PSA (Peugeot-Citroen) HDI diesel

diesel_freak

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Troy, Ohio
Go to www.psa.fr/en_indexDDF.html , then from the summary select the "PSA world's leader of diesel" banner for an outstanding technical description of an incredible engine. Most amazing are the noise reduction achievements at idle of 5dB. FYI, a 3dB reduction is a 50% reduction in noise level!!!

Makes me wish I had an HDI powered Citroen Xantia or Peugeot 406.
 
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mickey

Guest
Do Citroens still have those gawdawful "frowning" headlights? Ugliest cars this side of hell. I went to school with a kid who's dad drove a Maserati-powered Citroen. Really, truly an ugly spud. But very fast.

-mickey
 

Dieselworld

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Location
Atlanta, GA USA
Maybe your folks did not get the same models that they tried to sell here in the states. I vote with Mickey they are one ugly car! Always see them in the junk yards usually complete! Go figure.

Chow
 

diesel_freak

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Troy, Ohio
I'm with Belgian. Before you go slamming French cars for being ugly and weird looking, go their websites and take a look at what we are missing. I don't think it's fair to criticize a car you have not seen, let alone driven. I rented a Renault Megane in Spain a year ago and I was very impressed.

Back to the subject, however much we might like VW, give credit where credit is due. Peugeot has been always one of the diesel pioneers and innovators, and it looks like they hit a home run with the HDI.
 

BRUSSELS BELGIAN

Old Whig
Joined
May 26, 1999
Location
Aston,Pa. USA
TDI
1997 Passat TDI
OK you Zitrone haters(german for "lemon"). The europeans are right on this one. The newer "lemons" are actually pretty nice looking cars. If you don't believe me, search the web for "Citreon Xantia." You'll get MORE pictures than you ever wanted.
 

BRUSSELS BELGIAN

Old Whig
Joined
May 26, 1999
Location
Aston,Pa. USA
TDI
1997 Passat TDI
All: "Lemon" follow-up. There is a great picture of the Xantia falling flat on it's face in the European crash testing. It folded up like an accordian, or like a French military unit!
 

Dieselworld

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Location
Atlanta, GA USA
After see the pictures, I stand by my original comments they are butt ugly. Those cars would never sell in the States with styling like that. Even if the performance was great, ugly cars don't sell here! At least the French did one thing right, not selling the cars here.

I vote France as the 53rd state. (Just kidding!) I love French Fries and French toast and French dressing.

Chow
 
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mickey

Guest
Don't forget French-cut bikinis!

christi: The first picture just proves my point. Yikes! What were they thinking? I find the second car to be very pretty because I happen to like Subaru Legacy wagons.
(Although this one has the back end of a Honda Civic very tatefully spliced onto the Subaru. Civics are also nice.)

-mickey

p.s. I just looked at some other pictures. There's also a very nice Chevy Lumina stuck on the front of the car!
I'm just kidding you guys, of course. The new Citroens are pretty enough, but if somebody was driving down Main Street USA in one I doubt anybody would notice. They look just like everything else on the road. (Which is a high compliment, coming from an old school Citroen hater. The older models were uglier than a sackfull of *******s.)



[This message has been edited by mickey (edited July 09, 1999).]
 

diesel_freak

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Troy, Ohio
Russell, the Citroen you consider ugly hasn't been made in twenty years or so. Rest easy, it won't be imported. Ever.

Mickey, I agree that current Citroens look very mainstream, which is why they just might suceed here. Peugeot, OTOH, has awesome styling, especially the Pininfarina designed 406 Coupe. Wow, what a looker!

Anyway, I was trying to get some conversation going on PSA's HDI diesel. I guess you all would rather talk about ugly cars of the past....
 
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mickey

Guest
Sorry. That engine looks real *****in!


-mickey

Oops, I'm going to digress again. I noticed a Citroen van in my Web travels. Is it available with AWD and the diesel engine? If so, I might be convinced to set aside my built-in prejudice against cars that are constructed by people who eat snails on purpose.
 

VWx6

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 1999
Christi, you just ruined my day! That hurt. That Citroen wagon is beautiful! It hurts realize that these beautiful French cars, as well as many models of German cars, are unavailable in the US.

America has more automobiles than anywhere else in the world. America has more automobiles per capita than anywhere else in the world. Americans have more money to spend on cars than anywhere else in the world. Americans are more dependent on the automobile than anywhere else in the world.

You would think that you could buy anything you want here. But even smaller countries have more variety in cars than America.

