ISO Info re the Q7 TDI -Considering Purchase

trae · Jan 24, 2019

Greetings all - we are looking for a suitable diesel SUV to replace our exploded Mercedes. In my shopping for used Touaregs, I have run across a good number of Audi Q7s. Is the Q7 platform the same as the Touareg, and if not, what are any significant differences? Additionally would appreciate all comments as to the Q7, both pro and con. It looks like those in our price range are 2013s. I made the mistake, before buying our ML350 Bluetec, of not researching them - had I, I would have found out about their notoriety for multiple oil leaks and occasionally blowing up engines for no apparent reason. Any and all comments and suggestions appreciated!

T. Rae

oilhammer · Jan 24, 2019

The MB is likely a better engine, despite what you've heard or read or experienced. I service a lot of those engines, mostly in Sprinters, that get abused, worked hard, neglected, you name it, and they keep on truckin'. I think the main difference is the oil capacity is greater, an extra 4 liters or so.

The Q7 is a stretched wheelbase, some have a third row seating, than the T'reg and Cayenne. They also come with a few more bits standard. I think they also have a few more aluminum bits to try and save some weight from the added length. The wheelbase difference is about 200mm IIRC.

The sunroofs are going to be more of an issue on the Q7.

Oh and the OM642 oil cooler seals were updated, should they ever leak. Big job to replace them, of course, but at least it can be fixed. Have you priced a new drop in engine for your ML?

Mythdoc · Jan 24, 2019

trae said:
Greetings all - we are looking for a suitable diesel SUV to replace our exploded Mercedes. In my shopping for used Touaregs, I have run across a good number of Audi Q7s. Is the Q7 platform the same as the Touareg, and if not, what are any significant differences? Additionally would appreciate all comments as to the Q7, both pro and con. It looks like those in our price range are 2013s. I made the mistake, before buying our ML350 Bluetec, of not researching them - had I, I would have found out about their notoriety for multiple oil leaks and occasionally blowing up engines for no apparent reason. Any and all comments and suggestions appreciated!

T. Rae

They have the same engine, with certain small differences. Adding DEF to a Touareg is a royal pain. The q7 is larger, heavier, but has more options (air suspension) depending on trim levels. No third row seating in a Treg. The Treg has a touchscreen, which I thought worked well. Audis don’t. The Dynaudio sound system is a must in the Treg, just as B&O is in the Audi. The Treg, in my opinion, is a better looking vehicle. The seats in the Treg are not as comfortable, most say, but the soft touch interior parts are excellent. Both brands eat tires with a ravenous appetite. There are other, smaller differences that you we can get into, but that’s the big picture.

trae · Jan 24, 2019

[QUOTE Have you priced a new drop in engine for your ML?[/QUOTE]

My mechanic indicates a spanking new engine from M-B is $27,000. They were finding complete used engines run $12,000-$13,000. This of course is just for the engine, so with the labor for the engine swap, it's a total. Unless I can organize a GTG for the engine swap and pay everyone in beer.

truman · Jan 24, 2019

Your tale doesn't seem to be rare enough. Perhaps the Sprinters are different enough to not suffer this fate. More than a few OM642 owners advise against its purchase. OH's comment about reduced oil capacity may be important. IIRC, a revised oil pan with greater capacity is available.? Oil cooler seal, timing chain stretch, leaky injector seals, and oil gelling/engine toast seem to occur to often.

Huskies2710 · Jan 24, 2019

trae said:
Greetings all - we are looking for a suitable diesel SUV to replace our exploded Mercedes. In my shopping for used Touaregs, I have run across a good number of Audi Q7s. Is the Q7 platform the same as the Touareg, and if not, what are any significant differences? Additionally would appreciate all comments as to the Q7, both pro and con. It looks like those in our price range are 2013s. I made the mistake, before buying our ML350 Bluetec, of not researching them - had I, I would have found out about their notoriety for multiple oil leaks and occasionally blowing up engines for no apparent reason. Any and all comments and suggestions appreciated!
T. Rae

