Mandated B10 and B20 in a 2011 JSW

I ran into an interesting situation.
Minnesota is mandated B5 right now, we are moving to B10 on May 1, 2012 and B20 on May 1, 2015. I am looking at a 2011 JSW, manual. How is my warrantee NOT going to be void on May 1, 2012? I’d hate to have a HPFP issue after 2012… no reason for VW to honor it when I have been MANDATED to fuel it improperly.
Only manufacture I know of that allows B20 is the new 2011 Superduty's 6.7L powerstroke.

The 12V shouldn't care. I've got the same truck with a 6-speed swap and double the miles. I think it'll run on Crisco if you put it in the tank.

To answer your question, I'd suggest emailing VW NA and see how they reply.

The 12V shouldn't care. I've got the same truck with a 6-speed swap and double the miles. I think it'll run on Crisco if you put it in the tank.

To answer your question, I'd suggest emailing VW NA and see how they reply.

All of my current rigs are out of warrantee, this would be for the 2011 JSW I'm looking at.

Wow that's a tough situation. Like Toeball said, contact VW to see how they're going to react to it. The only workaround I can think of is buying fuel out-of-state, but that's massively inconvenient. Will the semi-trucks be forced to run B20 also?

FWIW, BioDiesel has great lubricity [way better than ULSD, even treated with additives], so there shouldn't be any HPFP issues unless water ends up being a failure trigger. [crosses fingers it's not]

I dropped VW america an email.

Only thing I may be able to do is buy B5 in the winter (as they have mandated only B10 and B20 during the summer) starting in 2012.


Buying fuel out of state isn't an option.

Westro said:

I ran into an interesting situation.
Minnesota is mandated B5 right now, we are moving to B10 on May 1, 2012 and B20 on May 1, 2015. I am looking at a 2011 JSW, manual. How is my warrantee NOT going to be void on May 1, 2012? I’d hate to have a HPFP issue after 2012… no reason for VW to honor it when I have been MANDATED to fuel it improperly.
Only manufacture I know of that allows B20 is the new 2011 Superduty's 6.7L powerstroke.

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Sounds to me like you need to send out to certified letters. One to VOA the other to your representative letting each know you have contacted the other.

This is a non-issue. There are many 2009-2011 owners running solely on B20 with routine UOA and absolutely NO ill effects.

If I had access to B20, that's all I would run in my 2010. I wouldn't dilute it, even if I could.

VW reps have publicly stated that you should use what's available and not worry about it. They would not sell a car in a market where no acceptable fuel is available.

Biffster said:

This is a non-issue. There are many 2009-2011 owners running solely on B20 with routine UOA and absolutely NO ill effects.

If I had access to B20, that's all I would run in my 2010. I wouldn't dilute it, even if I could.

VW reps have publicly stated that you should use what's available and not worry about it. They would not sell a car in a market where no acceptable fuel is available.

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I see .... what were we thinkin' VOA would neva' do anythin' like that. If it weren't for the apparent contradiction of posts here on the forum where they have already claimed that VOA has rejected claims based on fuel issues ...

Obviously the owners mistake, oops.

ChippedNotBroken said:

I see .... what were we thinkin' VOA would neva' do anythin' like that. If it weren't for the apparent contradiction of posts here on the forum where they have already claimed that VOA has rejected claims based on fuel issues ...

Obviously the owners mistake, oops.

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Slow your roll, big fella... you read something into the post.

The fuel contamination claims by VW are invariably RUG-related, and have nothing to do with Biodiesel. In fact, I haven't seen a single HPFP failure reported that used any percentage of retail commercial BD.

All I'm saying is, B5-B20 is nothing to be concerned about and, if anything, I would use B20 straight-up over plain ol' D2.

I can only wish I were in the OP's situation.

Biffster said:

Slow your roll, big fella... you read something into the post.

The fuel contamination claims by VW are invariably RUG-related, and have nothing to do with Biodiesel. In fact, I haven't seen a single HPFP failure reported that used any percentage of retail commercial BD.

All I'm saying is, B5-B20 is nothing to be concerned about and, if anything, I would use B20 straight-up over plain ol' D2.

I can only wish I were in the OP's situation.

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I think we can all agree, B5-B20 is good for our HPFP lubricity issues and so far anecdotal data indicates there isn't an oil dilution problem with up to B20. But, the big unknown right now is what impact higher biodiesel blends (>B5) may have on the DPF during it's post combustion injection (Active regeneration), particularly as the DPF reaches it's design 'end of life' i.e. perhaps a premature filling from ash.

From a chemistry point of view there are very significant differences between Bio and Petro Diesel and I suspect that higher blends might potentially be a problem for the rather delicate balance of chemistry that goes on in our emission systems, it's not been said much, but my guess is that may be more what's behind VW's B5 recommendation more than anything else. Just a guess.

