1854sailor
Resident Curmudgeon
Please read the OP's description of what is happening. I believe that the battery is fine. Ours, with the same symptom, is fine after a new starter was installed...
Battery seems dead, but isn't?
- Thread starter celloboe
- Start date
Mongler98
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2011
- Location
- COLORADO (SE of Denver)
- TDI
- 98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
You can test everything with a multimeter including the amp draw on the starter. This tool is something every person should have IMHO. Want to know if your starter is going bad? Pull an amp draw on it, want to know if the battery is bad, test its voltage off, running, and starting, want to know if a relay is bad or why a fuse keeps blowing? Get it? Don't just advise someone to spend money on parts that might not be bad. This issue might just be a corroded connection, frayed wire, or just an issue with a solenoid for the starter! I have read every post in the tread Mr. Curmudgeon!
Just cause its "new" does not mean it’s good or new. You have to check the manufactures date. You can get a "new, off the shelf battery at Walmart or NTB or wherever and it already be 3 years old. Batteries don’t last more than about 4 years and that’s only about 20% of them that do.
Buying a new starter could just mask a bad battery. It’s not about the volts at off or on, its how many volts you have when it’s cranking at 30*F or less. Getting a new starter might be just replacing one that draws a few extra amps that is actually just fine for many more years to come but the battery can’t put out enough anymore because its dying or the wires won’t let that much current flow. Please understand I do know what I am talking about as is sure you also are knowable. I have saved my self-hours and hours of work just by testing parts.
I'm not saying it's not the starter, just saying get a $10-$20 tool first. A tool that will work on almost every issue you can thing of on any electrical system from lights to radios.
Just cause its "new" does not mean it’s good or new. You have to check the manufactures date. You can get a "new, off the shelf battery at Walmart or NTB or wherever and it already be 3 years old. Batteries don’t last more than about 4 years and that’s only about 20% of them that do.
Buying a new starter could just mask a bad battery. It’s not about the volts at off or on, its how many volts you have when it’s cranking at 30*F or less. Getting a new starter might be just replacing one that draws a few extra amps that is actually just fine for many more years to come but the battery can’t put out enough anymore because its dying or the wires won’t let that much current flow. Please understand I do know what I am talking about as is sure you also are knowable. I have saved my self-hours and hours of work just by testing parts.
I'm not saying it's not the starter, just saying get a $10-$20 tool first. A tool that will work on almost every issue you can thing of on any electrical system from lights to radios.
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1854sailor
Resident Curmudgeon
Can you please tell me how a multimeter is going to figure out that the teeth on the starter gear are worn? Our battery was less than a week old when the exact same symptoms that the OP described began happening to our car. Catch for a split second, then just spin. It didn't happen every time just like on the OP's car. Based on the OP's description and my experience, I'm sticking with my diagnosis, and I didn't even have to use my multimeter...
Mongler98
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2011
- Location
- COLORADO (SE of Denver)
- TDI
- 98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Well first off your ears can do that. But you could technically test the amp load when operating and you would see very little amps pulled due to no load but your point is that if the starter teeth are bad that’s not an electrical issue. OP said it would not start, not that the starter made a bad grinding sound. SO.... He did not say it started until they jumped it, he said he could not get it to start and needed a jump start. I think you are reading his post wrongCan you please tell me how a multimeter is going to figure out that the teeth on the starter gear are worn? Our battery was less than a week old when the exact same symptoms that the OP described began happening to our car. Catch for a split second, then just spin. It didn't happen every time just like on the OP's car. Based on the OP's description and my experience, I'm sticking with my diagnosis, and I didn't even have to use my multimeter...
RRR, means like it was a dead battery. Told AAA what happened and they tried to jump it.
OP did it make a grinding sound or a cant start dead battery sound?
A bad or failing starter solenoid will draw LOTS of amps as its shorting out or failing. You can test the amp draw of the starter and the solenoid easily and if you don’t know how to do that then I ask you that you learn how to use one and not argue with me about how your problem must mean OP must spend money on parts that May not be bad. Good for you that you can’t use a tool that would take you all of 30 seconds to use and can just throw money at parts. Also don’t be a dush and roll your eyes at me. I’m here to help. Take over this oh king of starter issues. You must know more than I since you can diagnose car issues with your mad psychic powers!
I honestly think it’s probably the starter too but it’s not grinding. It’s just drawing too much power and thus it’s burned out. IT COULD BE A BAD CONECTION. The back of starters has a really weak connection and sometimes they can break. It’s not hard to fix but it takes some work involved and can save a few $$$.
Where all here to help not to wave out or D!KZ and measure how big they are ok!
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1854sailor
Resident Curmudgeon
Go back and read post #7, please...
