Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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bhtooefr

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How many people actually use a diesel to do the Denver-KC or Denver-SLC run? Something tells me that the vast majority don't, meaning, no, you don't need a diesel to get anywhere else. Granted, the gassers are only taking 5 minutes on a refueling stop, but still, I did a 2000 mile road trip (to TDIFest 2015, actually) in a gasser that could barely pull over 300 miles per tank - I generally needed to take a bathroom break between every refueling stop anyway, which would be well-spaced to Supercharge a Tesla.

Now, it also depends on your needs. If you're regularly driving crazy long distances, then no, a non-Tesla BEV won't work. (Even the Bolt won't work, its charging is too slow, and CCS isn't that widely deployed.)

In any case, in a Model S, on the Denver-SLC run, I'd probably charge at Glenwood Springs and Green River. Add a stop or two if it's a 60 kWh car, or just hang out longer to get more charge at those two. On the Denver-KC run, I'd probably charge at Goodland, Hays, and Topeka, or in a 60 kWh car, add a few minutes at Limon, and also stop in Salina for a few minutes, for the sake of comfort. (You might be able to stretch it further between stations, but you'll have to use more of the SoC range of the battery, slowing you down overall.)
 
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bhtooefr

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But how many people drive it in vehicles that can't do it non-stop? It's 522-525 miles depending on route to get there, there's a lot of gassers that don't have that much range. (One of my current (port-injected) gassers actually can do it, but the other one can't even come close.)

And, how many people actually drive it non-stop? If I were driving it, I'd need to stop at least twice for bathroom breaks if nothing else.
 

aja8888

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Houston to West Texas was a routine run for me (oil & gas projects). Drove most of the time. Usually one stop for bathroom and coffee. Ten minutes at most, even with fuel. 600 miles was a one day deal.

Some runs are south of Midland and you can go for 100's of miles with no anything (gas, diesel, etc).

Electric car? NOT
 

rotarykid

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I know many people who regularly travel these distances non-stop or on one stop.....

How many people actually use a diesel to do the Denver-KC or Denver-SLC run? Something tells me that the vast majority don't, meaning, no, you don't need a diesel to get anywhere else. Granted, the gassers are only taking 5 minutes on a refueling stop, but still, I did a 2000 mile road trip (to TDIFest 2015, actually) in a gasser that could barely pull over 300 miles per tank - I generally needed to take a bathroom break between every refueling stop anyway, which would be well-spaced to Supercharge a Tesla.

Now, it also depends on your needs. If you're regularly driving crazy long distances, then no, a non-Tesla BEV won't work. (Even the Bolt won't work, its charging is too slow, and CCS isn't that widely deployed.)

In any case, in a Model S, on the Denver-SLC run, I'd probably charge at Glenwood Springs and Green River. Add a stop or two if it's a 60 kWh car, or just hang out longer to get more charge at those two. On the Denver-KC run, I'd probably charge at Goodland, Hays, and Topeka, or in a 60 kWh car, add a few minutes at Limon, and also stop in Salina for a few minutes, for the sake of comfort. (You might be able to stretch it further between stations, but you'll have to use more of the SoC range of the battery, slowing you down overall.)
In my travels across the region I have seen exactly ONE Tesla on the road! So that at current pie in the sky/vapor ware model is current irrelevant to this discussion...It can be added, becomes relevant to the discussion, when or if it becomes more widely available....

My points are related to what can actually be purchased for similar or a lot less money today...

In this region there are plenty of diesel pickups with large tanks that are regularly used to make these drives. I know personally of 10 people who have old & current chrysler diesel pickup offerings that regularly make these drives, non-stop(can do it non-stop) or one stop....

I know of similar numbers of TDI-CR owners who regularly make these kind of drives, non-stop or with one short stop. ....

Then compare that to the numbers of people in the region with the best of current fuel sipping direct injection gasoline engine'd offerings who also can easily and do make this drive on one stop.....my points are shown to be valid....