This sounds horrible and definitely unexpected if you don't know. Notorious issue to fix in that SUV. My Wifes ML is going strong at 125k, but I knew about the oil issue when I saw one available in the area. The previous owners didn't know what they were getting into, got scared and sold it to me. A day at my buddies shop, a new purple oil ring instead of the faulty orange one. Benz was a steal.
https://idpartsblog.com/2018/06/11/mercedes-oil-cooler-seal-leak-on-3-0l-v6-engines/

We preferred the Mercedes SUV's over the Audi/Volkswagen SUV's, maybe don't let the one opportunity completely scare you off?

Good luck on the endeavour!

Huskies2710 · Jan 24, 2019

truman said:
Your tale doesn't seem to be rare enough. Perhaps the Sprinters are different enough to not suffer this fate. More than a few OM642 owners advise against its purchase. OH's comment about reduced oil capacity may be important. IIRC, a revised oil pan with greater capacity is available.? Oil cooler seal, timing chain stretch, leaky injector seals, and oil gelling/engine toast seem to occur to often.

Why advise against it? It's a known issue and not a difficult fix. Well documented. I haven't seen anything else outside of this issue to warrant not buying the SUV?

trae · Jan 24, 2019

We had all the leaky seals including the oil cooler seal replaced under the extended warranty (which expired 1,000 miles before the engine went bang). I understand most of these engines are probably reliable and will, like Mercedes diesels are legendary for, make it 500,000 miles before the heads need to come off for anything. I am just leery due to several instances of Bluetecs blowing themselves up in the MB forums, and my mechanic had heard of a couple others. Yes I would be the guy who got struck by lightening twice. We loved the car - it's just that I feel it's time to revert back to TDIs, as I used to own them for years, and apart from window regulator issues on my B4 Passats, they were tough as a bag of hammers. After seeing the Benz stricken with a giant oil slick under it like the pool of blood under a victim on a murder show, and picking through the trail of connecting rod bits puked out behind it, I would be squeamish about getting another one. Mechanic strongly recommends against BMW diesel, the other option out there; he works on a lot of German cars and reports many BMW owners have come to him with headache after headache. So, unless there's anything diesel out there I am unaware of, that leaves us with the Touareg and Audi TDIs as our diesel SUV options.

truman · Jan 24, 2019

://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-forum/616081-diesel-vs-gasoline-engine-reliability.html

oilhammer · Jan 24, 2019

Never touched, original everything except glow plugs.... eventually just shy of 1/2 million miles the HPFP died. New (Bosch reman) one installed, and it was off and going again. DPF was needed for a while, but they refused to replace it.

It is still on the road in a different area now, over 600k miles I am told. Loaded and run hard every day.

No rust either, despite running back and forth from Chicago to STL all year round:

It was the bullet proof experience of servicing these that led me to purchase my own Sprinter two years ago. Biggest issue we see is SCR related stuff (so only 2010+) and they redesigned that in 2014, which has so far not yielded any issues. There were some cracked DPF brackets, but a revised reinforced version came along. I got the OM651 engine, though, as it has plenty of power for me and has a nicer transmission... but for 2019 they are all supposed to get that 7sp G-tronic.

We only use 229.51 spec 5w40 oil and Mann filters, if that means anything. Not sure what all these engines having issues are using, but the correct stuff seems to do fine here. We do service a few E/M/GLE class diesels, too, but mostly Sprinters.

But hey, we are all gluttons for punishment, right? I mean, when I leave work tonight, I am going to jump into a 19 year old Golf with 548,xxx miles on it and drive ~50 miles home... I am sure to break down, right?

But seriously, OP, I understand your admiration of your B4 Passat TDI, and wholeheartedly welcome you back to the VAG side of the diesel cult. Just know that whatever experience good or bad your old Passat gave you, the Q7 is a VASTLY different animal. Simple it isn't.

