CR140 Stage 3

I've been going back and forth on whether to go with a SMF next spring, or just a replacement of the stock unit and dial my tune back to the basic Stage III. With the $$$ that VW is giving for the whole dieselgate mess, the stock option is looking more attractive, and the fact that I like the way the transmission and shifting currently is. On the flip side though, I do enjoy the extra torque of the current tuning. Decisions, decisions....

ATR said:

Diesel Geek short shift user here... Also installed the APR solid shifter cable bracket
Before install I noticed that shifting was numb and I could never really feel what the transmission was doing. This resulted in a missed gears since I thought the transmission was in gear but wasn't. This happened much more often then I was accustomed to so it was time for upgrades
After install of just the bracket I noticed that shifts were MUCH crisper and honestly I could have left it there as is since it was that good. After adding the diesel geek short shifter it got that much better! Super crisp and I now know when the transmission is in gear. I actually don't think I've missed any gears since install.
Granted not all short shifters are created equally.

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Crispy gear shifting is not what you want. It is exactly how you destroy syncros.

(useless post here but...)

Congratulations on this thread making it to 100+ pages. Damn! That's a lot of discussion and info.

Got a PM regarding the slave cylinder that I think is applicable to all:

gloaming said:

Hi Jon,

JFettig said:

Syncros fail for 2 reasons:

1. Slam shifting.

2. Improper slave cylinder bleeding.

If shifting seems different than before, its either out of adjustment or the slave isn't properly bled. In either case, you'll destroy syncros. Its one of the more difficult slaves to bleed.

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I'm curious by what you meant in saying the slave cylinder is difficult to bleed? Did you mean bleeding it after you swap out the clutch or in general? I'm curious, because I bleed my slave cylinder and brake calibers a couple weeks ago and found it incredibly easy. The only difficult part was trying to find the bleed screw for the clutch. Is there something I missed here with bleeding my clutch/slave cylinder?

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You bled up to the slave, but not the slave itself. The slave itself is another 6" in. When swapping clutches you install a new slave cylinder and it needs to be filled and evacuated of air before it even goes in so it doesn't have an air pocket in it.

JFettig said:

Got a PM regarding the slave cylinder that I think is applicable to all:
You bled up to the slave, but not the slave itself. The slave itself is another 6" in. When swapping clutches you install a new slave cylinder and it needs to be filled and evacuated of air before it even goes in so it doesn't have an air pocket in it.

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i.e. bench-bleeding?

I'm honestly not sure the absolute best way to bleed it but I filled mine and actuated it by hand before I installed it. It was weird though, fluid leaked out all over but once it was installed, nothing leaked.

JFettig said:

Crispy gear shifting is not what you want. It is exactly how you destroy syncros.

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I don't understand how a short shifter will destroy syncros. If the transmission is grinding gears often then THAT will take out syncros. That was occurring for me once or twice a week with the stock shifter because the shifter was so vague. That was during normal driving attempting to get up to speed on the highway.

Again since in installed the diesel geek short shifter kit I've had zero problems with grinding gears because I can now feel what the transmission is doing through the shifter.

It's fast or careless up or down shifting that'll munch a transmission's syncros. If the transmission says "wait" by not going into gear don't force it.

JSWTDI09 said:

A short shifter will not wear out anything. What can cause wear to syncros is speed shifting (slamming the transmission into gear). A shortshifter can make speed shifting easier, but the two things are mostly unrelated. Poor shifting can be done with the stock shifter or with a short shifter. Good smooth shifts can also be done with the stock shifter or a short shifter. It is all about how you drive the car, not what hardware you have installed. Another consideration is that a good short shifter (like the DieselGeek unit) can actually improve shifting because it is far more precise than the sloppy (imprecise) stock shifter. As long as you do not drive like a "boy racer" a good short shifter could actually decrease wear. Do not let horror stories effect your buying decisions.

Also remember, in the US we have something called the Maguson-Moss Warranty act which requires manufacturers to prove that an aftermarket part actually caused a failure before they can deny warranty coverage.

Have Fun!

Don

Click to expand...

From this thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=331887

All this talk about short shifters is making me want to test drive one. I honestly have no complaints with the stock shifter. I never miss or grind shifts, and it doesn't feel all that vague to me. I grew up driving saab 900's which had very vague shifting. And I had a mx-5, which had super crisp shifts. I don't think any cable operated shifter will have the precision of a good direct shifter(like the mx-5).

When you feel resistance while going into gear, its pushing on the syncros. The increase in increase in resistance you feel with a short shifter is an increase in abuse.

I run an OEM TT short shifter in my personal car. I'll never recommend anything else.