I have in recent years owned & driven chevy 5.7 pickups with ~40 gal in their 35 gal rated tanks that could & did more than a few times easily make it @ 75-85 mph from Denver to KC or Salt lake non-stop on a single fill. I have recently been a passenger in a late model chrysler diesel pickup with a similar fill that made these drives these distances with fuel to spare upon arrival. I have owned Accords that when they were fueled until filler neck stayed full on a couple of trips made it from Denver to Salt Lake non-stop on a single fill @ 75-85 mph.....

So those ratings given can be exceeded if right at the time of leaving upon the trip the vehicle is fueled to brim, with based on my experience in any vehicle is at least 2.7-3.5 gals above tank maximum ratings.....

Also consider the fact that anyone who must make these drives regularly for sure knows how much extra can be trickled in before you start a long drive! Which means before they start they know exactly how far,

They know exactly the station they must plan on stopping at along their required drive before they start....
 

GoFaster

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We've already gone around all that in this very thread.

EVs won't be all things to all people in the foreseeable future. But they don't HAVE to be all things to all people. They only have to be "good enough for most people".

If your normal driving patterns include vast travel distances and/or through scarcely-inhabited regions with no charging stations then an EV is not for you. And that's OK!

But most people - particularly the "most people" who live in cities that are most subject to pollution problems anyhow - don't drive like that.

I'm a high mileage driver myself due to my job. But I've done the EV plausibility check. One of the higher Tesla models will do the job but it's out of my price range. The current range of lower-priced EVs are totally inadequate. A Chevrolet Bolt would match my daily commuting needs quite well given that I have another vehicle (gas engine) that is used for hauling stuff and for vacations.

Different job site every day and often two different sites. Average 160 km per work day. Exceeding 320 km per work day only happens (irregularly) about once every month or two, and a Toronto-Windsor-Toronto (about 650 km) happens a couple times per year. If and when they put Level 3 CCS charging stations at all of the OnRoute service centers then I would be able to use it for ALL of my work related travel. It would add whatever time for a full recharge (or two 80% charges) to a Toronto-Windsor-Toronto a couple times per year and I would need to stop for a "splash" once a month or so. I would be able to make it from my place to my sister's place (160 km) and back without a recharge.

I didn't buy one because they're not available in Canada yet, and Level 3 charging at the places where I would need it hasn't actually been deployed yet.
 

rotarykid

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in western region 600-1,000miles are normal distances that need be crossed in a day

But how many people drive it in vehicles that can't do it non-stop? It's 522-525 miles depending on route to get there, there's a lot of gassers that don't have that much range. (One of my current (port-injected) gassers actually can do it, but the other one can't even come close.)

And, how many people actually drive it non-stop? If I were driving it, I'd need to stop at least twice for bathroom breaks if nothing else.
I have to ask, how far is the farthest distance you have ever been required to cross on a regular basis?

If you live in the western region 600-1,000 miles are normal distances that need to be crossed in one day by most on a regular basis for family & for business reasons...

When you must cross a distance you find there are things you can do that you wouldn't do if you didn't.....

In my Corolla with it's rated 13 gal tank 15.3 is easy to reach giving the car ~530 miles between fills before you risk empty. My Accord with it's rated ~16 gal tank was easy to fill to just shy of 20 gals(~19.7 of available fuel with car still running at the time of fill)!

So all the manufacturer fill ratings are in my experience at a minimum 2.5 to 3.7 gals below actual max fill quantity available......Add this quantity to your ratings then do the math, that will give you the actual maximum miles per tanks....That will show many more offerings for sale today than claimed can reach easily that 600+ mile per fill mark.....

So in my experience anyone who must make any of these long drives with regularity for sure as soon as the opportunity is given are going to fill to the top of the filler neck at least once before the drive to see what the actual max fill is and how far the vehicle can go on that fill.....

I have done this in every vehicle I have ever owned, just as anyone who must make this drive does when they first get their vehicle in this region...
 

