.... didn't even "crank". This country used to make some good stuff.

I'm having a crappy day at work. This made me smile.

993er · Nov 20, 2014

SuburbanTDI said:
There are theoretical issues - whether this applies here is unknown.

Referring to those quotes, what are their sources?

WardB · Nov 20, 2014

993er said:
Referring to those quotes, what are their sources?

The forum 'experts' post all kinds of truths on this board without ANY source citations. I don't believe anything not backed up by three good sources.

WB

belome · Nov 21, 2014

So, it got down to 8F last night. The Enertec barely started my car at 15F two nights prior.

This new battery rolled it over stronger at 8F than the old one did at 50F.

http://youtu.be/188N9m1r02g

meerschm · Nov 21, 2014

belome said:
So, it got down to 8F last night. The Enertec barely started my car at 15F two nights prior.

This new battery rolled it over stronger at 8F than the old one did at 50F.

http://youtu.be/188N9m1r02g

Private u tube video. if you want us to look at it, you have to open the permissions.

belome · Nov 21, 2014

Just did.

r90sKirk · Nov 21, 2014

Steve,

VW is currently using Interstate as their battery contractor (as I was told by the parts manager at the local dealership) - this can change whenever a contract is up, that is probably why you don't see the Varta, and now we don't see the Enertec supplied batteries anymore.

Kirk

belome · Nov 21, 2014

Dang, I guess I should have checked with VW before this purchase... I sure wasn't going to get another Enertec.

I guess we will see if the AGM causes major harm, I'm sure my alternator is due now anyways.

993er · Nov 21, 2014

belome said:
This new battery rolled it over stronger at 8F than the old one did at 50F.http://youtu.be/188N9m1r02g

Your old one had a date code of 11/10, exactly 4 years old and who knows what it went through so far.

I have read of Odyssey, Optima and other brand name batteries not performing after 2 years...could be the owner, could be the charging system, etc.

My Enertec started at -2F.

belome · Nov 21, 2014

Yeah, I guess it is 4 years old... maybe I should cut them some slack. I was thinking it was 3 years old, and it should have been replaced last winter.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=301805&highlight=battery

993er · Nov 21, 2014

belome said:
Yeah, I guess it is 4 years old... maybe I should cut them some slack. I was thinking it was 3 years old, and it should have been replaced last winter.

Still a very short life for a battery. I'm not going to argue that, but there might be a reason.

The voltage regulator on my 2013 Jetta is set lower than I would like it to be. At these temperatures, I should not be seeing anything in the 13.8, 13.9V range except at idle with lots of loads on. It should be around 14.5V off idle. I am going to have to check my ScanGauge II display against actual battery voltage.

meerschm · Nov 21, 2014

r90sKirk said:
Steve,

VW is currently using Interstate as their battery contractor (as I was told by the parts manager at the local dealership) - this can change whenever a contract is up, that is probably why you don't see the Varta, and now we don't see the Enertec supplied batteries anymore.

Kirk

I suspect this may be a local Dealer arrangement.

993er · Nov 21, 2014

WardB said:
The forum 'experts' post all kinds of truths on this board without ANY source citations. I don't believe anything not backed up by three good sources.

WB

It sounds like some mechanic wrote what is in those quotes, just repeating what they heard.

oilhammer · Nov 21, 2014

Interstate IS the distributor, since JCI makes most of the replacement batteries for many brands anyways. The Volkswagen dealer, Lexus dealer, and Mercedes-Benz dealers I worked at all got their "OEM" replacement batteries delivered by Interstate.

meerschm · Nov 21, 2014

So there may be a difference between who the distributor is (name on the truck)

and what battery is stocked.

(name on the battery)

oilhammer · Nov 21, 2014

Possibly. The Interstate trucks had VAG-branded batteries in them, as well as Toyota/Lexus branded ones. They are just black, and no "Interstate" obviously in the plastic case mold.

Interstate is just JCI's premier brand. They also have the cheaper Nationwide line, as well as the Optima line.

The VAG batteries I am most familiar with, supplied by JCI, were Varta. JCI took over Varta in 2002, Varta is an OLD German brand, been around longer than Volkswagen. Enertec is part of Energizer, not sure where/how they fit into the matrix, but they are associated with Midtronics and SPE.

SuburbanTDI · Nov 21, 2014

993er said:
It sounds like some mechanic wrote what is in those quotes, just repeating what they heard.

No. One quote is from Optima Battery (the leading premium AGM manufacturer), the other from West Marine. I chose those quotes because they sketched out the general idea. Oilhammer's subsequent post, written from the perspective of a qualified master technician with literally ten's of thousands hours of TDI experience was a better, clearer and more concise summary of the issues.

My post, and its included quotes, was meant simply to raise awareness of variables involved. Nothing more. I personally have seen the issue arise in a diesel Kubota farm tractor.

The later response from someone whose fully charged AGM battery successfully started a car in the cold misses the point entirely - it's a recharging issue that potentially occurs in a low state AGM with certain recharging/alternator systems. Denying the reality of the advanced charging requirements of AGM is foolish and unrelated to the real question of whether a particular TDI model is technically capable of supporting an AGM under the most battery demanding drawdowns.

.

belome · Nov 21, 2014

SuburbanTDI said:
The later response from someone whose fully charged AGM battery successfully started a car in the cold misses the point entirely

LOL

For the record, I have been doing some research since I bought the battery. My conclusion is that as long as I don't do something stupid that would severely drain the battery, I should be fine.

I asked a friend whose family has owned an Interstate dealership for many years and he said, "They do need special charging considerations in some cases but in general under normal parameters of the battery design, the existing charging system is adequate."

Also, if you go to the Interstate site, they do list an AGM battery for my car.... so???

SuburbanTDI · Nov 21, 2014

belome said:
My conclusion is that as long as I don't do something stupid that would severely drain the battery, I should be fine.

"They do need special charging considerations in some cases but in general under normal parameters of the battery design, ...

It's not stupidity; it's battery age, alternator condition, outside temps, properly winter mixed fuel, overnight vampire draws, etc. When the sun, moon and stars line up just right and you leave work in sub-zero temps or find yourself in unknown roadtrip conditions - that's when you'll draw it down severely....

It may not happen for years until just the right conditions come into play, but many of us have been there for those slow painful cranks as the battery scrapes the bottom of the barrel for the last of its stored amps. Then you'll know.

My Varta has never betrayed me, nor lashed out to damage other components, through harsh deep sub-zero's from the Canadian Rockies to the Sierra Nevada's to the Tetons and beyond. I personally don't see room for improvement, but if I did I would solve the charge equation first. Guessing doesn't get the phone answered on a wind swept sub-zero plain devoid of cell reception.

.

My replacement OEM VW battery has been replaced!

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