Nozzles and/or Tune for MPG

First thing first. I don't want this thread going off the rails for "You spent $XXX.XX dollars on that! You'll have to drive [insert ridiculously high number] of miles to pay for itself comments. I get it, and I don't really care. I don't think I'll spend over $1000, but this is more of a goal than a cost savings mission.
Furthermore, this isn't a, what mods will get me to my MPG goal?, it's about Nozzles and tuning.


That being said, I'm looking at getting either a tune and/or nozzles for my ALH quite soon. I've read all over the place about different nozzles and tunes, but what are your personal takes? I've been hovering around 48mpg range for some time. I personally want the vehicle to hit low 50's easily.Vehicle has 220k on original injectors/nozzles. See my sig for fuelly info but 90% or more of my miles are highway. I'm also not an insane P&G guy. Mostly steady speeds I'm not too concerned with power, so that's really just icing on my MPG cake . I'd be stoked if I could get 3MPG from these items.

Nozzles, tune, or both? Who has used one before the other, specifically nozzles before a tune and how did your mpg change. Please state what nozzles (size, etc.) and tune (brand, stage/settings) you had or have, and any aspects you did/didn't like about your setup. If you have fuelly, or ecomodder links for threads or fuel logs that would also be awesome.
Any feedback is appreciated!

Nozzles give you an increase in torque. A tune gives you more boost and different fuel MAP. With stock turbo I started with PP520's and RC2 the went to RC3; RC3 is a nice driveable tune though not great power. I routinely got 46-48mpg at 80 mph with this setup.

Now I have RC4.5 now and VNT 17/22 now and lots of power.

Oh nozzles alone you clutch will be fine, add tune add new clutch.

You're getting 49mpg and you're aiming for 50mpg?

Subject title: Nozzles and/or Tune for MPG

A Stage 1 "eco tune" and be done. THAT would give you 50mpg (given the info that you've presented, though somewhat incomplete- for all we know that ALH is in a Vanagon, in which case you're NOT going to hit 50mpg [I can discount it being in a Vanagon because you're saying you're currently getting 49mpg, which isn't really possible]). Manual trans? (I'm thinking so- again, the 49mpg comment)

Now then, if you're wanting to be able to achieve better FE AND have better AVAILABLE performance, a tune plus an increase in fueling (i.e. larger nozzles) is readily achievable. Notice my capitalizing "AVAILABLE;" I did this because one cannot have BOTH better FE AND more performance at the SAME time- if you hit the GO pedal harder your engine will now deliver and thus consume more fuel: on an efficiency basis you're better, but miles per gallon won't be better.

I went with DLC520 nozzles and a Malone stage 2 in both my Golfs: OK, I just picked up another Golf, but it too has the same nozzles and tune (I'm quite sold on this combo). You can look up my FE history on Fuelly.com: user "UhOh." I wanted my cars configured the same to make them easier to maintain; and, given that my wife was/is hung up on FE I couldn't look to go with much heavier fueling (though she'll likely end up with the new Golf, which also happens to have an 11mm IP- she doesn't know what this means, in which case we'll see how FE works out for her with it).

In general, new nozzles, professionally mounted and set up, will give you better FE and performance over old nozzles and worn injectors. A tune can help optimize everything, especially if you introducing the ability to deliver more fueling.

Going above say a Malone stage 1.5 tune and you're looking at needing a clutch upgrade: one of my cars couldn't hold the power from the DLC520s and the stage 2 tune, while the other (with more miles) has (and I'm still scratching my head as to why- either someone put a stronger clutch at some point before we got it or it's just a freak).

I will add that the car uhoh just bought above has the 11mm pump (left over from the auto to manual swap) and with dlc520 and stage 2 tune, it appears to have more pep than the 10mm setup has.
Bottom line though for my alh fleet, the dlc520 nozzle, Malone stage 2 tunes yields the best power to FE combo for the 11mm pump and for the 10mm pump, the dlc1019, Malone stage 2 is on par without equipment mods.