Oilerlord

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Lets see.....
As Brian mentioned, we've been around the block on the pros / cons of EV's vs our beloved diesels. I"m not asking you to buy an EV, and I won't even attempt to list the "pros" side of the ledger because you've already come to the conclusion that driving electric isn't for you. All I'll say is from experience, I drive both, and love both, but for different reasons.
 

Oilerlord

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My TDi golf beats any EV
Not to mention the range differential (and cost)
My used Mercedes EV cost $2000 less than my used JSW TDI ($23,000 vs $25,000). It also had 3000 fewer miles on it (6,000 vs 9,000). Both cars are similarly equipped, though the Mercedes is more luxurious.

So far, I've put 8,000 miles with my EV in the last 8 months. My total fuel cost is about 90 bucks, and I haven't had to do (or pay for) an oil change. The insurance for my EV costs $50 less per year than my TDI too.

The range differential (at least in my experience) is irrelevant. I'll just drive my wife's car should the need arise for the occasional longer trip.
 
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john.jackson9213

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Using an electric car for long distance trips right now is not their primary use. Plain and simple. So that is just a red herring.

Having a bladder with a range of 700 miles would be great for long distance trips would be great. I just don't have one. Most of us don't have one, especially on a family trip.

Anita's Camry can go 500 miles on one tank of regular gas. A Chevy Volt can go 700 miles or more on one tank of regular gas.

But most of our trips are within 100 miles of home. An EV could work just fine for us 95% plus of the time. Maybe 3 times a year we take a long road trip. Anita's Camry will be just fine for that. If I need to haul something - well I have an old Jeep pickup for that and it works well. Drove the old Jeep across the country and back home twice last summer, total 15000 miles in two trips.
 

bhtooefr

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Eh, no, a Volt can only do about 430 EPA range on a full charge and full tank, so getting into the 700 mile club would take hypermiling. It's got a small tank, and doesn't get amazing mileage.

In any case, overfilling tanks, as rotarykid suggests, can cause severe damage to emissions control systems on gassers.
 

rotarykid

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Eh, no, a Volt can only do about 430 EPA range on a full charge and full tank, so getting into the 700 mile club would take hypermiling. It's got a small tank, and doesn't get amazing mileage.

In any case, overfilling tanks, as rotarykid suggests, can cause severe damage to emissions control systems on gassers.
"Yes" it can cause damage if you fill it then park it!

But I have not suggested doing this then not running it to empty on anything!

I challenge anyone to prove that this practice could do anything bad if you do it then immediately drive the vehicle until empty not giving the overfill time to do any damage. I have been doing this to all sorts of vehicles for the last 40 years over hundred of thousands of miles clocked off of overfilled tanks and have never had any issue! Not a single problem....Doing this the overfill will last less than ~20 mins...
 

rotarykid

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No CAFE, NO Zero Emissions requirements ~ no electric or diesel option offered!

Since so many seemed to have missed the point here it is again.....

For those who have decided electric's with the tax credits they give today to meet coming CAFE increase rules are the way of the future, the first nail in the electric's coffin today with the orange one's proclamation of his intent to cut EPA rules on heavy & light truck gasoline engine emissions(the real polluters today and for the last three decades).... Along with the immediate end of coming increases in CAFE requirements on all vehicles....

The next nail in that coffin will be put into efforts to clean up air in California along with the other CARB states is the current discussions be put out their by his parroting menians on their plans to try to pull CARB's waivers for emissions & state CAFE rules....

Along with their plans on removal of CARB's current waiver given power to implement PZE & ZE emissions requirements which all agree would be the death knell of the electric car option in the US.....

Nothing yet on changes to more practical auto class diesel emissions, since these changes would cost the orange arse's buddies money from the reduced fuel consumption this change would give to the US fleet.....

Two points,.....

First is who will put out the ~$40k sticker for a spark if tax credits go away as trump wants to happen?