Huskies2710 · Jan 24, 2019

trae said:
We had all the leaky seals including the oil cooler seal replaced under the extended warranty (which expired 1,000 miles before the engine went bang). I understand most of these engines are probably reliable and will, like Mercedes diesels are legendary for, make it 500,000 miles before the heads need to come off for anything. I am just leery due to several instances of Bluetecs blowing themselves up in the MB forums, and my mechanic had heard of a couple others. Yes I would be the guy who got struck by lightening twice. We loved the car - it's just that I feel it's time to revert back to TDIs, as I used to own them for years, and apart from window regulator issues on my B4 Passats, they were tough as a bag of hammers. After seeing the Benz stricken with a giant oil slick under it like the pool of blood under a victim on a murder show, and picking through the trail of connecting rod bits puked out behind it, I would be squeamish about getting another one. Mechanic strongly recommends against BMW diesel, the other option out there; he works on a lot of German cars and reports many BMW owners have come to him with headache after headache. So, unless there's anything diesel out there I am unaware of, that leaves us with the Touareg and Audi TDIs as our diesel SUV options.

Yeah I can understand what your saying. My friend with the dealership and auto shop also says stay away from BMW. For whatever my two cents might be worth lol. He won't sell one to a friend that's how adamite he is about it.

German luxury is always taking a chance but it seems Mercedes and Audi reliability shoots up when it's a diesel instead of gasoline.

trae · Jan 24, 2019

But seriously said:
Yeah I fear the days of my being able to hotrod a TDI by simply plugging different chips (do they use chips anymore?) in the ECU, screwing in bigger injectors and cutting out the muffler are over. I did all kinds of maintenance on the Passats, and our first generation NB. I fear my skill set at replacing brake pads/discs, alternators, installing custom intakes, manifold cleaning, etc. on these cars won't take me very far on either an Audi or a Touareg, whichever we end up with. And I doubt that you can double the power output of either for a grand the way I did with my B4 wagon. It was an awesome car, looked like something a suburban housewife would drive to the mall, but would lay a patch, bruise your kidneys, and easily hit 130mph. My favorite repair was when the upper clutch cable mount broke; I ordered a new one, but in order to be able to drive in all gears, reconstructed the old one with zip ties. It worked great and it took me months to get around to installing the new one. Plus they were all stick, which you can't even get anymore. Those were the days.

oilhammer · Jan 25, 2019

You may find a newer A or B segment VAG TDI will provide something closer to your good experiences from the older stuff. The Q7 is "cool" in its own way, but not something I would really want unless I really "needed" something of that type... and even then I don't think I could stomach driving it every day if I drove a lot. The tires alone would kill me, LOL.

You may also compromise and look at the Q5 TDI. Same engine, but in a smaller car-based (Audi A4) package but sits up a little higher. VASTLY more fun to drive. There is no Volkswagen branded equivalent to the Q5. The Q5 TDI also gets the best power-to-weight ratio of any TDI sold here...they really scoot. It will be far easier on tires and brakes, easier to park and maneuver around town, too.

You'll probably still get stuck with the pano roof, though, as I doubt you could ever find one of those without it. Which sucks.

Mythdoc · Jan 25, 2019

oilhammer said:
You may also compromise and look at the Q5 TDI. Same engine, but in a smaller car-based (Audi A4) package but sits up a little higher. VASTLY more fun to drive. There is no Volkswagen branded equivalent to the Q5. The Q5 TDI also gets the best power-to-weight ratio of any TDI sold here...they really scoot. It will be far easier on tires and brakes, easier to park and maneuver around town, too.

Having gone from a Touareg to a Q5, gotta agree with the above. But I did really also like my Touareg, though it is hard not to like any experience that ends with a $48,000 buyout on a seven years old, $56,000 vehicle, LOL.

trae · Jan 25, 2019

oilhammer said:
You may also compromise and look at the Q5 TDI. Same engine, but in a smaller car-based (Audi A4) package but sits up a little higher. VASTLY more fun to drive. There is no Volkswagen branded equivalent to the Q5. The Q5 TDI also gets the best power-to-weight ratio of any TDI sold here...they really scoot. It will be far easier on tires and brakes, easier to park and maneuver around town, too.
You'll probably still get stuck with the pano roof, though, as I doubt you could ever find one of those without it. Which sucks.