I started with .205 nozzles and what a difference.

Then a tuning box which was a noticeable bump in power but very smokey when stepping on it. I would leave a cloud that cars behind couldn't see through.

Then the 1019's nozzles which seemed about the same as the .205's

Then we got a Malone Tune and power was smoother and more refined and the smoke went way down.

I agree with the DLC1019's nozzles. Previous to my latest updates, I ran a 10mm pump, 1019's, EGR delete and Malone Stage 3 tune. I had to change my clutch to South Bend Stage 2 unit. Mainly due to the DMF failure that I had.

The Beetle really woke up. Mileage was more than expected but not really recorded well.

Performance was recently dyno'd at 117hp/215tq (with the parts listed above and just before the latest upgrades) The stock values are: 89ph/150tq.

Pretty good performance jump for a few select items. The mileage was always better than expected.

Now we are getting silly power out of the ALH but that's another story!

Thanks for the input ya'll!

You're getting 49mpg and you're aiming for 50mpg?

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I was actually aiming more toward the low 50's. If I could hit 900 mile tanks that would be excellent and require right around 52.5mpg. This is NOT a Vanagon. Alh Golf 4dr 5spd with stock tire size and 5th gear

Going above say a Malone stage 1.5 tune and you're looking at needing a clutch upgrade

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I think I'll be good on the clutch. I'll probably go stage 1.5 or 2. I don't gas that hard and I replaced the clutch with a new LUK DMF set about 20k ago. Malone says that this specific set is capable for the Stage 2
* North American TDIs equipped with a factory Luk clutch may not require a clutch upgrade. Applies to pre-2000 TDI models.

Bottom line though for my alh fleet, the dlc520 nozzle, Malone stage 2 tunes yields the best power to FE combo for the 11mm pump and for the 10mm pump, the dlc1019, Malone stage 2 is on par without equipment mods.

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I was looking at the DLC 520's but hadn't considered the 1019's. I have the stock 10mm installed. Thanks!

Well you don't specify at what speeds is your predominant driving. If it's mostly interstate driving with cruise control, a taller 5th gearset might be your best investment. That, with low rolling resistance tires, smoke-free DLC520 calibration (with the main expectation to refresh 220k injectors, not for performance enhancement) and an Eco tune will put you at your target. I don't see any single "magic" mod to give you say 5 mpg across the board without significant change of driving patterns, but that you are averaging 48 already suggests that you're on the right track and that there are no low-hanging fruit.

My starting point - 2000 NB, 4 speed automatic (with said 11mm pump)

252,000 miles - transmission replaced with a 5 speed manual, SMF clutch. MPG immediately jumped 8 MPG with no loss of power, and much better driveability (manual vs automatic). 4 Speed auto failed.

297,000 miles - fuel pump went out. In the process of figuring that out, my mechanic put PP205 nozzles on - car picked up more power (and lots more smoke). If driven carefully (i.e. to not smoke too much), MPG stayed about the same.

Summer following the nozzles - took car to Rocketchip. When I told him what I had and what I wanted - his first comment was "Smoke much ? <big grin>" - "Anytime I romp on the throttle". He started with a standard RC2 tune, then leaned out the map between 2000-3000 RPM (normal sedate driving range) to make the smoke more tolerable, but I can pull 5000 RPM still making power (and smoke). Estimate at this point - ~ 170% of stock HP and torque <big grin>. I can make smoke at both ends of the car , in 1st AND 2nd gear, on DRY PAVEMENT (I try to avoid this - save tire wear). As long as I have the clutch fully engaged, there's only a whiff of smoke when romping. Fanning the clutch is an instant invitation to lots of smoke. It can almost keep up with our 2015 Golf TDI. And I can still pull 48 MPG without the airconditioner, and about 45-46 MPG with the Airconditioner. I even have a best tank of 50.2 MPG on fuelly -defintely taken in cooler conditions so A/C wasn't necessary. It's quite driveable in snow and ice as well - I just chug along like nobody's business.