Second is, and this is a biggie@! Will auto makers continue to offer diesels in anything this time when CAFE goes back to almost nothing again that requires they be offered to comply with law & avoid gas guzzler fees???

For those who do not know they chose not to the last time CAFE was ended or cut to nothing in 1985? Within one model year 86-87 we went from a real world CAFE of ~40mpgUS with all offerings sold with a fuel sipping diesel engine to no diesels sold in anything when requirements dropped to ~24mpgUS in 1987....

__________________________________________________ ______

Now if the orange one gets his way he has made it clear he would like to do this again taking away the current pressures of CAFE which has forced even hold out Ford to introduce a diesel option in their light duty class pickups. This requirement goes away will we even see this diesel option>>>???<<<<

Electrics are sold here for one reason, to meet CARBs zero emissions mandate. They are money looser's today so are only offered outside of CARB areas for the boost they give to a company's CAFE ...

Diesels are offered to increase a company's CAFE, no other reason in light duty offerings. You remove CAFE requirements automakers will stop offering them again in their light duty fleets!

You remove either of those requirements which today require the offering of both to get company's numbers above current and coming in law target as trump wants to do, automakers loose incentive to sell electrics & diesels!
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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My used Mercedes EV cost $2000 less than my used JSW TDI ($23,000 vs $25,000). It also had 3000 fewer miles on it (6,000 vs 9,000). Both cars are similarly equipped, though the Mercedes is more luxurious.

So far, I've put 8,000 miles with my EV in the last 8 months. My total fuel cost is about 90 bucks, and I haven't had to do (or pay for) an oil change. The insurance for my EV costs $50 less per year than my TDI too.

The range differential (at least in my experience) is irrelevant. I'll just drive my wife's car should the need arise for the occasional longer trip.
Thanks for the up-date:)
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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Since so many seemed to have missed the point here it is again.....




Electrics are sold here for one reason, to meet CARBs zero emissions mandate. They are money looser's today so are only offered outside of CARB areas for the boost they give to a company's CAFE ...

Diesels are offered to increase a company's CAFE, no other reason in light duty offerings. You remove CAFE requirements automakers will stop offering them again in their light duty fleets!

You remove either of those requirements which today require the offering of both to get company's numbers above current and coming in law target as trump wants to do, automakers loose incentive to sell electrics & diesels!

Point taken:rolleyes:
 

kjclow

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Two points,.....

First is who will put out the ~$40k sticker for a spark if tax credits go away?


Now if the orange one gets his way he has made it clear he would like to do this again taking away the current pressures of CAFE which has forced even hold out Ford to introduce a diesel option in their light duty class pickups. This requirement goes away will we even see this diesel option>>>???<<<<
I have not considered an electric primarily becasue the return costs make even less sense than a diesel, for my situation. A tax credit would help except that I haven't had to pay extra taxes for at least the last six years and North Carolina does not offer any additional credits. So, I will not be buying a spark/leaf etc. for $40K when I can buy a lot of other cars that fit my current needs better for less money.

If Trump gets the CAFE standards relaxed, Ford will probably kill the diesel F150. I don't remember if Ford had plans for the diesels like GM did prior to the car market implosion several years back. I know that killed the GM 1500 series with a diesel.
 

bhtooefr

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Ford stretched the 3.6 Peugeot/Ford-designed Jaguar/Land Rover V8 diesel to a 4.4 for the F-150, then cancelled it, back then.
 