If you give the syncros adequate time to do their job, added wear is a moot point. Length of throw should have zero bearing on how fast one can shift gears due to the mechanics involved. It all boils down to to personal preference. Personally I prefer a longer throw and longer shifter. The closer the shifter is to the steering wheel the more time I keep both hands on it during spirited or track driving .

turbobrick240 said:

All this talk about short shifters is making me want to test drive one. I honestly have no complaints with the stock shifter. I never miss or grind shifts, and it doesn't feel all that vague to me. I grew up driving Saab 900's which had very vague shifting. And I had a mx-5, which had super crisp shifts. I don't think any cable operated shifter will have the precision of a good direct shifter(like the mx-5).

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I had two cars with cable transmissions and one car with a rod linked shifter. They all (two accords of different generations and a 99 civic with polyurethane shifter bushings) felt more precise then the stock wooden spoon shifting through mashed potatoes VW shifter.

JFettig said:

When you feel resistance while going into gear, its pushing on the syncros. The increase in increase in resistance you feel with a short shifter is an increase in abuse.

I run an OEM TT short shifter in my personal car. I'll never recommend anything else.

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I think a better way to describe the diesel geek sigma 6 is smooth as butter yet very precise. Making sure the shifter is adjusted properly after install is very key to success. Diesel geek has a great 4 port how-to on just how that's done here:
http://www.dieselgeek.com/6_Speed_VW_Short_Shifter_p/ss-sigma6.htm

I think I remember reading a few posts on verious message bords that complained that the sigma 6 was hard to shift... I think that was due to getting the shifter aligned correctly. I had a little bit of a issue with that when I first installed it. Watching the video a couple times and redoing the alignment a couple more times got it dialed in just right. It did also take a little bit of time for the shifter to break in fully. Felt a tad notchy at first, but after a few weeks of use it really smoothed out quite a bit to the point of butter smooth shifts that are easy to to with one finger.

I never feel resistance going from gear to gear with the sigma 6. I would be more then happy to let you test drive my car so you can see what exactly I'm trying to put to words here

The TT SS is a great upgrade. The thing that still got to me was reusing the plastic OEM shift linkage. It really bothered me that plastic was used to save a few pennies on the interface between the driver and the transmission. That's why I chose the APR solid cable shifter bracket and Diesel Geek Sigma 6. Together they have really made for a very smooth and precise shifting action that I was looking for.

mbalmr said:

If you give the syncros adequate time to do their job, added wear is a moot point. Length of throw should have zero bearing on how fast one can shift gears due to the mechanics involved. It all boils down to to personal preference. Personally I prefer a longer throw and longer shifter. The closer the shifter is to the steering wheel the more time I keep both hands on it during spirited or track driving .

Click to expand...

This exactly!

Personal preference is the key here. So long as you're not abusing the transmission by doing things like shifting as fast as you can or not using the clutch at all between shifts forcing the gears one to the next short shifters have little to do with transmission wear.

Any recent Stage 3 dyno results? Anyone running CR170 turbo and CP3 dyno'd yet?

turbobrick240 said:

All this talk about short shifters is making me want to test drive one...

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I went DieselGeek myself. I've had it for several months and never would have thought a shifter linkage would make me love my car so much. Its a very easonable home install and Jim at DieselGeek is a pleasure to work with. Can't recommend enough!

1972SS454 said:

Any recent Stage 3 dyno results? Anyone running CR170 turbo and CP3 dyno'd yet?

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This is just Stage 2, all deletes, 171Hp & 317Lb-Ft on a Dyno Dynamics Dynomometer. This is +33Hp & +86Tq over my stock run on the same dyno with same dyno tech. Still need to give Les a call for my CR170 order.

Shorter throw means you're multiplying the fork travel vs cabin travel.

It's forcing the synchro quicker, harder because of the shorter throw.

All comes down to leverage. JFettig is correct.


Also, the talk of type of flywheel destroying synchros is bull**** in my opinion. I might be wrong, but it's my opinion.

Single Mass, dual mass, triple mass, no mass, a fat ass, cardboard flywheel, golden flywheel blah blah blah... .

If your slave, fingers, and pressure plate are functioning correctly, the input and disc should fully separate from the flywheel, having no engine harmonics or torque transfered to it, THEN synchro engagement needs to begin and fully complete, locking the output and input shaft (with the disk) , before releasing the plate, transmitting torque and harmonics... ....

If there's any flywheel and disk drag, while that poor brittle synchro is trying to match the input shaft speed to the output shaft, any violent pulses are going to raise hell with it. Point blank. No argument.

Once in gear synchros do nothing. Fully out of gear, synchros do nothing. They just float on the shaft without any side or thrust pressure.

Dog teeth and over center snaps are what keeps things in gear. I've never had a vw gearbox apart, yet, but everything else I've had apart are like that.

I'd gamble improper disk release, or drivers with lazy legs.

Combining a short throw and not adjusting your foot timing, with the possibility of not having a full mechanical release, obviously is a failure waiting to happen. I will agree with a single mass it'll be much much more violent if there is any transmitted pulses/torque to the synchros, since there's no Springs for squishy cushion.