Ya know, I had initially considered the Q5 - 2015s can be had for less than 2013 Touaregs or Q7s and they sure are cute. Had kind of ruled it out, because has less cargo area than the Touareg, and we were kinda spoiled by our ML350 which, other than exploding on the highway, was an awesome car with lots of cargo space. But, Q5 is still a 5-passenger car, with enough room for the groceries or the occasional Costco or Home Depot run. Economy is likely slightly better, also. I like the three row seating option in the Q7; would make it a lot easier road tripping with three people and four dogs. But for those occasional usages, we can always rent a minivan. 90% ot the driving would be with a solo driver or driver and passenger. How is the Q5 in the snow? All say the Touareg is a snow beast. So was our Benz. Occasionally, in Chicago, this matters. Likely the Q5 Quattro system is excellent, but wouldn't it have less ground clearance than the Touareg or Q7?

"they really scoot. It will be far easier on tires and brakes, easier to park and maneuver around town, too" is definitely in its favor. I like the "really scoot" part especially if I can convince the better half that we simply must budget for stage II tuning. Plus I kinda like the panoramic roof. I know we're talking apples and oranges here, and likely any of the three vehicles will be more than satisfactory. I will want to put a hitch on it - given that all three vehicles have the same engine, is the Q5 rated to tow a similar load as the others? My ML350 had a tow rating of 7,000lb.

oilhammer · Jan 25, 2019

The Q5 is not as much of a tow vehicle as the others. Like I said, it is an adaptation of a passenger car, not a purpose built SUV like the T'reg/Cayenne/Q7. But if 90% of your driving is a solo occupant....

Whenever you consider a vehicle to fit all needs, there will always be some needs that it falls short. Nothing with check all the boxes with perfection.

Even the FWD cars are good in the snow, so the AWD Q5 will be too. They do sit up higher (ground clearance) than the A4 upon which they are based.

trae · Jan 25, 2019

oilhammer said:
The Q5 is not as much of a tow vehicle as the others. Like I said, it is an adaptation of a passenger car, not a purpose built SUV like the T'reg/Cayenne/Q7. But if 90% of your driving is a solo occupant....
Whenever you consider a vehicle to fit all needs, there will always be some needs that it falls short. Nothing with check all the boxes with perfection.
Even the FWD cars are good in the snow, so the AWD Q5 will be too. They do sit up higher (ground clearance) than the A4 upon which they are based.

OH I like your reasoning. Either we drive around 90% of the time with excess vehicle which is slower, less efficient, harder to park, and eats tire, or get what meets most of our needs, and rent something bigger occasionally.

OR we go for the Q5 and I pull for our second vehicle being either a 2004-'08 V10 Touareg, or a Duramax double cab....

Have located a local dealer who has both 2014 Q5 and Q7 advertised. As my better half will be doing 70% of the 90% of the driver-only driving, whichever we end up with will be a team decision.

oilhammer · Jan 25, 2019

The thing is, pickup trucks are relatively cheap to buy used... they are all over. And even a pretty basic half ton pickup is going to be a better tow vehicle than any Audi. Plus you can have the cargo capability if needed. Or a van. All depends on what if any extra space and expense you can tolerate for an extra vehicle that is driven rarely.

I have a small fleet, despite by wife and I being the only ones that drive in the household. And she is a stay-at-home mom, so there are some days where she doesn't go anywhere at all. But driving a Golf every day allows me to have a truck (older F150) and a van (newish Sprinter) on call if needed, and because I like backups, a couple of extra dubs (they're old, not worth much now, cheap to insure).

But I live in the country, and have no problem with parking space. Others may not be so fortunate.