I live in a huge suburb, and I can drive past dozens of dealers in less than ten minutes, with probably over a hundred thousand vehicles on their lots. But... no variety. If you want a huge pickup truck or a huge SUV, you are in luck. If you want a tadpole shaped compact sedan with a 2 liter engine, you are in luck.

Even Volkswagen, with its rich variety of models and engines and options... what do they give us? The Jetta! Nothing wrong with the Jetta, but it is just one more compact, 2 liter sedan with a claustrophobic back seat and a sorry choice of engines. (Ostensibly, the TDI and the VR6 are available, but after reading this forum, and Vortex, for several months, those engines are apparently very hard to find and almost impossible to order.)

There was a time when you could buy a Citroen, or a Renault, or a Peugeot in the United States. I owned two Renaults. While VW is credited with "introducing" the front wheel drive hatchback in the US in 1975, the Renault 16 went on sale here in 1968. After laughing at it, I went for a ride in one, and then bought a brand new Renault 16 in 1971. I loved that car. It had a soul. Everyone at work ridiculed it, at first, but one guy went out and bought one for himself, after driving mine. Later I bought a Renault 5, and before it was broken in, three other people in my office went out and bought one.

I eventually wanted to get a Peugeot diesel, but they were discontinued.

How reliable were my Renaults? You really don't want to know, and I really don't want to talk about it. Same with dealer service. All I can say is, those rattling, noisy, underpowered Renaults were built to be driven and built to be loved.

Sometimes I think that the "economy of scale" is killing the American auto market. Because of the staggering numbers of cars sold here, and the billions of dollars in profits to be made, and because of the absolute necessity of owning a car here, that manufactures squeeze every last dollar out of each vehicle sold, and they do this by limiting our choices.

Now that this is off my chest, I think I need to go for a drive in my nice little Golf TDI.
 

diesel_freak

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Troy, Ohio
I'm going to venture a guess here as to why the American car market is so homogenized. Don't flame me if you think what I'm about to say doesn't describe you because it's impossible to address this without using generalities.

Americans, as consumers, and as a society, are so much more conformist than the rest of the industrialized world that it scares me. So much talk about personal freedom and individuality, yet everyone wants to drive what everyone else has, whatever the fad of the moment (SUVs and pick ups) is.

One of the reasons I will buy Golfs as long as VW sells them is because you don't see everyone in them. A diesel Golf makes the rarity factor go through the roof.
 

diesel_freak

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Troy, Ohio
Mickey, I agree that it is possible to build a defect free car. As a manufacturing engineer, I have become quite a student of the Toyota Production System, pioneered by Taichi Ono. If you are interested in the "how" of a defect free product, I'd like to recommend the book "Gemba Kaizen" by Masaaki Imai. Barnes and Noble should be able to order it.

I only wish Toyota would provide us with soul along with reliability. Check out the Euro Corolla and the Avensis at any euro-Toyota website.
 

VWx6

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 1999
Mickey, I hear you...

In February, 1982, on a Sunday morning, I was fifty miles north of Winchester, VA; i.e., in the middle of Nowhere, and 300 miles from home. I was on business, it was snowing, and my Renault 5 with 92,000 miles blew its head gasket. The following week I was driving a brand new Honda Civic 1300 FE.

Yes, reliability killed them all.

Its funny how the Miata, years later, did what the little British roadsters couldn't do: stay on the road. Every time I see one of these antiques, I become envious, then run down to the Mazda dealer, but then wonder: where's its soul? I know that sounds arrogant, but I just can't figure out what's missing from the Miata.

In 1996 I reformed from European car addiction. Bought a Ford. A Mondeo / Mercury Mystique. Three months ago I relapsed, traded it in for a TDI, and ten days later the dealer called to let me know how lucky I was: the Mystique, with 19,200 miles on it, broke its crankshaft. So, you never know. Even the Renault 5 got 92,000 miles before blowing its head gasket. And I didn't abuse these cars. Never speed, always maintained them at the dealer.

The worst car I ever owned was a Mercedes. A 1967 200 Diesel. From the day it was new, it was always in the shop. I got 166,000 miles on it before I had to give it up due to costly and frequent repairs.

As for the Beetle, I think it is more than just cute. It has unbelievable headroom, and big, wide doors. If it weren't for the price, and the difficulty finding a Beetle TDI, I might have bought one instad of the Golf.
 
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mickey

Guest
16v, I'm guilty as charged. I drive a New Beetle. They're so cuuuuuute! Actually I may be the first person in history to buy one for practical reasons. TDI engine, and stronger resale value than Jettas or Golfs. Cute was way down at the bottom of the priority list. But after seeing the way my 3-year old reacts to it, I think there's something to be said for "cute". Every night when I get home he runs around hugging and kissing his "Beetle-car". (He looks like a chimney sweep afterward.) Nothing for Dad at all! (Sigh.)