I think that's the battle we'll have with VW over higher BioD blends on the 09-11 TDI's; premature DPF failure.

I'd like to run >B5.....BUT here is an interesting article regarding the >B5 oil dilution problem with post injection technology.

A New Understanding of Biodiesel’s Dilution Effect
Volkswagen is using post-injection for regeneration and according to Stuart Johnson with the Engineering and Environmental Office of Volkswagen Group of America, the issue of oil dilution from biodiesel is a real concern for the automakers. “We can tolerate up to 50 percent fuel mix in the oil but no more,” he said at the 2008 National Biodiesel Conference.

Volkswagen tests using B5 and post-injection showed 45 percent oil dilution after 10,000 miles, but surprisingly no engine damage was evident upon inspection. “Using B10 at 10,000 miles surpasses that 50 percent threshold—and that is unacceptable,” Johnson said. “We want longer oil change intervals as a car company, so it’s hard for us to talk about this.” The implications are that increased fuel dilution due to biodiesel blends could lead to premature engine wear if oil changes are not done more often.


Here is the article:

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290

Here is VWs response.

Thank you for contacting Volkswagen. We are glad to see your interest in purchasing the 2011 Jetta SportWagen!
Blends of up to 5% biodiesel (B5) made from soybean oil or other natural farm products are suitable for our diesel engines. Volkswagen is currently researching the suitability of higher percentage biodiesel blends; however, no conclusive decision has been reached at this time. Using blends of biodiesel higher than 5% will invalidate our warranty until a future decision is reached. Attached to this e-mail, you will find a brochure that discuss Volkswagen’s position on biodiesel usage in greater detail.
We encourage you to continue to discuss your biodiesel concerns with the Service Manager or a Service Advisor at your local authorized dealer. The technicians at our dealers receive service and maintenance updates on our vehicles directly from the engineering resources at Volkswagen of America. Feel free to phone the Volkswagen Information Center at 1-800-DRIVE-VW (1-800-374-8389) for the location of dealers in your area.
Thank you again for visiting vw.com. We truly value your membership in the Volkswagen family!


PM me with your email address and I can send the .pdf.

In other words, if you have damage that THEY determine was caused by state mandated bio blends greater than 5% your outta luck.

Wasn't there someone here in the Austin area that tried bio in a 2009 and had these problems?

UberVW_TDI said:

I'd like to run >B5.....BUT here is an interesting article regarding the >B5 oil dilution problem with post injection technology.

A New Understanding of Biodiesel’s Dilution Effect
Volkswagen is using post-injection for regeneration and according to Stuart Johnson with the Engineering and Environmental Office of Volkswagen Group of America, the issue of oil dilution from biodiesel is a real concern for the automakers. “We can tolerate up to 50 percent fuel mix in the oil but no more,” he said at the 2008 National Biodiesel Conference.

Volkswagen tests using B5 and post-injection showed 45 percent oil dilution after 10,000 miles, but surprisingly no engine damage was evident upon inspection. “Using B10 at 10,000 miles surpasses that 50 percent threshold—and that is unacceptable,” Johnson said. “We want longer oil change intervals as a car company, so it’s hard for us to talk about this.” The implications are that increased fuel dilution due to biodiesel blends could lead to premature engine wear if oil changes are not done more often.


Here is the article:

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290

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The article should bring a big question mark into people's mind when they add all kinds of biodiesel concentrations and additives into the fuel tank. Without a detailed engineering analysis, you never know what, if anything, will end up in the crankcase.

“Using post-injection you will generally see elevated levels of fuel dilution regardless of what fuel you’re using”

People add stuff in the belief that they are saving the HPFP, when they might likely be reducing the longevity of their engines.

Basically VW is waiting for the lubricant industry to come out with a better engine oil to combat bio diesel dilution before permitting us to use anything higher than B5.

Meanwhile, frequently oil change still remains the best preventive measure against engine wear.

I seriously question ANY fuel/oil dilution in BD percentages of B20 and below. Many people here have submitted rigorous / routine UOA of their 2009-2010 TDI's run exclusively on B20 after THOUSANDS of miles accumulated and show absolutely NO fuel-oil dilution at all.

I would take VW's doom-and-gloom prognosis with a seriously large grain of sodium.

Biffster said:

VW reps have publicly stated that you should use what's available and not worry about it. They would not sell a car in a market where no acceptable fuel is available.

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That's basically what the service guy told me at the dealership when I took the car in for it's 60-day checkup.

Skip

Edit: Just called them. They referred me to VWoA (800-822-8987). Calling now...

Biffster said:

I would take VW's doom-and-gloom prognosis with a seriously large grain of sodium.

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Sodium Chloride. Sodium is highly flammable, which might be appropriate for a forum.