Mythdoc · Jan 25, 2019

The Q5 is very good in snow, real Quattro system not the dumbed down version in the new generation Q5 (2018+). I have a 2015. Because there are so many more of this model out there, it is a buyer’s market for used Q5 TDIs. Look for sport package and you get superb upgraded seats and paddle shifters. Look for S-line and you get other goodies as well. Black optics packages are available that look nice. Standard is 19” wheels, 20” on upgraded packages. Pros and cons there. Handling is much, much better on 20’s, but 19’s are noticeably quieter and they absorb the imperfections of the road. I use 20’s on summer rubber then switch to 19’s A/S for winter.

I have not had a problem with my panoramic roof, but I never use it, either.

trae · Jan 25, 2019

oilhammer said:
The thing is, pickup trucks are relatively cheap to buy used... they are all over. And even a pretty basic half ton pickup is going to be a better tow vehicle than any Audi. Plus you can have the cargo capability if needed. Or a van. All depends on what if any extra space and expense you can tolerate for an extra vehicle that is driven rarely.
I have a small fleet, despite by wife and I being the only ones that drive in the household. And she is a stay-at-home mom, so there are some days where she doesn't go anywhere at all. But driving a Golf every day allows me to have a truck (older F150) and a van (newish Sprinter) on call if needed, and because I like backups, a couple of extra dubs (they're old, not worth much now, cheap to insure).
But I live in the country, and have no problem with parking space. Others may not be so fortunate.

Right now the Duramax is a pipedream due to financial constraints. Our former second, and now only car, is a Hyundai Elantra. But finances are picking up, and the Elantra may eventually be gifted to my son, who just started his first big boy job out of college. That would open up the possibility of the Duramax pickup or similar as a secondary vehicle. The 1st generation Touareg V10 will likely remain on the bucket list for awhile. But not necessarily forever. We have one dedicated garage space that isn't taken up by the motorcycles, and adequate street parking to easily park two additional vehicles. Hold that thought. I also am jonesing for a FIAT 500 Abarth. I need something with a stick, although these are likely more common when you get into used trucks.....

Googled the Q5 TDI towing capacity which is listed at 4,400lb and likely has plenty of margin built in, as the same mechanicals drive the Touareg and Q7. I was able to tow a popup with my former Escape Hybrid (why I bought that I will never know, the Benz got much better MPG) so likely a Q5 would handle anything I will need, unless I get a fifth wheel or a horse trailer. Which in the middle of Chicago is a long shot.

trae · Jan 25, 2019

Correction-just fount 5,280lb towing capacity for the Q5. Should work.

trae · Jan 25, 2019

A warranty question - were the Audi TDIs subject to the same dieselgate recall, that applied to the VW TDIs, and accordingly, to the warranty extension of 10 years/120k or 4 years/48k from the recall fix, whichever is greater? Or no? If not, what warranty came with the Audi TDIs from Audi? Thanks

Mythdoc · Jan 25, 2019

trae said:
A warranty question - were the Audi TDIs subject to the same dieselgate recall, that applied to the VW TDIs, and accordingly, to the warranty extension of 10 years/120k or 4 years/48k from the recall fix, whichever is greater? Or no? If not, what warranty came with the Audi TDIs from Audi? Thanks

Yes, same warranty applies.

trae · Jan 26, 2019

Well we went to compare Audis.....I really liked the pickup and handling of the Q5 but it is a little tight quarters. I made the mistake of letting Mrs. T. Rae drive the Q7. Then we went to another dealer who has an '013 Q7 with only 40k miles which I must say is a creampuff. Has all the deluxe packages - Premium Plus, heated steering wheel, 3rd row seats etc. etc. The tires - well, they're round, but am underwhelmed at the amount of tread left. How much should I expect to pay for a new set, from Tire Rack, mounted and balanced? Autotrader already lists the car as a "great price" and I need something to negotiate with. These guys will act like they have buyers lined up - but it's January in Chicago, 10 degrees and snowing, it was a big dealership with only one other customer, and the sales reps were on us like we were *****es in heat. Help me out here - apart from tires before long, anything else befall Q7s such that I can use it to negotiate? They are asking $24,800.