If I drove more highway, I would consider a taller 5th gear, but $500 is a bit pricey. I still use stock gearing.

A better ratio 5th gear did more for my mpg than tune and nozzles ever did. But then again, I don't drive it softly.

Lucias_D said:

Nozzles, tune, or both? Who has used one before the other, specifically nozzles before a tune and how did your mpg change. Please state what nozzles (size, etc.) and tune (brand, stage/settings) you had or have, and any aspects you did/didn't like about your setup.

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2003 Golf 4dr 5spd with 15" rubber currently. 227,000 miles on the odo.
I have the DLC520 nozzles and a ventectomy, but the car is otherwise bone stock...EGR and CAT are still intact and functional.
I'm doing about 35,000 miles per year, sometimes more, and at least 75% highway, often more.
I was getting 50 MPG with the stock nozzles, plus or minus 1-2 MPG depending on speeds and time of year. I hit 51+ a few times, and 48 a few times.
After installing the new nozzles, I definitely got more power, but I saw no noticeable change in my MPG.
I was able to do some pretty good back to back testing as I do a 600 mile round trip a couple times per month, and several other 300 mile round trips on the same highways, at the same speeds with the cruise on, and with diesel from the same station, and I was never able to look at my mileage and see a difference after installing the nozzles.

That's just my own experience...nothing more. Take it all with a grain of salt...'tis the internet after all.

Lucias_D said:

I was actually aiming more toward the low 50's. If I could hit 900 mile tanks that would be excellent and require right around 52.5mpg. This is NOT a Vanagon. Alh Golf 4dr 5spd with stock tire size and 5th gear

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I think you'll need more like 57 MPG to hit 900 miles in an 02 Golf...unless you've confirmed that you can get 17+ gallons in there without running out?

Rembrant said:

I think you'll need more like 57 MPG to hit 900 miles in an 02 Golf...unless you've confirmed that you can get 17+ gallons in there without running out?

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Whoops! You're right on. I'd still be happy with low-mid 50's but yeah, i'd need a bit more to squeeze 900 out of a tank. I have a ventectomy, but the most I've ever put in was 16.338 gallons. Too scared to run it dry. What do these tanks hold anyways? 16.5 or 17 up to the fuel cap?

Well you don't specify at what speeds is your predominant driving

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I drive around 64-69mph. If I can use cruise control (traffic dependent) I will use if for approximately ~1/2 of my journey. I do more 'target-load' cruise when I hit hills (eg. I'll keep my throttle position @ at a certain # and loose speed speed slowly as I'm going up the hill, but regain it on the backside). I have about 7 miles in town and another 85 on the freeway for my commute (round trip). I'm also pretty frugal with the A/C. I put on about 30,000miles/yr.

A better ratio 5th gear did more for my MPG than tune and nozzles ever did. But then again, I don't drive it softly.

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I've heard a lot of mixed experiences regarding MPG and this mod. Most seem to say that MPG stays about the same, however the reduction in RPM while cruising reduces the noise level in the cabin. Hard to find .681's now that they're discontinued. The .658 seems to be the closest now. I don't think I'd do that without a tune because I'd loose so much speed on the hills from the lost torque @ lower RPMS. Reducing cabin noise while cruising does seem very temping in it's own right

Lucias_D said:

Whoops! You're right on. I'd still be happy with low-mid 50's but yeah, i'd need a bit more to squeeze 900 out of a tank. I have a ventectomy, but the most I've ever put in was 16.338 gallons. Too scared to run it dry. What do these tanks hold anyways? 16.5 or 17 up to the fuel cap?

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I do believe 16.1 gallons is the most I've ever put in my Golf, and that was driving 30+ miles after the low fuel warning light came on, and I fill to the cap.