Honestly, I like bio in theory, but to mandate such high concentrations, it would need to be done at the federal level to push the auto industry in that direction. A state doing it is of very limited efficacy. Notice how some vehicles are available with the California emissions package, usually de-tuned (even if they don't really talk about that part). Usually, that's a half way approach to keep in that market, if it's worth the effort.

So as I indicated above, I called VWoA. I read them the bit from Westro's post about invalidating the warranty: Using blends of biodiesel higher than 5% will invalidate our warranty until a future decision is reached. I also explained to them that I'm basically stuck with something between B5 and B20 here in Illinois. They could offer no suggestions. I figure I will just have to pester them every few months until they conclude their research on the topic.

What I find frustrating is that they apparently know the situation but sell the cars into regions where they know that most/all owners can't get the required fuel.

Skip

smontanaro said:

What I find frustrating is that they apparently know the situation but sell the cars into regions where they know that most/all owners can't get the required fuel.

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This exposes them to legal liability, regardless of their statements negating the use of >B5, as they continue to sell these vehicles in areas known to lack fuel that meets their requirements. It's a de facto admission on their part, as they do not instruct their dealer sales network in these areas to explicitly warn potential buyers (i.e. "we'd love for you to buy our car, but you can't use the fuel in this state if you do, or your warranty will be void post haste!")

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb and say that they (VW) will not deny a warranty claims based upon Biodiesel usage at B20 and below -- at least in these areas.

I'd LOVE to be in your shoes. I would (and have, on long interstate trips where available) love to put nothing but B20 in my still-under-warranty 2010 JSW TDI. I would use nothing but (with maybe a dash of PS DK for water/cetane/cleaners). I'm willing to wager that my TDI would be the much better for it.

If you're still concerned, just run a UOA at 5K-7K miles between oil changes and monitor the oil level at each fill-up. This will tell you immediately if there is any fuel diluting the oil (which there will not be).

Then, can we use B10 every other tank, alternating with D2?
Or, B20 every fourth tank?

Hank101 said:

Then, can we use B10 every other tank, alternating with D2?
Or, B20 every fourth tank?

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B20 every fourth tank is B20 every fourth tank, with B-nothing the other three tanks.

If you want to make B5, the mix ratio should be 1/Gal B20 to 3/Gal D2 in the same tank at the same time.

I'd just stick with B10 or B20 for every tank, if that's what was lucky enough to have access to.

I am in the habit of sampling at or before oil change. I think of it as periodic blood test.

If I had no choice but use b20 I'd be sending my sample to Blackstone labs at 5-7k.

It seems to me that one should be able to recognize oil dilution by a gradual rise in the oil level indicated on the dipstick. If the engine holds about 5 quarts, then a "50 percent dilution" may be like adding 2.5 quarts. Wouldn't about 1/4 of a quart difference be noticeable on the dipstick?

I've been running B2 for 5000 miles since the last oil change, and the oil level hasn't changed noticeably on the dipstick. I'd like to hear what others are seeing with the B10 or B20 mandated in some jurisdictions. Maybe just change the oil when you notice the level up 1/2 quart or so.

Is it possible that the VW tests with biodiesel blends may have been performed with post-combustion injection 100% of the time instead of the 1% or so of the time that DPF regeneration occurs in typical use?

This is what seems so fishy about this engine oil dilution thing. It seems regular engine oil is somehow swapping for bio during this process, since as you noted, bio users would notice an extra 2.5 liters of oil. It can't be burning off the oil since our cars have oil separation and recovery equipment, so where the heck does it go??

ronaldleemhuis said:

It seems to me that one should be able to recognize oil dilution by a gradual rise in the oil level indicated on the dipstick. If the engine holds about 5 quarts, then a "50 percent dilution" may be like adding 2.5 quarts. Wouldn't about 1/4 of a quart difference be noticeable on the dipstick?

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After reading the article on dilution (again, I first read that in 2008), doesn't it seem prudent to just change your oil at 5k intervals if you are using above B5? Data is data, and if dilution occurs, just change oil at less than 10k until a new oil comes out that is better for >B5.

And, I would not really expect to see an "increase" oil level as a result of dilution... You would need to do a organic chemical analysis (and make a mixing curve).

-b

As far as I know, no one here has experienced any fuel dilution using Biodiesel up-to B20, and that's with regular UOA to verify.

One forum member tried using B100 for a few tanks, but DID begin to notice a substantial RISE in the oil level after a few tanks, so yes, BD dilution WILL result in an increase in oil level.

...crazy, I honestly never would have thought you would get any noticeable oil dilution form B20, or even B100.... And, there has to be a lot if you can notice from the dip-stick. I was thinking that just a small amount of dilution could affect the quality/properties of the engine oil.

So, if you wanted a car to run on B100, what would you do to prevent dilution - higher compression or more complete fuel consumption??

Thanks for the info Biffster!

-b