250+ hp turbo option

Im building a 99.5 tdi jetta.
My goal is 250+ whp.
Im using .240 injector nozzles
11 mm injection pump
Water/meth injection
Full exhaust
Fmic
And kerma tunes
And stage 2 colt cam from Kerma

I had prevously decided on a 17/22 from
Kerma.

But reading on this forum. I found that the 17/22 will be limiting factor to my 230+whp goal.

What would be a good option to meet my goal?

I realize a bigger turbo may lag more than the 17/22 but if it produces more power im willing to deal with the lag

Ive also thrown around the idea of using a vnt 17 to spool up a second larger non vnt turbo. Any thoughts on this?

I am also fairly handy. I can modify my stock manifold to fit a new turbo or even build a completluly custom
Setup if necessary

Gtb turbo. If not then a compound set up

From what i hear the GTB2260VK ts the best? Is this what you installed vwbeamer?


Where would i get this turbo?

Can i use a stock head. Or is the pd150 necessary?

How much could i squeez out of the 17/22 and still be safe. I will be spraying wmi so it should keep fairly cool.

No, I have the 17/22. It's good for about 200hp.

VWBeamer said:

No, I have the 17/22. It's good for about 200hp.

Click to expand...

What are your mods? What do you dyno at?

from my reading, the 17/22 comes with hoter EGTs. not shure about what the w/m injection is going to do for the EGTs. in shure that a large exhaust would help, alont with FMIC. i would also go with a bypass oil filter and an after market oil cooler. the by pass filter will alow you to hold about a qt more oil, that along with the cooler should help stablize the engine temp.

At least 12mm pumphead race.520 nozzels 2260vk turbo bigger exhaust valves and ported head.
Look at rub87 project. That power goal you better of with a pd engine and a lot cheaper too.

for if just around 230whp/250bhp is your goal 11 or 12mm pump race520s lift pump and gtb2056vk would be enough with the right air mods and intercooler. the 2260vk is the best for high hp but will enevatably have more lag and power further up the revs. personally i think the 2056vk is a better street car comprimise faster spooling and more of the power where you want it for the road . i will be going for a 2260vk but only when im using it as a toy come trackday car . just depends on your personel preferences on how the car drives

Bdpprocessors said:

From what i hear the GTB2260VK ts the best?...Where would i get this turbo?...

Click to expand...

Driver's Fire in Ft. Worth (TDIinTexas) builds the kits and has some really nice features to his system. He welds a V-band ring to the housing to simplify the exhaust connection and has a very nice VNT actuator bracket design. His parts are ceramic coated when complete and he can offer a complete solution with FMIC and intake mani or just parts. We are finishing mine there next weekend.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=254951
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=292843

Darkside Developments in the UK (RyanP) also has nice kits and can supply the turbos.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=313001&highlight=Darkside

A third option is Whitbread in Ohio who has done a few of these builds.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=247135&highlight=whitbread+performance+innovations

for 250BHP on ALH, you wil want to add some significant other items to your list. If you look at some of the current/past builds experiance you will see the following:
Rosten Rods
Reduced Compression Ratio on Pistons ,17 to 17.5:1 would be good range
Flycut your piston valve reliefs about .5mm deeper
use Colt Stage 3 cam
ARP head stud kit
Switching to a piston with internal oil cooling gallery - ASV, BEW, BHW (2.0L)...be careful with rod selection to have right piston/crank combination
head porting
uprated valve springs (or the valves will float)
GTB2056VK..early spool..250BHP would be right around the limit of this turbo on ALH
or GTB2060VK..good fit for 250BHP, pretty good spool

then there is all the engine support items..like FMIC

If you are thinking this is too extensive, then dropping your HP asperations to the 200HP range makes a world of difference on ALH build requirements.

Bdpprocessors said:

What are your mods? What do you dyno at?

Click to expand...

Mods are in my signature, no Dyno, but I'm guessing 150-160Hp.

I'm going for about the same power goals. But I'm going to be doing more machine work; bore and stroke out to 2.1 litres. It gives a better rod to stroke ratio. And the exhaust should flow enough andhot enough to reduce spool time with the gtb2260 turbo. Head machineing is a must. My valve trane is going to be as light as I can get it. With that size motor I'm not going to be turning that much rpm so I can get away with a 12mm injection pump coupled with a PD lift pump (at a min.) For an exhaust mani. I'm going with a tube 4 in to 1. And on the intake side I'm going with a PD150 intake coupled with an R32 air intake system. On this set up, a fmic is a must. If I can make 250+ reliable whp and still get 45mpg, ied be happy. Keep in mind that this will also be daily driven.

all that and you're using a PD150 intake...

At least get a SDI. or better yet a fabbed intake.

UsArmyTDI said:

I'm going for about the same power goals. But I'm going to be doing more machine work; bore and stroke out to 2.1 litres. It gives a better rod to stroke ratio. And the exhaust should flow enough andhot enough to reduce spool time with the gtb2260 turbo. Head machineing is a must. My valve trane is going to be as light as I can get it. With that size motor I'm not going to be turning that much rpm so I can get away with a 12mm injection pump coupled with a PD lift pump (at a min.) For an exhaust mani. I'm going with a tube 4 in to 1. And on the intake side I'm going with a PD150 intake coupled with an R32 air intake system. On this set up, a fmic is a must. If I can make 250+ reliable whp and still get 45mpg, ied be happy. Keep in mind that this will also be daily driven.