I think you'll run dry somewhere between 16.5 and 16.9 gallons on most of them. Just going by what I've read on here...I've never run out myself.

There have been people on here that hit 900 miles tanks, but they usually have to hit 59-60 mpg to do it.

I've eclipsed 800 mile tanks in my Green Golfs. Had to do it at least once. 800 miles is a lot of miles to run on a tank; if you're not out on long drives it takes a while to reach those miles; figure you have to drive most of the tank as though you're about ready to run out! Maybe when I'm older it'll be easier, but for now I just try to aim for getting 50mpg: I watch my UltraGuage.

A tune should allow you to bump up FE a bit because you're more optimized with a tune. Of course, this all depends on how you communicate things to your tuner (and to the nozzle installer/injector calibrator). I went with a stage 1 setting on the injectors: Blue Golf is set at Stage 3 (with 11mm IP it can flow a bit more)- this car is too new to me to have any FE numbers.

With say a stage 2 or greater tune you'll find it extremely hard to not hit the GO pedal: all of a sudden you'll have a gob of torque.

Again if you're aiming for anything above a 1.5 tune the odds are extremely high that you'll need to replace your clutch. Clutches will slip not when you're in lower gears and slamming the GO pedal; they slip when you're in a higher gear and go to accelerate mildly (add in a slight grade and it'll be pretty easy to make it slip).

I have squeezed 17.1 gallons in a Golf (2005 BEW). Also a functional EGR seems to help MPG a little bit during normal commuting. Probably not as much help on long trips though. 48MPG seems a little low but still good for an ALH - is it manual? Probably normal average for commuting as opposed to long drives.

I'm following because I may be replacing my Beetle (buy back) with a Jetta.

Jason

Lucias_D said:

First thing first. I don't want this thread going off the rails for "You spent $XXX.XX dollars on that! You'll have to drive [insert ridiculously high number] of miles to pay for itself comments. I get it, and I don't really care.

I've been hovering around 48mpg range for some time. I personally want the vehicle to hit low 50's easily.Vehicle has 220k on original injectors/nozzles. I'm also not an insane P&G guy. I'm not too concerned with power, so that's really just icing on my MPG cake . I'd be stoked if I could get 3MPG from these items.


Any feedback is appreciated!

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Reading between the lines, and as you've already stated you're not concerned with power, that leaves only an addicted hypermiler willing to dump $1000 into an older car that already gets high FE - for the sake of 3MPG. I'm not judging, only speaking from experience, because I used to be one of them.

But if that's the fix you need to get straight, get a tune - no nozzles required.

As a reformed hypermiler, I have only my friends to thank for helping me realize that there's more to life than high MPG, and the risk of running out of fuel chasing a big range number. I've been off meds for over a year now. The first step to my recovery was admitting I had a problem. There may be a HA meeting in your area with other hypermilers willing to help you through this.

Oilerlord said:

As a reformed hypermiler, I have only my friends to thank for helping me realize that there's more to life than high MPG, and the risk of running out of fuel chasing a big range number. I've been off meds for over a year now. The first step to my recovery was admitting I had a problem. There may be a HA meeting in your area with other hypermilers willing to help you through this.

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LOL. Thanks for the laugh, I'm a reformed Hypermiler myself. It is quite something to see...a man at the depth of a hypermiling binge...possessed by the fuel gauge...I know it well.

Rembrant said:

LOL. Thanks for the laugh, I'm a reformed Hypermiler myself. It is quite something to see...a man at the depth of a hypermiling binge...possessed by the fuel gauge...I know it well.

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You're welcome

I had a short relapse with the EV in June, but my HA sponsor helped me realize that at only $0.05 per kWh - returning to the seedy underworld of hypermiling wasn't worth throwing away all the progress I've made. I've since reduced the EV's tire pressure to a more "normal" 40 PSI.