El Dobro

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Eh, no, a Volt can only do about 430 EPA range on a full charge and full tank, so getting into the 700 mile club would take hypermiling. It's got a small tank, and doesn't get amazing mileage.
In any case, overfilling tanks, as rotarykid suggests, can cause severe damage to emissions control systems on gassers.
The Volt's range works perfectly with my bladder's range.
The Volt's and the plug in Prii's EVAP systems are not the same as a standard gasser. The cars won't release the fuel door until they are ready to receive fuel and even at that, they have a window in which to fill up. I wouldn't mess with trying to top them off.
 

kjclow

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How many people actually use a diesel to do the Denver-KC or Denver-SLC run?
While I'm not driving anywhere out of or into Denver, I am driving from Charlotte to South Bend, In at least quarterly. Have to play grandpa! That's just over 700 miles each way. I try to stop every hour to at least use the restroom and stretch my legs. It's as much for comfort as for safety. Most stops are less than 10 minutes. I typically try to refuel around 500 miles on the JSW. Next trip, we will be taking the Canyon and pulling a trailer. Then refuel stops will be every 300 miles.
 

bhtooefr

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Yeah, I mean, my Miata works fine with my bladder range, and that's doing good to get much over 300 miles - ostensibly I can push to around 380, but past 300, the range anxiety starts kicking in. Every other stop was usually for fuel in that car (I don't roadtrip in it any more, the cabin is way too damn noisy on the freeway). I'd also align meals with the Miata's range - refueling stops were also where I'd grab a bite to eat, and I prefer to do that out of the car. So, a refueling stop, I'd usually lose 20-30 minutes - fuel, bathroom, food - or more if I specifically chose somewhere with an interesting restaurant, not just a truck stop/service plaza. That would get a Tesla enough range to make it to the next bathroom break, which is usually on the order of 3-5 minutes (so those would be slower).

But, I'm just saying that a Volt's not doing 700 miles on a tank, you'll have to stop to put more PUG or RUG (depending on generation) in it. That stop isn't an undue burden, and it's a useful opportunity to stretch one's legs anyway, but it is going to happen.

In any case, in the Prius, I aim for about 500-600 miles per tank on a roadtrip - I can go deeper into the tank, but why push it? That usually translates to every 3rd or 4th stop being for fuel. Food gets desynchronized with fuel stops there, usually. (My last road trip, I was getting under 500 mile tanks, and fueling every 2nd or 3rd stop (instead going longer on some stops), but that was partially because a lot of it was on the New York Thruway and was at the mercy of when a service plaza was available, and partially because I wasn't getting amazing mileage.)
 
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Oilerlord

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I'd rather not get into the politics of tax credits, big oil, the environment, or the whims of the great pumpkin. If incentives for EV's disappear, there's nothing that anyone on this board can do about it. EV Incentives are available to everyone (in the US), if you choose not to drive an EV, because you're taking a political stand, or you drive 500 miles per day,...that's a choice I can respect, but respect goes both ways.

I found a 60 amp L2 charger at a local campus that's on a route I take to see a regular customer. The spot has always been open, and supplies nearly 9kW to my battery. I'll bring my laptop to catch up on work, grab lunch or a coffee, and charge up for a couple of hours for "free". I know some people may think I'm gaming the system, or that I'm somehow doing something terribly unfair to everyone else. The reality is, this privilege is available to everyone. The campus cafeteria gets my business. We both win.
 

VeeDubTDI

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I don't think anyone is recommending attempting to use a low-range BEV for interstate travel through the western mountains. That would be ridiculous at best, and likely impossible due to a lack of charging infrastructure (aside from campgrounds and Tesla Superchargers).
 

aja8888

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I don't think anyone is recommending attempting to use a low-range BEV for interstate travel through the western mountains. That would be ridiculous at best, and likely impossible due to a lack of charging infrastructure (aside from campgrounds and Tesla Superchargers).
The above is why many people would rather have one vehicle that can go to all places with the minimum of annoyances (or appropriate infrastructure). From an economic standpoint, that's the best solution. This is where the ICE/hybrid vehicles shine. And our country has been built out to accommodate it.

From a personal standpoint, I have no need or desire to purchase an electric car. It would be a special purpose vehicle for us and we don't need (or want) the additional cost, even if it saves a few bucks on fuel.
 

john.jackson9213

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I'd rather not get into the politics of tax credits, big oil, the environment, or the whims of the great pumpkin. If incentives for EV's disappear, there's nothing that anyone on this board can do about it. EV Incentives are available to everyone (in the US), if you choose not to drive an EV, because you're taking a political stand, or you drive 500 miles per day,...that's a choice I can respect, but respect goes both ways.