Mongler98
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2011
- Location
- COLORADO (SE of Denver)
- TDI
- 98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
OP do you mean that the starter keeps spinning? After it stops cranking? Take your multimeter and test the amps being drawn from the starter when this happens and also from the solenoid, the small pill container size bit on the starter. You can jumper a 12g wire between the big wire and the starter to bypass the solenoid. If that works well than it’s the solenoid and not a connection. If it just stops working than it’s defiantly the starter...
I’m not arguing with your guys, I’m simply saying that learning how to use a tool is so much easier than trying to get answers from VW keyboard warriors like me!
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Caddy 16v
Veteran Member
I'm having a hit and miss starting problem as well, it appears almost dead after a day of sitting and then other times it can sit for 2 weeks at the airport and starts right up!
I suspected the battery at first but now leaning towards corroded terminals and cables. Get one of those battery terminal brushes and clean them as good as it gets. Have only cleaned one side so far, waiting for it to act up again to do the other.
I suspected the battery at first but now leaning towards corroded terminals and cables. Get one of those battery terminal brushes and clean them as good as it gets. Have only cleaned one side so far, waiting for it to act up again to do the other.
Fix_Until_Broke
Top Post Dawg
I'll chime in here with another experience...
Had the same thing happen in my Jetta, would sometimes crank over fast and start right up, other times crank slowly, and yet other times crank like it was -40 and the battery was tired - Rrr, Rrr and then stall. Try it 10 seconds later and it fires right up sometimes, sometimes not - very intermittent.
Checked battery - load tested fine
Checked cables - All good there
Purchased a new Bosch starter, swapped it in and problem went away
Took the original VW (Bosch) starter to my friend at the motor shop and we disassembled it to figure out what went wrong.
I'll update with pictures tomorrow, but the two ground brushes at the back of the starter ground through the back plate, screws, case and then back to the nose cone and finally the engine block. There are a lot of "connections" that those hundreds of amps have to travel through. Over the years and thermal cycles and road salt, etc, those connections start breaking down. You can see where there was arcing, etc where it was trying to flow back to ground.
Hope that helps someone.
Had the same thing happen in my Jetta, would sometimes crank over fast and start right up, other times crank slowly, and yet other times crank like it was -40 and the battery was tired - Rrr, Rrr and then stall. Try it 10 seconds later and it fires right up sometimes, sometimes not - very intermittent.
Checked battery - load tested fine
Checked cables - All good there
Purchased a new Bosch starter, swapped it in and problem went away
Took the original VW (Bosch) starter to my friend at the motor shop and we disassembled it to figure out what went wrong.
I'll update with pictures tomorrow, but the two ground brushes at the back of the starter ground through the back plate, screws, case and then back to the nose cone and finally the engine block. There are a lot of "connections" that those hundreds of amps have to travel through. Over the years and thermal cycles and road salt, etc, those connections start breaking down. You can see where there was arcing, etc where it was trying to flow back to ground.
Hope that helps someone.
Fix_Until_Broke
Top Post Dawg
pictures...
I'm not sure what the solution is for something like this - Maybe a couple heavy wires off the screws to battery ground or something? The starter itself is otherwise fine, brushes are great, rotor is clean, etc. A bad ground path caused it to arc in an attempt to find ground as the various connections failed.
I'm not sure what the solution is for something like this - Maybe a couple heavy wires off the screws to battery ground or something? The starter itself is otherwise fine, brushes are great, rotor is clean, etc. A bad ground path caused it to arc in an attempt to find ground as the various connections failed.
whitedog
Veteran Member
YIKES!! Thanks for the excellent diagrams with the pictures.
Fix_Until_Broke
Top Post Dawg
So, go to start the Jetta on Monday morning, errerrant, errerrant, nothing. Hmm, that's strange, started just fine a couple days ago. Grab the jumper pack - no improvement.
Take the other car to work for a couple days - finally had time to dig into it tonight.
Battery voltage was at 12.8, clock/trip-odo never reset so not a battery issue.
0.1v drop between the battery terminal and the relay on the starter while trying to crank, same on the ground side so wires are likely fine
Recorded 83A with the starter not able to turn the engine over - likely something in the starter.
Pulled it apart, seems the brushes in my starter from 2017 wore out already. First set lasted from 2003 to 2017 and were only 1/2 wore out.
I still had the original starter brushes noted above, so swapped them into this starter, cleaned up the commutator and it works like a charm!
Recorded 364A to start the engine now.
Take the other car to work for a couple days - finally had time to dig into it tonight.
Battery voltage was at 12.8, clock/trip-odo never reset so not a battery issue.
0.1v drop between the battery terminal and the relay on the starter while trying to crank, same on the ground side so wires are likely fine
Recorded 83A with the starter not able to turn the engine over - likely something in the starter.
Pulled it apart, seems the brushes in my starter from 2017 wore out already. First set lasted from 2003 to 2017 and were only 1/2 wore out
.I still had the original starter brushes noted above, so swapped them into this starter, cleaned up the commutator and it works like a charm!
Recorded 364A to start the engine now.