At one point they did make gearboxes without synchros. If you have driven one, you will appreciate the world of difference synchros make. Especially a gearbox with thick gooey 90w.

.



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Just a general question for those of you with a SMF. How are the 5th and 6th gear pulls now? I purposely don't punch it before the 2000-2200 rpm range to avoid that shudder. I imagine it has to be fun to pass people on the highway with all that torque. That is the only thing I miss about the stage 1.5 is the 6th gear passes on the highway. Granted a 4th gear pass is more fun than a 6th gear pass, but sometimes having the option to not have to shift was nice.

Please don't mind the beginner question, not really educated in the performance upgrade aspect of diesels. I am currently running a Malone Stage 2 with a 2.5" exhaust system from Les @ GDM. I'm quite interested in upgrading my turbo to a CR170 with my diesel gate cards when they come in. Is it safe to run stage 2 with the CR170 turbo or would I have to go stage 3?


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Jack Diesel said:

Please don't mind the beginner question, not really educated in the performance upgrade aspect of diesels. I am currently running a Malone Stage 2 with a 2.5" exhaust system from Les @ GDM. I'm quite interested in upgrading my turbo to a CR170 with my diesel gate cards when they come in. Is it safe to run stage 2 with the CR170 turbo or would I have to go stage 3?


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Click to expand...

It's perfectly fine to run the stage 2 tune on a CR170 turbo. I did a track day at Summit Point like that before I was able to get out to GDM for the Stage 3 tune.

Thanks for the reply. Did you notice increased improvement with the upgraded turbo or are most of the improvements only noticeable when you went stage 3?


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you should notice the power hang around longer in the higher rpm range. without a tune it might take longer to spool up though.

One last question, to figure out what I would actually need to do if I go through with this. My current set up is 2.5" inch down pipe with resonator going into stock muffler. If I went CR170 & Stage 3, would I need to go 3" exhaust?


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you will need:
new turbo gasket
CR170 turbo inlet pipe
EGT spacer
EGR delete (if you don't have one already)

I'm not sure about the size of the downpipe required. I'll let someone more informed than I step in on that one.

gloaming said:

you should notice the power hang around longer in the higher rpm range. without a tune it might take longer to spool up though.

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Mine spools no different from stock.

Jack Diesel said:

One last question, to figure out what I would actually need to do if I go through with this. My current set up is 2.5" inch down pipe with resonator going into stock muffler. If I went CR170 & Stage 3, would I need to go 3" exhaust?


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Click to expand...

You do not need a 3" downpipe for the CR170. You can reuse the Stage 2 parts.

Jack Diesel said:

One last question, to figure out what I would actually need to do if I go through with this. My current set up is 2.5" inch down pipe with resonator going into stock muffler. If I went CR170 & Stage 3, would I need to go 3" exhaust?


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Click to expand...

Your 2.5" downpipe will be more than adequate for a stage 3 or 3.5 malone tune. A 2.5" free flowing exhaust will only begin to become a restriction at power levels over 250 whp. The stock muffler is more like 2.25" though. It still wouldn't be a restriction on a stage 3.5 car.

EvilEvo said:

Mine spools no different from stock.

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I meant running the turbo without a tune, but yes with a tune it's same as stock. It just kicks a lot harder

gloaming said:

I meant running the turbo without a tune, but yes with a tune it's same as stock. It just kicks a lot harder

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Mine seemed to spool quicker than stock even with the stage 2 tune. But maybe that is because the vanes in my stock turbo were stuck before it exploded.

Also, the CR170 turbo isn't really THAT much larger than stock. Still a very small turbo in the K03 family.

What other turbos are able to be swapped into a 2011 Jetta that won't require to much modification. I know the CR170 isn't a plug & play but if you already got a whole delete setup it can be easier to do.


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Jack Diesel said:

What other turbos are able to be swapped into a 2011 Jetta that won't require to much modification. I know the CR170 isn't a plug & play but if you already got a whole delete setup it can be easier to do.


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Click to expand...

This will be plug and play, but is not available yet.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=440378

This is a full kit that is already available with many turbo options.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co....-for-2-0-16v-tdi-ppd-common-rail-engines.html

I've seen the dark side page before, are all the turbos that they offer more powerful than the CR170?

I only need the turbo.


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I believe that most or all are larger than the CR170. You will not need the turbo only. It doesn't bolt up. You need their custom fabricated exhaust manifold at a minimum as well as other intercooler plumbing to make it work. If you are a metal fabricator you can try to do this yourself, but you are better off waiting for the Malone kit for a bolt on GTB kit. Or if you want to save some money and time you can go CR170 (which is why the kit was made).

Try reading this thread from page one. There is a lot of info that's already been discussed.

gloaming said:

I meant running the turbo without a tune, but yes with a tune it's same as stock. It just kicks a lot harder

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When i fitted the 170 turbo to my euro 140 without a tune the car felt exactly the same. But on a dyno it measured 153bhp at the crank.