I found a 60 amp L2 charger at a local campus that's on a route I take to see a regular customer. The spot has always been open, and supplies nearly 9kW to my battery. I'll bring my laptop to catch up on work, grab lunch or a coffee, and charge up for a couple of hours for "free". I know some people may think I'm gaming the system, or that I'm somehow doing something terribly unfair to everyone else. The reality is, this privilege is available to everyone. The campus cafeteria gets my business. We both win.
Sounds good to me.
 

rotarykid

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While I'm not driving anywhere out of or into Denver, I am driving from Charlotte to South Bend, In at least quarterly. Have to play grandpa! That's just over 700 miles each way.

I try to stop every hour to at least use the restroom and stretch my legs. It's as much for comfort as for safety. Most stops are less than 10 minutes.

I typically try to refuel around 500 miles on the JSW. Next trip, we will be taking the Canyon and pulling a trailer. Then refuel stops will be every 300 miles.

Sounds great! Glad you get to see your family like this as often as you want to....I know that drive well,....

Over the years I have many times made the drive from the Charlotte area up to the Ann Arbor, Detroit & Windsor Ont area on one fuel stop at the end of the drive in my A2 Jetta Ds & TDs(~650 mile per tank range on a max fill)......

How long does that drive take you? If memory serves with one stop for fuel at the end it could be done in 10-11 1/2 hours....

Over the years I have made drives all across that region of Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, & Ontario there are good high speed freeways that can safely & comfortably sustain 75-80mph for the entire drive.....

And in today's traffic with 70 posted across the region these are normal observable averages, speeds that for the most part are allowed during good weather in light traffic times....

I am wondering what effect Michigan's coming 75 interstate/65 two lane posted will have on other states legislatures, on whether this will soon become the posted limit across the region again...Ohio has several times in recent years tried to push speeds allowed to 75, we will see if they are successful this time now that pear pressures are now about to be applied from Michigan's change in speed law soon going into effect....

_____________________________________________________
 

kjclow

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Typically it's about 12 hours. The closer to South Bend, you either have to give up toll roads or drive extra miles. We've think the best route is cross country from South Bend through Fort Wayne down the Columbus.

She turns one in a few days, so we've got to make the effort to see the very fast changes.
 

rotarykid

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Unlike a similar distances across the great plains from my own observations these southern to midwestern US & to Canada drives can easily accommodate as many stops as you wish to have along your journey, day & night....

Fuel is always available, cell phones always work 24h/7d over these midwestern US & Canadian drives.....

And a 10-12 hour drive is not a problem if that is as far as you have to go.....

It seems that some making argument here have no comprehension of the empty western US that many of us must cross with regularity!

FACT!~ In much of the west there are No airports, hours are required of driving with no services of any type to get fuel or food at night, cell phones do not work with city plans,

(You need to know that cell phones do not work out here unless you can find a roaming signal! On a city plan every minute is $$$ when there is a roaming signal....

And there are many miles with no cell signal what-so-ever available even in roaming....

Many carries loose signal on their network at the edge of the metro areas, so for the next 8-10 hours most of time your phone will not work!)

there are only long hundred's of miles of rural ribbons of empty two lane highways....

Western US region drives across the plains can sometimes go on for hundreds of miles at night where there is not a place open to fuel up at along highways that cross southern or central CO into Kansas or Nebraska.

Consider that Even if you start early in the day you will end up driving at night while all services are closed during some of it....

And Wyoming, Nebraska, Montana, & Utah is even worse, after ~10pm in summer, 8-9 pm in winter while crossing some of it's big empties off of the interstates.....

Two lane highways are today across the region posted @ 65-75, pretty much as fast as you feel safe after midnight once normal routine patrols end for the day .....