VWx6: You said it all when you mentioned the reliability of your Renault. There used to be a wide variety of imported cars available in the US when I was younger. Renault, Peugeot (indluding diesels), Fiat, Lancia, MG, Triumph, Citroen, etc. You name it, we had it. Reliability, more than any other issue, killed them all. And when they broke, parts were impossible to obtain. Our very dependence on automobiles (especially out West) makes reliability the single most important factor in the survival of an automotive product line. The one thing I absolutely won't tolerate in a car is poor reliability. That is the cardinal sin. I drive vast distances, and no alternative form of transportation is practical or available. If my car won't start, I don't get to work. I obviously have an open mind about trying different cars or I'd stick with Toyotas exclusively. (Their reliability is almost beyond belief.) But if a car lets me down more than a couple of times I angrily get rid of it and never darken the door of that manufacturer again. (Subaru and Ford are on my "hate" list forever.) Perhaps folks in other countries have the same mind set as a lot of "Big Three" buyers in the US: Talk to a "Ford Man" or a "Pontiac Man" about reliability and they'll all tell you their cars are as dependable as a stove bolt. Question them further and you realize they just conveniently choose to ignore the long list of picky little odds and ends that break on almost a weekly basis. Reliability, to me, means that NOTHING breaks. Not ever. The car should be perfect when you buy it, and remain absolutely flawless to the finest detail until it has well over 100,000 miles on it. I'm not dreaming; I've seen Toyotas do that on a regular basis. That's why I don't think "zero defects" is an unreasonable expectation. If Toyota can do it, anybody else should be able to.

-mickey

p.s. Yes, I know Toyotas sometimes have problems too. But none of mine have. Ever.
 
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mickey

Guest
Actually, if I'd known then what I know now I would have looked for a Golf GLS TDI. I didn't know the GLS has 4 doors! At the time I figured the Golf and Beetle were the same thing, practically speaking. I figured "What the hell? Might as well get the cute one!" (You're certainly right about the headroom. I'm 6' 4", and even with the seat all the way up I still have plenty of room.) I have high hopes for the rumored Jetta wagon! My wife would love one of those!

16v: I agree with you about Toyota's lack of "soul". All they do is function perfectly, every day. Excitement, unfortunately, isn't part of the bargain. (Although yesterday I saw a new Avalon at a stop light, and thought "Hey, good looking car!" Yikes! Next stop: Retirement home!)Sometimes I wonder if the "soul" everyone misses in their old cars was due, in part, to the need for constant tinkering to keep them on the road! I still have fond memories of my old 240Z I drove in high school, but most of those memories revolve around engine rebuilds and balancing carburators. I was intimately acquainted with every part of that car, inside and out. There's no way I would consider that kind of relationship "endearing" any more. I've become very intolerant in my old age. But I hope I can find an excuse to keep my Bug: It's reliable (so far) and has personality dripping all over the place!

-mickey
 

VWx6

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 1999
Life is full of choices, and you can only make so many trade offs in the quest to control the chaos in your life. Getting rid of a car, which all of your instincts tells you has a soul, for a cold but perfect machine, is a hard choice. If you make that choice, then the next step might be to get rid of the kids. Then, perhaps, unload the spouse. Then what are you going to do? Get rid of the dogs?

Frankly, getting rid of the dogs and the VW is taking things too far, in my opinion.
 

christi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 22, 1999
Location
Ruislip, Middlesex, UK
TDI
Peugeot 806, 607
So, you guys think that French cars are ugly. I guess that's why you get such a limited choice of imported cars, it's your own faults, it's because you're all so conservative. Some people here are conservative too, but there are always enough people who want something a bit different, a bit interesting, to keep manufacturers like Citroen going. It means that we get to buy Peugeots and Citroens with the HDi engine, and you don't; except that we can't either cause they're so damned expensive :-(
BTW I've always found American cars butt ugly. The older ones are just a box with wheels. When Citroen were producing the DS, with a monocoque body, fully independant hydropneumatic suspension, front wheel drive, semi-automatic gearbox, it made an American car look like a truck!

------------------
1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/



[This message has been edited by christi (edited July 12, 1999).]
 

Dieselworld

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Location
Atlanta, GA USA
Holy Flame us Yanks!