Oilerlord said:

You're welcome
I had a short relapse with the EV in June, but my HA sponsor helped me realize that at only $0.05 per kWh - returning to the seedy underworld of hypermiling wasn't worth throwing away all the progress I've made. I've since reduced the EV's tire pressure to a more "normal" 40 PSI.

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I also laughed quite a bit a this. Maybe I'll start with a stage one tune and go from there. I'll just let my tuner know my priorities. Thanks for the info

Lucias_D said:

Whoops! You're right on. I'd still be happy with low-mid 50's but yeah, i'd need a bit more to squeeze 900 out of a tank. I have a ventectomy, but the most I've ever put in was 16.338 gallons. Too scared to run it dry. What do these tanks hold anyways? 16.5 or 17 up to the fuel cap?

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Just by chance today my fill-up took 16.33 Gallons (61.811 Liters)...that's the most I've ever put in it. Actually...it was a full service pump...and I kept telling the guy to keep fillin' it...lol. And, at a cost of $72.01 it was the most expensive fill-up since I've owned this car.

$72.01 for 16 gallons? Wow, here in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, diesel is $2.38/gallon. Filled up with gas in my Subaru in fernley, Nevada yesterday for $1.99 for 87 octane gas.
Sorry, I know this is off topic.

boertje said:

$72.01 for 16 gallons? Wow, here in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, diesel is $2.38/gallon. Filled up with gas in my Subaru in fernley, Nevada yesterday for $1.99 for 87 octane gas.
Sorry, I know this is off topic.

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Yessir, but keep in mind that is in CDN dollars. Converted to US, that's about $3.30/gallon. A friend of mine just got back from a trip to Oklahoma, and I thought he said that gas was either $1.60 or $1.65 while he was there.

It cost more than that in Canada when I started driving almost 30 years ago...LOL.

I guess I'll put in my 2c.

I had perfect stock nozzles (due to very long and spirited road trips) and they net me 52MPG as their best run and averaging 48 before I swapped over to DLC 1019's. Their first fill up netted me 56MPG before the winter cold showed up here. I also had a Malone Stage 3 done at the same time so I couldn't tell you the before and after of that.

As of late, I've been driving having the most fun out of my TDI since I got it. Hard launches every stop and all, good times, still managed 46MPG.

Now I'm slowly recovering from my hypermiling addiction so I can make this car experience what it can still be just like all the other TDIClub Jettas out there.

EDIT: The most I've ever put into my tank at once was something like 15.5 after the vent. Not gonna risk not being able to hit up the same gas station for a few extra miles on the tank.

Lots of the FE improvements from installing bigger nozzles is actually due to them being NEW and the old ones being, well, OLDer. Lots of miles = degradation, which equals reduced efficiency.

I liken all this to folks who nearly always state that a new clutch, even performance ones, installed after an old, and in many cases stock, clutch is "like butter." It's not that the new clutch is somehow dynamically smoother/easier as much as it's because it's new- the old clutch takes more effort to disengage due to the wear. This is universal with clutches, not just ours.

I've hit 800+ miles in my Green Golfs on one tank of fuel. Both have hit upwards of 55mpg on a tank. The most I try to do in order to achieve FE numbers is to back off on the right foot a bit in order to get my target average of 50mpg: this is on my car; I can drive it pretty hard and I'm still able to hit 50mpg- I drive mostly highway; and, my car just runs so well. I have no intention of doing 800+ again as it's tedious as heck.

Great FE and the torque rush. A one-two-punch. That's why these things are so great. I feel that I have achieved the perfect balance: and I know someone else who has; it's why I bought one of his cars! (now running three Golfs with Malone 2 tunes and DLC520s)

I'm not even getting 800 KILOMETRES out of a tank. Mostly city driving but still nowhere near the mileage others get... 05 Jetta BEW engine. 330k km on the clock. Suggestions?