Wife says in exchange for going for the Q7 over the Q5, she'll be ok with springing for a Stage II tune......

Mythdoc · Jan 26, 2019

When I had the Touareg highly rated, name brand tires easily went $1K+ for a set.

tactdi · Jan 28, 2019

Open up TireRack's webpage, and browse the tire options for the Q7.

Using the price point to want to spend (and type of tire), there will be many options. Or better yet, call a local tire store and ask for a price, mounted and balanced of their top tier tire, and use that as a negotiating point.

Do not let the dealer put tires on the Q7 before you buy it, they will put the cheapest (to them), and lowest quality tires on. Like you said, they will be black and round.

trae · Jan 28, 2019

tactdi said:
Do not let the dealer put tires on the Q7 before you buy it, they will put the cheapest (to them), and lowest quality tires on. Like you said, they will be black and round.

LOL no doubt

Huskies2710 · Jan 29, 2019

trae said:
LOL no doubt

Trae, I PM'd you. I live in Chicago. Did not realize you were in the area after talking about the Mercedes that we have as well.

I can possibly help your situation if interested. My buddy owns a used luxury dealership where he handles a lot of wholesale cars. He won't have the SUV now, but he will be personable and search around the area to find the specific requirements you are looking for. A tad slower process but he won't be breathing down your neck.

Kindly disregard if not interested.

trae · Jan 29, 2019

Huskies2710 said:
Trae, I PM'd you. I live in Chicago. Did not realize you were in the area after talking about the Mercedes that we have as well.
I can possibly help your situation if interested. My buddy owns a used luxury dealership where he handles a lot of wholesale cars. He won't have the SUV now, but he will be personable and search around the area to find the specific requirements you are looking for. A tad slower process but he won't be breathing down your neck.
Kindly disregard if not interested.

I may be. Am on work computer right now so unable to open messages due to popup blocker - I did find a 2013 Premium Plus in DesPlaines which apart from one small door ding looks brand new, and has less than 41k miles......it will need tires soon and due to ice on the roof we were unable to see if the sunroof worked, all items for negotiation - they have contacted me both yesterday and today, so appears they are "motivated" - I figured tonight or maybe tomorrow night prior to month end, and in the middle of the Arctic cold snap, might be a good time to play let's make a deal. Still negotiating with my carrier on the settlement on the totaled Mercedes....they are not offering me enough to cover the balance on my loan

& even if I get them to come up a couple grand, will still have a balance on it but beats being out of pocket - new MB Bluetec engines are $27k and used ones run $12k-$13k

so am counting my blessings. I will check your PM as soon as I can on a different computer.

ApriliaNut · Jan 30, 2019

trae said:
I may be. Am on work computer right now so unable to open messages due to popup blocker - I did find a 2013 Premium Plus in DesPlaines which apart from one small door ding looks brand new, and has less than 41k miles......it will need tires soon and due to ice on the roof we were unable to see if the sunroof worked, all items for negotiation - they have contacted me both yesterday and today, so appears they are "motivated" - I figured tonight or maybe tomorrow night prior to month end, and in the middle of the Arctic cold snap, might be a good time to play let's make a deal. Still negotiating with my carrier on the settlement on the totaled Mercedes....they are not offering me enough to cover the balance on my loan & even if I get them to come up a couple grand, will still have a balance on it but beats being out of pocket - new MB Bluetec engines are $27k and used ones run $12k-$13k so am counting my blessings. I will check your PM as soon as I can on a different computer.

Oh man you should be able to negotiate a killer deal tomorrow 1/31/19!! That is if the dealer is even open for business with the record cold weather and if you can navigate there in person lol ....if not, then there's always the ubiquitous phone call route!

Would be interesting also to see what Huskies friend can find you at the auction and how much savings that might be....Could be worth "waiting it out" to see what he can resource.

Keep us "vicarious buyers" posted!!

ISO Info re the Q7 TDI -Considering Purchase

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