Christi,
You like those cars fine. Some American cars are butt ugly like the Ford "explosion" Pinto, or the Maverick, or AMC Gremlin. However, I would rather have a car that was somewhat ugly and ran, than having one that had "soul" and was "beautiful" and sitting in the junk yard. We have more old cars on the road than any other country in the world. Hmmmm.....I wonder why. Because for the most part they work. Other than VW I would have Chevy's. Some of the highest miles on a car I have seen were Chevy's. Easy to fix, cheap on parts and run forever.

Still have my 1973 Camaro and will be running in another 30 years. Hope the Jetta can last that long.

Chow
 

christi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 22, 1999
Location
Ruislip, Middlesex, UK
TDI
Peugeot 806, 607
Well you guys started it :)
If I wanted ultimate reliability, then I suppose that I could go and buy a Scania or Volvo truck and drive that around. It's got a huge diesel engine, and maybe would get 20mpg with a trailer on the back. I bet that would last forever, and I could tow a 38 ton trailer whenever I wanted.
Fact is that my French cars have been pretty reliable. My first car was a Peugeot 305 diesel 1548cc. When I sold it (to a truck driver who was gonna steal diesel from his employer) it had done 350,000 miles, and was still going well.
I just replaced my second car, another Peugeot 305 diesel, this time a 1905cc series two. That had done 207,000 miles. That had to go because it had been written off three times, and the body was rotten. At had not just driven 207,000 miles, at had been thrashed mercilessly for at least the last 150,000 miles (on account of only having 65bhp). My father's cars have always been pretty reliable too. When I was four years old he used his 850cc Renault 4 to tow a caravan, and carry four people across Europe to the south of France, and back without trouble. Later his Saab 95 did the same thing, at least 5 or 6 times. He sold that car, still looking like new, with 12 years and over 100,000 miles on it. That car only broke down once or twice in 12 years. He now has a Jeep Cherokee, and that thing is always having small problems. The transmission has been rebuilt a couple of times, I don't think that my dad has ever engaged 4 wheel drive, or even driven up a dirt track in it. The interior is horribly fragile. If you sit in it with trousers which have a zipper on the back, it tears the seat!
My current Passat has done 50,000 miles, and so far has suffered one failure, an intermittent courtesy light door switch.
You'll find tons of people here who will testify to how reliable there VWs have been.
My main problem with American cars is the sheer quantity of fuel which they have always used, and still continue to use, it's simply immoral. You need European fuel prices, for the sake of the planet.
What is the attraction of a car which does 20mpg, is as big as a house and has similar cornering abilities, and looks like two house bricks with a load of chrome on the front and back? And what do you guys do to cars which makes them so unreliable in the US?
That should prevoke a reaction :-O :)

------------------
1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/



[This message has been edited by christi (edited July 12, 1999).]
 

VWx6

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 1999
I think what killed off a lot of European cars, particularly in the '60s and '70s, was a combination of air conditioning, automatic transmissions, heavy traffic, and the hot climate. My 1967 Mercedes was not designed to be driven south of the 45th parallel, and I doubt if Mercedes ever gave that kind of driving much thought. The car had ultra high gloss enamel paint, beautiful at first, but faded quickly. It did not have tinted or UV absorbing glass. The air conditioning was MB approved, built by Thermo-King in Texas, but still, it would not cool the car on a hot day, and whenever it was running, the temperature gauge started floating up... and up.. and up.. Picture this: sitting for two light cycles at a stop light; ambient air temperature is 90 farenheit - probably something around 32 C - and the temperature over the black asphalt was probably around 115 Farenheit. The air conditioning is running and the engine is not getting any ventilation except provided by the radiator fan.

That car stayed overheated all summer. So did my Renault 16, which had air and automatic. My Renault 5 had neither air nor automatic, but it, too, ran hot all summer. My 78 Rabbit (Golf) diesel stayed overheated. I noticed an improvement with my '86 Golf Diesel and my '91 Jetta diesel, but they still ran well above the target temperature the thermostat was looking for. My 1999 Golf TDI is the first European car I've owned where the temperature needle stays fixed in one spot, and our local temperatures peaked out in the 90 every day last week, except one - that day it topped out at 102 - that's 39 in Europe.

From what I've seen of Summer in Germany, it is more like late October in Virginia. And in Germany, from what I saw, nobody abuses their car in heavy traffic every day; they take the public transportation, which arrives on every street corner every 90 seconds.

American cars, which in the 1960s, typically had 6 or 7 liter engines, producing pathetic horsepower, but huge enough to run a big water pump and a big alternator and to turn over a big compressor, without evey trying, and a lame brained driver could sit at a traffic light for five minutes without even putting the automatic in neutral.

Christi, American cars don't look like trucks - most of them are trucks.