@KiwiCanuck - DSG or manual? Tire pressure? Low rolling resistance tires? Clean air filter? New fuel filter? Speed limit or faster? Checked for dragging brakes? Use a/c? Hard on accelerator? Coast up to stop lights? Carrying extra weight around (tools, booster pack, etc)? Fill to brim (see the fuel) or stop when the pump does the first time?

Oilerlord said:

Reading between the lines, and as you've already stated you're not concerned with power, that leaves only an addicted hypermiler willing to dump $1000 into an older car that already gets high FE - for the sake of 3MPG. I'm not judging, only speaking from experience, because I used to be one of them.
But if that's the fix you need to get straight, get a tune - no nozzles required.
As a reformed hypermiler, I have only my friends to thank for helping me realize that there's more to life than high MPG, and the risk of running out of fuel chasing a big range number. I've been off meds for over a year now. The first step to my recovery was admitting I had a problem. There may be a HA meeting in your area with other hypermilers willing to help you through this.

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Thanks for the post, made my morning.

KiwiCanuck said:

I'm not even getting 800 KILOMETRES out of a tank. Mostly city driving but still nowhere near the mileage others get... 05 Jetta BEW engine. 330k km on the clock. Suggestions?

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PD's don't get as good as an ALH. Very few get good MPG with these. The best tank I got with my current PD was 850 km's, now I hover around 650-750 ish, and has 380K. My first 05 PD averaged 800 km's per tank combined, best of 850 on the highway, but that had 150k on her. Edit, both 5 speed wagon's and I don't drive for mileage.

But there are things to check, is the engine getting warm? Brakes dragging? Cam going flat? Etc. Injectors are probably worn if original.

bigkahuna360 said:

I guess I'll put in my 2c.
I had perfect stock nozzles (due to very long and spirited road trips) and they net me 52MPG as their best run and averaging 48 before I swapped over to DLC 1019's. Their first fill up netted me 56MPG before the winter cold showed up here. I also had a Malone Stage 3 done at the same time so I couldn't tell you the before and after of that...

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I must say I've been meaning to run some Diesel Purge through my injectors to see if it makes a difference, but haven't had enough time to set it up. I did however add a can of BG244 to my fuel system. That and a combination of slower drives as of late has given a steady rise to my last few fill ups. Hopefully I'm over 53mpg this tank! Corridor driving is especially helpful for me as the Golf does not have very good aero. One of these days I'll start posting in the monthly mileage thread...

Lucias_D said:

I must say I've been meaning to run some Diesel Purge through my injectors to see if it makes a difference, but haven't had enough time to set it up. I did however add a can of BG244 to my fuel system. That and a combination of slower drives as of late has given a steady rise to my last few fill ups. Hopefully I'm over 53mpg this tank! Corridor driving is especially helpful for me as the Golf does not have very good aero. One of these days I'll start posting in the monthly mileage thread...

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I ran DieselPurge and Power Service through my system a few times over the course the summer, but never really saw a difference in economy so much. Power Service seemed to make the car drive a bit nicer though. Drive it hard once in a while and I doubt you'll really ever need it.

A lot of my driving was 45MPH with a high of 60MPH, coasting in gear to stops, light acceleration. I would think the Golf would get slightly better mileage than the Jetta being ~200lbs lighter?

KiwiCanuck said:

I'm not even getting 800 KILOMETRES out of a tank. Mostly city driving but still nowhere near the mileage others get... 05 Jetta BEW engine. 330k km on the clock. Suggestions?

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It's the "mostly city" start-stop driving that's killing your FE - especially if you're only making short trips when the engine is cold. Preserving momentum is the key to high mpg with all cars. At the depths of my addiction, I once recorded 701.9 miles (1129 kms) with my JSW but as I recall, there was only about 30% city hypermiling (oops, I mean "driving") involved in putting up that number. I could go into detail, but I'm already getting a little twitchy and don't want to risk losing my 1-year chip in a moment of weakness.