So if you crash, breakdown or run our of fuel you are going to be there on the side of the road likely for a while before someone finds you since traffic is light and police are not routinely out on these roads after 10-11 pm until 5-6 am at the earliest(*unless they are out on a call or during a weather emergency)....

In Colorado US 34, 36 & 50 along with I-25 south of Pueblo, I-70 & I-76 are all pretty much after ~11pm unpatrolled until ~5-6 am when patrols begin again in the morning, so running out of fuel here is also a really bad idea outside of the summer heavier travel months when traffic is less sparse overnight....

Take into account that nothing is open after ~10pm summer/8-9pm winter, cell phones do not work across most of the rural region's empty miles.... so at night there is no fuel to get at any price, no cell service(they do not work even on roam), or no bathrooms....

I believe anyone who has not been here really does not get or comprehend what this big empty is like to cross!

There are a very few compost toilets every couple of hundred miles run by the state so for miles & hours places to stop are non-existent. More than a few times on one of those US highways the only bathroom was in the weeds along the side of the road where the rattle snakes live....


While a drive across the midwest is long in miles, taking hours of fairly high speed travel to make in a one day time period, the big differences are that stops are plentiful along the way....

Compare that to travel across the west off of the interstate is really like driving on another planet.....

And I am not saying midwest drives are not a long and hard to do drives. The drives are, but for the entire trips across anywhere in the midwest there simply are not any real big empties(no services, no cell phones, ect....) like there are out west...

Driving for hours on end across the west you will not see another vehicle for most of night from any direction for most of night...

I have on a trip not seen another person or vehicle for ~6 hours at a time from 10pm to 4am.....

Compare that to a drive across the east or the full of cities & people midwest and even in these areas middle of the night traffic is flowing fairly regularly around for the entire trip....

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Also consider the fact that a fill to brim tankof fuel at the beginning of the drive can save $$$'s(in the middle of nowhere fuel/gas can/does usually cost at a minimum $0.30-0.50 or more per gal)...

These distances cannot be crossed in a single day without some of drive being at night when everything is closed, no fuel at any price to be got...

And the fact that across many miles at night there is no fuel to be got at any price....you run out you are sleeping in your vehicle!

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Believe me, I had seen pictures of this region before I came here, but I have to say I had no comprehension of the place until I crossed.....

I literally had no idea that a place like this, a place this big that takes this long to get across, a place with so few people where you can see so far without obstruction existed anywhere!

I do not believe anyone who has never been here can really comprehend how empty these areas are, how few services are available at night, the fact that cell phones do not work across most of these empty miles......

There is a big difference between traveling ~600-700 miles for pleasure in the east & midwest....

Compared to going 600-1,000-1,600 miles for work or for business reasons with very limited time to get there & back, along with very limited time to do what needs to be done while you are there...these trips really do not compare in any way other than actual miles traveled....


Consider how far do you really need to go, how long you have to make the trip & how long you have for your visit, when you must be home again....remember that once you leave town you cell phone will not work for most of drive....

Now consider making a trip if you have a limited time to make the trip, limited time to do what you need to do, and you must be back home at a certain day?

Turning one of these long drives into a leisurely drive with stops every hour or so can/will turn that one day drive each way into a week of travel there & back! That is great if you do this once a year or once every 10 years.....

BUT, How many here have a free week to throw away to get where you need to go & back every few months, with the added costs that will be added from a week in a motel/hotel..????..
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
RK - leave El Paso, TX heading east on I-10 with a full tank, set the cruise at 85 (5 over) and sit back for the next 7 hours of pretty much nothing. :) (well, you can find fuel if you plan it right, but don't plan it wrong)
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
(You need to know that cell phones do not work out here unless you can find a roaming signal! On a city plan every minute is $$$ when there is a roaming signal....
I'm sorry, I thought this was 2017, not 2002.

I don't think there's even such a thing as a "city plan" any more, everyone offers national plans with unlimited free roaming.
 
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