In America, most runs are less than five miles from home to destination and back home, with 1.2 passengers on board, at an average ground speed of 30 mph. Nothing a golf cart couldn't handle. And yet, about 40% of these runs and done in 5000 pound SUVs or pickup trucks, capable of carrying another ton of payload, for speeds up to 100 mph for non-stop distances of over 200 miles. And we wonder why there is a smog problem?

What is reallly incredible is that these behometh SUVs breeze by the emission standards, designed for commercial trucks intended to haul cargo, materials and equipment, while there are small TDI engines all over Europe that can't pass and are are officially banned from America as pollution hazards.
 
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mickey

Guest
christi: Thanks for the alternate view of the Xantia. Now I'm convinced that it's a re-badged Chevy Lumina.


I agree with your asessment of American cars. I drive a '93 Jeep Cherokee with 75,000 miles every day at work. It is a miserable, gas-guzzling pile of crap. I wouldn't buy a Chrysler product on a dare. I've had bad experiences with my one venture into the Ford family, and the repair records of GM cars are dismal. But I disagree with your idea that cool European cars are absent from the US because we are too "conservative". As I pointed out above, all those makes were available here back in the 60's and 70's. We learned our lesson the hard way. Perhaps those manufacturers have solved their reliability problems, but it's hard to convince former victims that a criminal is "reformed." I've always liked Jaguars, but I wouldn't rely on one to get me to work! I've always had a hankering for a Triumph TR6, which used to be plentiful over here, but nearly all of them died an early death. (Often in smoke and flames by the side of the road somewhere.) French, British and Italian cars all have a reputation for extremely poor quality in this country; a reputation which they rightly deserve. Japanese cars killed the European imports the same way they severely damaged our domestic auto industry: Through simple reliability and economy.

Japanese cars have no soul? Perhaps not, but by spending less money on repairs I was able to buy a handmade Heritage "Les Paul" electric guitar from the original Gibson factory in Kalamazoo, Michigan; with a fantastic hand made Matchless amplifier to go with it. Talk about "Soul"! It's all in your priorities, I guess.

-mickey
 

christi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 22, 1999
Location
Ruislip, Middlesex, UK
TDI
Peugeot 806, 607
My wife comes from a twon near Cordoba, in southern Spain. Last August it was over 40 deg C every day, and one day hit 45 deg C. The cars (including lots of old Renaults, and my father in laws 25 year old Citroen) still worked.

------------------
1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/
 

VWx6

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 1999
OK. The Rain In Spain Stays Mainly In the Plains.

Euro Killers Part II

Christi, maybe it's not just the heat - altthough, do those old Renaults near Cordoba run a/c and spend 35% of their running time at intersections waiting for lights?

Also, I think, what leds to the short life of Renaults was the cost of parts and repairt. Most of the cars I have traded in or gave away were just too expensive to repair. Cheaper to get a new one. Perhaps, in Europe, parts and experienced mechanics for Renaults are more abundant, and less costly? Both my Renaults were still running when I traded them. But in the case of my Renault 5, there was a problem after the head gasket was replaced, and I was not about to fool with this any longer. Renault dealers were few and far between, and I wa on the road a lot in those days. I traded in my Renault 5 for a Honda Civic 1300 FE, zero mileage, and when the Honda was one week old it had 1,600 miles on it. There were a lot of things wrong with the Renault 5; a wire coil was sticking up from the driver's seat; the inside door handle to the drivers door was broker; the windshield needed to be refastened to the frame; and a bunch of minor things.

So... not only are these cars no longer available, there never was much of a service and parts network in the first place, and little demand for them, so they died out. Its sad. Repairable European cars ended up in the junk yard at an early age.

For around town driving, I knew of several Peugeot 404s which outlasted their owners. I also remember, in college, a friend bought a used, very old 404 for nothing, just something to drive till he could get his Jag running again. Several years later it was still going. He tried to kill it but couldn't. He refused to change the oil or get it tuned up, and it kept on running.
 

diesel_freak

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Troy, Ohio
Just for the sake of argument, I'll make a list of all American cars I consider ugly:

Anything made by GM, ever.

Any Ford or Mercury, with exceptions listed below.

Any and all Chrysler, Dodge, and Plymouth cars until 1993.

Anything made by American Motors, ever.

All Liconls.

It's probably easier to list which American cars don't offend my sight:

Chrylser 300M/Dodge Intrepid, Dodge Stratus, Dodge Neon, 99 Mustang, Mercury Cougar, Ford Focus, Jeep Grand Cherokee. That's it.

PS, the Cougar and the Focus are Ford of Europe designs.
 
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