Click to expand...

Well. That's what I have learned about so far. I still have some reading to do on intake manifolds. I was realy showing what it might take to get to a good reliable 250 plus. I'm shure my set up will be capable of a lot more, but I'm not going for the highest power numbers. I just want to know I have the ability to turn the wick up and not realy have to worry about breaking a ton of parts

TDIsyncro said:

for 250BHP on ALH, you wil want to add some significant other items to your list. If you look at some of the current/past builds experiance you will see the following:
Rosten Rods
Reduced Compression Ratio on Pistons ,17 to 17.5:1 would be good range
Flycut your piston valve reliefs about .5mm deeper
use Colt Stage 3 cam
ARP head stud kit
Switching to a piston with internal oil cooling gallery - ASV, BEW, BHW (2.0L)...be careful with rod selection to have right piston/crank combination
head porting
uprated valve springs (or the valves will float)
GTB2056VK..early spool..250BHP would be right around the limit of this turbo on ALH
or GTB2060VK..good fit for 250BHP, pretty good spool
then there is all the engine support items..like FMIC
If you are thinking this is too extensive, then dropping your HP asperations to the 200HP range makes a world of difference on ALH build requirements.

Click to expand...

How much would i need to remove from bew pistons to get the comp ratio down to 17.5?

I have access to cnc machinery. Just need some deminsion info

With the SDI i've read you loose Hp ,get one made

If you change the shape you will loose hp but If you evenly machine the bowl and keep the original shape. It will be benifical in high boost applications

raydeee said:

With the SDI i've read you loose Hp ,get one made

Click to expand...

Where did you read that? id like to know if it's a fact or a guess.

Bdpprocessors said:

How much would i need to remove from bew pistons to get the comp ratio down to 17.5?
I have access to cnc machinery. Just need some deminsion info

Click to expand...

the formula is CH=CY/(CR-1)

where CY = swept volume, CR = Compression Ratio, CH = Clearance volume

You will have to calculate it yourself. First CC the BEW bowls as they are now. Subtracted that number from the calculated CH, and that will tell you what your miscellanious clearances add up too. The miscellanious clearances should remain about the same to carry over to your future calculations (unless you do something radical). In your case there will be one change main change realted to valves. You should be setting the valve faces flush with the head face, this will subtract from your misc clearances volume. You will then flycut your pistons, this will add extra volume back. Once you are at that point, you can cc your piston bowls with valve reliefs to get your current new CH. Now use that number and the new misc clearances number to calculate how big the bowl needs to be and create a profile for your CNC lath to follow. I hope this explains why I cant just give you "some dimensional info". Well...I actually I probably could do the math for you here, but if you can CNC, you should be able to do the math. Coming up with a good bowl geometry for the CNC path is where it takes some work and would require design time. To do it the best way, you need to first import all the existing bowl data into CAD format first. One can shortcut that step if you dont mind some small tangent errors, and small deviations in actual bowl size verses theoretical bowl size. This deviation becomes less of a factor the larger the bowl mods are, but when you are taking just tiny amounts out, blending all the curves as close as possable is nice.

raydeee said:

With the SDI i've read you loose Hp ,get one made

Click to expand...

I think that statement is a bit out of context. What it showed is that for a slightly modified build, there was no gains, and perhaps HP loss. In a 250HP+ build, where there is a lot more turbo, the results could be much different. We don't know until somebody does a dyno test on a high HP build and posts comparative results. Further, I have not seen any dyno graphs showing what the results of all these custom built intakes. I am sure there are some designs being offered that improve power, just as I am sure some of these custom intakes do nothing or even worse than OEM.

Bdpprocessors said:

If you change the shape you will loose hp but If you evenly machine the bowl and keep the original shape. It will be benifical in high boost applications

Click to expand...

that is the concept. It is not always obtainable exactly that way. There are small design changes that can be applied to the bowl shape. If the oil gallery is too close to the bowl, this can obviously force a bowl profile change.

i will be ordering the pistons in here in the next two weeks. my buddy at work ( in the engineering dept. where i hope to be once i graduate ) said we can use a probe machine to build a 3d image of the piston then using vericut send that to the machine and then i would change the offsets related to bowl deminsion to mill the bowl in the same shape just larger 1-2 thousands at a time until i get it where i want. i just have to come up with a fixture design to set the piston in. shouldnt be too hard as we build fluid control equipment and have alot of fixtues that hold round pipe like pieces. i just need to find one that will fit or make one to fit .

BUT the pistons i found from boraparts may put me pretty close to the cr i am after so i may not need to go through all this trouble. i just have to measure them up when the get here and see what needs to be done. i may just run them as is if it is close then build another motor with a lower cr using the above method and swap that in and see what the results are.

ryanp said:

Where did you read that? id like to know if it's a fact or a guess.

Click to expand...

Pretty factual

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=318784&highlight=sdi+dyno


I think even on a big turbo build having the least restrictive manifold is the best option, the longer the intake path is the worse the restrictions going to be.

m1ketdi said:

Pretty factual

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=318784&highlight=sdi+dyno


I think even on a big turbo build having the least restrictive manifold is the best option, the longer the intake path is the worse the restrictions going to be.

Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure!